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Old 07-08-2006, 06:41 AM   #651
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Again, I think it all depends on the realitive value you put on the skills, and the endstate of what you are accomplishing by said training. What is the point of doing the "trick"? that is the "big question" that you must ask to decide if it has merit or not.
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:48 AM   #652
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

What is the point of doing the trick?

Ok what is the point of grabbing a hand?
What is the point of hitting a bag?
What is the point of road work (running)
Its training and strengthening the body
There are ways to strengthen and train your body to be much stronger in response than you know now. You train itn then...as in various tests and tricks...you test it.

I talk about it separate from fighting to be clear and precise. On any other day I will glady hit someone or let them hit me then throw someone and als them totry and throw me and ask THEM if it makes a difference in a fight.
Most people I have met in many dojo really could not survive sustained agression anyway. They never train to fight. So most martial artists are caught up in "agreed play" training.
They don't step outside the box to mix it up.


In the kindest way I am saying what I have been saying for ten years on the net. People don't know this stuff. It's like talking to them about an alien being. Its beyond how they even perceive the body or the way its should be connected and move.
Your breath is a power to increase that connection in to you and out from you, not contemplating your navel
Once you train it and feel it you will never go back, never. It colors everythig you do, and everything you see

Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-08-2006 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:37 AM   #653
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

"Fighting" is a very broad topic, it encompasses many, many things, situations, emotions, motivations, tactics, strategies, perspectives.

Philosophically, I'd say everyone "fights" at some level everyday. Life is a struggle, for some it may be a huge victory to get out of bed in the morning and face the world. To others, this would be an alien concept. We all fight our own demons and battles, physically and mentally everyday on some plain.

Not really sure what you mean by "sustained agression". Empty hand? Weapons?, a guy that stalks you every night for a year?

My point is, and was several post back, that we must be careful when judging people and their effectiveness against a set of criteria that we set up for ourselves. What you and I may consider "sustained agression" may be much different than someone else.

Most successful life forms are born with the ability to breath. breath in and breath out. That simple act means that at a base level that we all have built within us the ability to understand KI and CHI and do understand it at a base level. We may choose to use other "tools" we have such as strength, or we may interrupt our breathing patterns with stress and emotion and upset our balance. But that may be a necessary part of doing things in general to "survive" or get by.

I think techniques such as the JO Trick, Push hands, and such are wonderful tools to show us how it is possible to become more connected with are natal processes to learn to listen to our "self" and to become in tune with the energy around us.

If that is a helpful thing, or not...is up to the individual to determine.

Like I said before, when you start layering criteria to judge effectiveness though...things start breaking down for me. (Remember the Chuck Liddell discussion).

Again, I think at a base level, everyone "gets it", and it is nothing special. Some of us choose to explore it, some of us find it more useful than others and choose to adapt our patterns of living to accomodate it as a useful thing, Some of us will choose to obsess and focus on it as if we have found something that is very special that no one else knows about.
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Old 07-09-2006, 07:41 AM   #654
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Dan, still a great thread! I was very glad to see you mention "relaxed, pliable, and immovable" together. Although my understanding is still sadly only on the first rung, the way that the lower spinal motion (balanced at the upper back and chest) creates a store and pushes down/compresses/twists the muscles of the thigh/calf/leg, which can then bounce back in unison with the lower/middle/upper back (ignoring all the other directions that alignments and tensions are kept to allow storage to happen) does create a very relaxed unified motion, sort of like a springy piece of squid stuck onto a skewer in a multiple-S shape (1-dimensional for simplification). Now when someone pushes or pulls on you, their force compresses you to a certain extent, either until they can no longer exert more force, or until they do manage to break your structure (assuming you are not doing anything to take away their strength on contact, which in any case is beyond me at this stage, except for releasing into them and thereby attempting breaking their structure). The breath part is interesting since the spinal motion can pull the breath in, and push it out, or in different circumstances the breath can initiate the spinal motion. In the first way, a punch could be absorbed with an in-breath, in the second way with a out-breath.

