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Old 08-06-2006, 08:19 PM   #676
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Assuming everything goes well and we give a seminar in the eastcoast Justin can get an upclose and personal demo from Ark of "Mike's" test.

Without the airshield.

I think that'd provide more than enough material for you to write about it here.
Oh, of course I can, just like Mike, or anyone else, can post a video of the Teacher Test for us all to talk about.

Last edited by statisticool : 08-06-2006 at 08:21 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:36 PM   #677
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Oh, of course I can, just like Mike, or anyone else, can post a video of the Teacher Test for us all to talk about.
For all practical purposes, the "teacher test" is simply asking someone to do a no-inch hit with their palm... without any drawback and especially without letting the shoulder do the work, draw back, etc. The point is that if someone is a "teacher" of an internal art that is supposed to "move from the hara", they shouldn't do a hit with the shoulder, now should they?

Do you know how to do that, Justin? Or were you just offering to critique, as usual, something that you don't really know anything about?

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:42 PM   #678
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
As you didn't address, you've already seen CMC talk about the ground, and he was Smith's teacher, you know. That Smith doesn't use the description/term another person uses is moot.
No, Cheng knew what the term was. Smith didn't. Smith and a lot of westerners were simply ignorant of what jin was. That's why they kept translating it as "intrinsic energy" . I can debate this to a standstill, Justin. So far you're just offering your usual negative speculation and questions. Give us some facts. Your loose idea that because Cheng knew it was from the ground meant the Smith understood jin is ridiculous. I've said "groundpath" a number of times and you know it's "from the ground"... does that mean that you know what it is and can do it? No, of course not.


Mike
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:01 PM   #679
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
For all practical purposes, the "teacher test" is simply asking someone to do a no-inch hit with their palm... without any drawback and especially without letting the shoulder do the work, draw back, etc. The point is that if someone is a "teacher" of an internal art that is supposed to "move from the hara", they shouldn't do a hit with the shoulder, now should they?

Do you know how to do that, Justin? Or were you just offering to critique, as usual, something that you don't really know anything about?

Mike Sigman
Ok, so you refuse to.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:02 PM   #680
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I can see how questions can make one agitated if they don't like people questioning their beliefs.



Typically when one asks a question it is because they are trying to find out.

As you didn't address, you've already seen CMC talk about the ground, and he was Smith's teacher, you know. That Smith doesn't use the description/term another person uses is moot.



That is pretty vague.
oh poo...

p
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:03 PM   #681
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Ok, so you refuse to.
Oh, poo.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:41 PM   #682
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Smith didn't. Smith and a lot of westerners were simply ignorant of what jin was. That's why they kept translating it as "intrinsic energy" . I can debate this to a standstill, Justin.
I'm sure you can. And I'm sure you can continue being incorrect.

For example, page 5 of T'ai Chi: The "Supreme Ultimate" Exercise for Health, Sport, and Self-Defense, by Zheng and Smith, shows:

Quote:
"W.T. Chan has well observed that "ch'i denotes the psychophysiological power associated with blood and breath," or another English equivalent might be "intrinsic energy".
To break it down for you, this shows that they were talking about qi possibly being described as 'intrinsic energy', not jin. You can count this as an example of facts you requested.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-06-2006, 10:48 PM   #683
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I'm sure you can. And I'm sure you can continue being incorrect.

For example, page 5 of T'ai Chi: The "Supreme Ultimate" Exercise for Health, Sport, and Self-Defense, by Zheng and Smith, shows:



To break it down for you, this shows that they were talking about qi possibly being described as 'intrinsic energy', not jin. You can count this as an example of facts you requested.
Yeah, well, you're over your head in this one, so stoppit. Jin is the physical manifestation of qi... Smith never understood that. He proof-read some of his own books and made horrendous mistakes. When they had to translate "ch'in" or "jin", they translated it as "intrinsic energy". There have been long discussions about this on some forums and private emails. The mistake of calling "jin" as "energy" is well-known. Quit looking for *anything*, even when you don't know the subject, to pick a quarrel with. I'm about to join a few others and stick you on ignore unless you can show that you have some substantive knowledge of some, of *any* subject, related to martial arts. So far you haven't contributed anything positive or anything with useable knowledge. You've only shown that you like to nitpick. Last chance.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2006, 11:42 PM   #684
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mike,

Justin is over his head on most of this as he has little or no experience that anyone has been able to ascertain other than appealing to authority on video clips from youtube, quotes from websites, and books.
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:08 AM   #685
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Yeah, well, you're over your head in this one, so stoppit.
One can surely grasp the concept that one is not able to order others around.