I was amused to see you mention that surprisingly many labourers do know the correct way to lift things. Doesn't surprise me in the least... I see that my ballet teacher knows something too :lol: Namely, how the spine expands and contracts when he sinks down in bent knees (usually a slightly crossed-feet posture) before rising up on the toes with straight legs to jump or spin on his axis. That is how these people get and keep their excellent body control way into their 50s and 60s without injury (he is in his late 40s and only started at age 27, so he must have gotten the trick right quite quickly, and conditioned his body using the correct movement techniques), despite what seems an incredible amount of pressure on the knees and ankles and toes for several hours a day. His way of explaining is different from most martial art teachers, always on extending the center of the chest upwards and never dropping it, even (especially!) while sinking the body downwards in preparation for a lift or jump. No matter what, the centerline is always pulled upwards, while all the outermost parts of the body are pushed downwards. That, and the explanation of "freedom" in all ballet movements by extending all limbs (arms, neck, legs) out straight, opening up the joints to the point of considerable pain.

All these things make me realize that really (me included) most people have no clue about where there teachers are actually showing the important stuff. Abe sensei lets people grab him at the start of each class. He sort of does a small arm motion and people fall. But I realized lately that the important thing is not to run up to him and grab, but to try to stand immobile and contact him. Often he pushes and pulls people off their balance and tells them they have to plant their feet this way or that, staighten the back etc, and when he holds them in return to show them then they cannot move him. So that part is important, not the funny throw-like motion he does afterwards where people take ukemi ritualistically. But everyone wants to do this throw...

Another interesting point for me: playing the flute is much much easier now that I do not need to move my upper body back and forth anymore, but my breath is strong and stable no matter what - it is under control of the spine. Keeping in time is also a lot easier when you do not have to tap with your foot anymore but can do the same thing via the exact same motion of the back that powers the breath. It is also not necessary to bend the knees, as long as the leg muscles are relaxed enough to transmit what they ought to (connected to the back).

In conclusion, the whole thing of dancers getting high ranks, Ueshiba speaking of sending semen through a shoji screen, stories of tea masters having no opening when holding a sword after only a short training period, etc., do not seem so far-fetched at all in the light of optimal body coordination.

Cheers,
Gernot
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Old 07-09-2006, 07:46 AM   #655
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I think techniques such as the JO Trick, Push hands, and such are wonderful tools to show us how it is possible to become more connected with are natal processes to learn to listen to our "self" and to become in tune with the energy around us.

If that is a helpful thing, or not...is up to the individual to determine.

Like I said before, when you start layering criteria to judge effectiveness though...things start breaking down for me. (Remember the Chuck Liddell discussion).

Again, I think at a base level, everyone "gets it", and it is nothing special. Some of us choose to explore it, some of us find it more useful than others and choose to adapt our patterns of living to accomodate it as a useful thing, Some of us will choose to obsess and focus on it as if we have found something that is very special that no one else knows about.


Hi Kevin

We keep talking past each. For my part I am not talking about some etherial energy in me. I am talking about body skills that are very real. And..........a better way to hit or absorb being hit. A better way to throw or not be thrown. And its not a natural way to move. You have to learn it

As for Chuck, or any other fighter going back to boxing's Jack Johnson. Ever ask your self why it is that some men were knock out artists with..."Heavy hands." And others- who were equal or even larger than them- didn't ever achieve equal knock-out power or heavy hands.If you think that is muscle or technique you would be mistaken. Heavy hands is a connection of varying levels.

Instead of training and training and MAYBE stumbling upon it-there are ways to specifically train it in. My goals were never to get in tough with my energy stream My goals were to improve overall power and ability to fight.

Now as to the sarcasm about special secrets. What it widely known in one culture is not always known in others. And on top of that. Some of these training skills WERE in fact kept secret.

Testing
I see your question about "setting up" tests Kevin. At least I think I got your point. But these tests are universal Kevin.
I Don't know Rob or Ark but in about fifteen seconds I could find out if they are connected and they me. We may not be the same skill level or have the same strengths in all areas but I know there would be no confusion about where the power was coming from.
In short its not about a skill or technique to undo a technique. The tests can even be made up ...as they show a common thread in how we use our bodies.

I take the discusion off of fighting for the simple reason that fighting and these skills are separate. But make no mistake I am seriously interested in how these skills are used to fight. But many guys may not be. But that is a different statement than yours.

For examples of related training:
Do you think that Lifting and Cardio are worthless in MMA?
They are useless as well er....right?
Or do they aid? Do they aid to point that they give you more...dare I say it...POWER to win?
Of course they do. But lifting doesn tgive you technique does it?
Cardio doesn't give you martial skills does it?
Care to try to win MMA as an out of shape fatty?
No?
Then you just agreed there are things that aid fighting that are not fighting yet may be vital to win.

Internal skills give you power at a base level. The ability to feel like hard immovable rubber against an attack. The abiltiy to hit and kick from short ranges that are powerful. The abilty to move and reverse with what feels like an extra strength. The abiltiy to absorb punches and throws.
If ya think that is worthless as training aids- than I have nothing more to say

Does THAT make better sense.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-09-2006 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:05 AM   #656
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Gernot

Off to a picnic. I'll reply later

I didn't get to read the whole thing just scanned it.
I dont' know dancing but other that to say holding the chest "proud" or holding it more equal or concave will actully produce different results for things even though both are exhibting postural alignment. The alignment can be different on the inside I wouldn't stand with my chest out per se.
I liked the start of your comment about "grabbing while standing" and not walking in, but at some levels it doesn't really matter what you are doing if you are connected. You can stop high level guys who do martial schtick "techniques" mid-stream while walking squatting, knees locked, or bent. I relaixe Abe sensei was knoy training thats not fighting either, but ask him these detailed questions you may get great answers.

Later
Dan
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:31 AM   #657
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

No they are not worthless Dan. Never meant to imply that, just to special in any sense of the word. At least not a special as we'd like to think they are. We are teaching a CQB course starting next week. The first couple of days will be gun control. That is breathing, posture, connecting your M4 to your body and moving with it in a connected way. Basketball clinics will spend time teaching the samethings, connecting to the ball, breathing and moving your body in an effective way. Ergonomic experts hired by insurance companies will work with your day laborers teaching them proper lifing techniques to save injuries. Yoga, feldenkrais... the list goes on.

Sorry to re-hash as I know we have been through this before already. Your exercises might be more related to skills used in martial arts, but they area still practices that follow the principle of kineasology. Important? yes very important. Special and rare.....no I don't think so. My belief is that most people learn just enough to "get by" to accomplish the endstate of what they want to accomplish. World class athletes certainly have figured it out within the parameters of their particular sports rules. I suppose I go along on the "efficient market theory". The market gravitates to efficiency. Same with all this stuff, we learn enough to do the job and get by.

Can I learn more. No doubt, would it be useful, probably to me. In fact, I have learned more about using this type of skill in the past year than I have in the past 10 years! I can fight the average 18 year old army guy for about 1 hour and never even get my heart rate above 130! Not really even break a sweat! I move, and flow and roll right around them, take breaks, breath, relax, listen to there movement and Ki and respond. Can I do better? Absolutely! Can I learn even more....no doubt. Is it rare or special? I supose it is a matter of perspective, sure in the average population it is "rare" in the world of martial arts, no not so rare, I know of many people that are much better than I am that can show me these things.

Again, you probably will say, "we are not talking about the same thing." Maybe not, I don't know as I have never worked with you. Maybe there is something unusual or special I have not yet experienced. I suppose it is possible. But I doubt it at this point in my life. If there were something different or special, you'd see many world class athletes knocking down your door, and I don't see them doing that.
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:35 PM   #658
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I dont' know dancing but other that to say holding the chest "proud" or holding it more equal or concave will actully produce different results for things even though both are exhibting postural alignment. The alignment can be different on the inside I wouldn't stand with my chest out per se.
My bad. I meant upwards, not forwards. Rob has shown me this last time we met, the chest is almost hollowed as the cross manifests itself through the extension in up/down and sideways in/out directions.
(Of course I could still be mistaken, owing to my current level being low).

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I liked the start of your comment about "grabbing while standing" and not walking in, but at some levels it doesn't really matter what you are doing if you are connected. You can stop high level guys who do martial schtick "techniques" mid-stream while walking squatting, knees locked, or bent. I relaixe Abe sensei was knoy training thats not fighting either, but ask him these detailed questions you may get great answers.
Yeah, I think I follow. Isolating parts of the body for training purposes is fine, but you can't really separate them, and once you have the connection you can keep it no matter what your legs are doing - or rather, what your body does it does in such a manner as to maintain the connection. When Abe sensei stands and "twitches" he often moves only from the back, but again sometimes you can see his thighs and knees factionally moving as well. They do not have to be straight, no, he just teaches that way, probably the same reason Akuzawa teaches the "push-out" with straight legs. Food for thought, I should be able to ask some questions coming Friday or Saturday.