Quote:
Jin is the physical manifestation of qi... Smith never understood that.
Here we see the story change somewhat. Before, it was said, and I quote:

Quote:
Smith and a lot of westerners were simply ignorant of what jin was. That's why they kept translating it ["it" referring to jin- Justin]as "intrinsic energy" .
to which it was showed with an actual reference that Smith and Zheng (I can't speak to the vague "a lot of westerners" that one keeps referring to) in their book said it was reasonable to describe qi as intrinsic energy.

So yes, one was incorrect when one said Smith translated jin as intrinsic energy, since it was showed he said it was reasonable to describe qi as intrinsic energy. The unsupported claim that Smith didn't understand that jin is a physical manifestation of qi is a red herring.

Quote:
I'm about to join a few others and stick you on ignore unless...
One, and mystery 'others', are encouraged to use that feature of the bulletin board software at any time they see fit, of course. That, of course, has no bearing on any argument.

Quote:
For all practical purposes, the "teacher test" is simply asking someone to do a no-inch hit with their palm... without any drawback and especially without letting the shoulder do the work, draw back, etc. The point is that if someone is a "teacher" of an internal art that is supposed to "move from the hara", they shouldn't do a hit with the shoulder, now should they?

Do you know how to do that, Justin?
The one claiming theories for the above, the one claiming to be able to do the above, and the one who claims that such a demonstration is meaningful, and the one who was therefore asked to demonstrate such a thing, should be the one producing evidence when asked, not people who don't believe, endorse, or claim what the claimant does.

Logic 101.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:13 AM   #686
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Justin is over his head on most of this as he has little or no experience that anyone has been able to ascertain other than appealing to authority on video clips from youtube, quotes from websites, and books.
It should be obvious that if one has .10 or 10 years experience, that that has no bearing on requesting evidence. Obviously if we're on the internet, the 'currency of evidence' is videos and text.

How many years do you need before you feel someone is worthy to talk to? 1? 5? 10? Let us know. Whatever years they don't have they'll get, and then they can email you all their comments which will have accumulated in that timeframe for you to answer.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:40 AM   #687
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
It should be obvious that if one has .10 or 10 years experience, that that has no bearing on requesting evidence. Obviously if we're on the internet, the 'currency of evidence' is videos and text.

How many years do you need before you feel someone is worthy to talk to? 1? 5? 10? Let us know. Whatever years they don't have they'll get, and then they can email you all their comments which will have accumulated in that timeframe for you to answer.
poop
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:42 AM   #688
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Here we see the story change somewhat. Before, it was said, and I quote:
Yeah, well, it's in maybe 10 of my posts on this forum that qi and jin (or ki and kokyu) are confusingly interchanged; even to me pointing out that Tohei demonstrates his "ki", but to be more accurate he is demonstrating jin/kokyu.

Smith never understood that. He confused the two. But the point I was making was that whenever he came to the word "jin" he translated it as "intrinsic energy". He didn't know how to do jin. That's why Stephen Goodson didn't know what "peng jin" was. It was NOT a new term.... Cheng used it in his books and Yang Cheng Fu used it in his books. The Americans were translating "jin" as "intrinsic energy" and when they'd see the term "peng jin", they always translated it as "wardoff energy", not having a clue what it meant. Their "wardoff energy" is "peng jin" is the core "jin" is the same as kokyu power.

It was a needless tangent with no other purpose than to get in a negative shot by you, Justin. You've done it continuously. You don't have any facts, just a constant desire to pee on someone's leg and waste time with fripperies. You're on my ignore list.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-07-2006, 08:02 AM   #689
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Justin, you are over your head here. Like everyone else has suggested, find something to contribute, or get ignored. Personally, I don't have to put you on ignore to ignore you...but the serious contributers to the thread certainly might. And that would be a shame.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-07-2006, 08:49 AM   #690
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Heh.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:17 PM   #691
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I will make one more attempt to see if I can help you understand the general perspective of those that have some experience here Justin. Again, i am not sure why I want to bother since you do not seem to have any interest at all that I can ascertain in actually seeking to understand physically, mentally, and spritually aikido or martial arts in general...maybe mentally...but even that seems to be a far stretch since most of your discussions seem to not so much "seek to discover knowledge" but "seek to find the holes".

I will be the first to tell you I don't necessarily see eye to eye with Mike Sigman or Dan Harden on many issues. I too have "sought to find the holes" from time to time. There is nothing wrong with that every now and then. However, once that becomes your primary goal, people grow tired of that and tell you "enough".

If you actually go to a dojo, especially an aikido dojo, a little of this is expected from students. Especially those that are seeking hard to discover the "truth". I am not saying accept what I say because I have studied it for years, but at some point, you have to "seek for sincere knowledge" vice "finding the holes". If not, then why are you there. Are you really that unhappy with yourself and your life that you would hang out with a bunch of guys that you are skeptical of and don't believe in? Negative energy gets you no where! Why propagate it? Move on!

Anyway,

It is not about the number of years you study that gives you respect or a voice in the community, but a sincerity and honesty with "seeking to discover". It is about learning. Again, if you don't believe in what you are surround with, then why bother wasting your time?

Yes I agree that it is possible to intellectualize and rationalize and grasp mentally many concepts and theories. Sure we can talk about quark theories, quantum physics, ki, and the interconnectedness of energy and the universe all day long. I do extensive reading in these areas and find it very intellectually stimulating to discuss and figure out. Frankly I believe that aikido, jin, ki, chi, and all that are very, very much apart of all this.

But, when you get into the so called, internal martial arts if you must find a label, such as aikido, tai chi chuan, bua gua, yoga, and many comtemplative practices etc....you now enter a very distinct area of science and art combined. It is an area that is very difficult to quantify, rationalize, and agree upon definitions, limits and abilities.

It unfortunately requires you to get off your ass, and physically experience things. If not, you have no dog in the fight, nor any right to have an opinion. It is not about years of experience, but about as Yoda said "do not try" or "do not talk" as is said many times in aikido. You simply cannot intellectually rationalize or use logic. It is about self discovery, personal knowledge, and personal experience.

You know my philosophy in combative arts and budo is really this. Statistics and Logic don't matter if you are in the fight and you are losing. The only ones that matter are the odds that you are now facing. Might seem unrelated, but I think it is core to the argument concerning rationalization and the application of theory and logic. Experience and the situation you are presented in count for quite a bit.

The currency of evidence that I have is the years of goodwill, reputation, and actual training with many of the people I correspond with here on aikiweb. I am not concerned with being an "internet warrior" because I have people that really know me, know my experiences, and skill level (or lack thereof), and that speaks for itself.

While I may not agree with Mike Sigman, and I have never personally met him, I do know people that have vouched for his honesty, competence, and sincerity in what he preaches. That is Mike's currency of evidence, and that is all I need.

What is your currency of evidence Justin? As best I can tell, you decided to take an interest in the Martial arts, expressed a few months ago that you were going to start, I and several others invited you to check out a few dojos in the Alexandria, and Arlington area. As best I can tell, you have not started studying, maybe you have, but my gut tells me "no". Maybe you have good reasons for not being able to at this point in your life. No disrepect there. I can understand that. However, if you were sincere in your desire to learn arts like aikido, and tai chi, I do believe that there would be a more geniune "seeking to discover or learn" slant to your post than the general trend has been.

So, as you can see, your currency of evidence is grown very thin with many people on aikiweb.

It is not about the years of experience, but the genuine interest in what you are pursuing that give you the voice and the respect of many here that will take our time to discuss and converse with you.

I hope you do not take this post as negative. Although, it is very direct. I spent about 20 minute of my life typing it so I do feel that it is worthwile to respond to you and give yo a voice.

I hope this kinda explains the general idea of where I and probably a few others are coming from. I feel I owe you that much.
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Old 08-07-2006, 02:24 PM   #692
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Feel free to PM it if you want a response to it.

Last edited by statisticool : 08-07-2006 at 02:27 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-07-2006, 03:17 PM   #693
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

How about if we start another thread so as not to take away from this one? Or is there a reason you don't want to respond in public? I don't necessarily mean anything negative by that...I have issues in the past with responding to certain things publicly myself. Just trying to understand.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-08-2006, 05:14 PM   #694
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Or is there a reason you don't want to respond in public? I don't necessarily mean anything negative by that...I have issues in the past with responding to certain things publicly myself. Just trying to understand.
His query, and my reasons, don't involve you.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-08-2006, 06:17 PM   #695
Roy Dean
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Justin,


Wow. You certainly know how to "not" make friends.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:14 AM   #696
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

His query, on a public board, involves me if I want it to...

Your reasons, however, are indeed your own. As it your attitude.

Welcome to it.

Ron (now where's that ignore button....)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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