Cheers, Gernot
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Old 07-11-2006, 06:56 AM   #659
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:


Yeah, I think I follow. Isolating parts of the body for training purposes is fine, but you can't really separate them, and once you have the connection you can keep it no matter what your legs are doing - or rather, what your body does it does in such a manner as to maintain the connection.

Cheers, Gernot
Hi Gernot
Isolating?????
Well I wasn't- for my part- discussing isolating parts of my body-rather connecting the whole.
Where did you see me saying anything otherwise bud? Yikes.

In think: frame/ connectedness, and breathing. Both for training and fighting. I think that way due to using training to fight not just cooperative playing.
Frame will sustain you to recieve power, or stall and move through a transition, as a constant and it can be burned in to be a natural feel as well a place to go in a flash....I am referring to the way you can absorb a push by grounding the force or in ground grappling where you can post. both different but the same in oter ways
Connection will bring about heavy hands, heavy body- a correct use of axis for power. That too can burned in to be the normal way to move and used with frame.

Both of those in and of themselves will bring allot of power into play if any one touches you or you contact them, but in sustained fighting/grappling you may be at various stages of geting gased. So breathing may not always be optimul. So I place breathing last. I love it and use it but see the diceyness in use.

Breathing will increase your power. And working with the pressures is great. It is vital in grappling as well as hitting, But in a sustained fight breathing will have to be a fluid thing. If your hitting rapidly and being hit or set up and played you may have other things on your mind and you may be taxing your system -aerobically-as well. I'm in pretty good shape, but there are varying levels of getting gased in a fight so overal I think frame, and connection are more important then breathing.

Anyway, in this limited format or discussion I don't think I was ever discsussing isolated body parts or even isolating the use of the body. Did you miss the place where I offered the " feet squared with shoulder, one hand forward, one hand to the side fully extended and push on the arm test?"
No one is going to pull that off anytime soon as an isolation or muscle use exercise!

Frame, connection, breathing. Should be a no brainer in something as tame as Aikido or Daito ryu where a single hand-grab thingy or gi-grab...of any type-offers you opportunity to think, ponder, and count sheep...then use intent and breathe all the day long.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-11-2006 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:53 AM   #660
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Greetings Dan!
I am most grateful for your candor in explaining these things.

I have a question near and dear to my heart...Have you ever experienced a 'structural failure'? I.e. a tendon knocked loose; or snapped? or a bone which will not sit in its joint?
And i don't mean one which can be easily reset into joint...i mean; you're doing the ki-gongs (or whatever)...and you can detect an asymmetry which you can sense; and momentarily fix (or perhaps not) but will not remain stable; in the position which you discern to be normal?

Thanks and Cheers!

Josh
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:21 PM   #661
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Josh
I don't do CMA. I don't know Chi gongs or any form of Tai ji.

I haven't had misaligned joints or tendons and such, just the normal breaks, brusies, tears, and sprains from training/fighting.
Chiropractors and ice are my choice.....never even had acupuncture.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:39 PM   #662
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Dan, thanks for putting me straight there and helping other readers not to get confused. I probably still don't have the right idea about connection, but I meant more in the line of choosing a particular shape to practice (for example, legs straight in the push-out exercise, as opposed to some other shape), not in the sense of only using a certain part of the body. Not sure if I am still making a fundamental error here...

I think you are very fortunate to have a well-aligned body. Many readers here have some or other alignment problems which hinder them in some way to feeling what is correct. The exercises help a great deal in making the body come back to a balanced position and hold itself there.

I am not sure whether there are fixed categories for these exercises, but some people refer to them as martial chi gungs. Not sure if they're the same thing though....

Regards,
Gernot
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:53 PM   #663
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi Gernot

The shapes really don't mean much in the overal sense. In the testing we were talking about locking the knees makes it much harder so it conveys a higher level of skill. But shapes for hands and such which you see in Aikido and Daito ryu can be fun but you need the body skills to back them up. Overall it is the inside that matters. In the fullness of time anyone pushing on you from any angle should feel instant ground and when and if you decide to deliver power you can do so expiditiously and without dedicating too much of...your intentions.
Then you have the hard-rubber heavy-body feel that they can't get in on.

I posted this in the one point thread but it helps explain more about your connection question. Ya need to go see Ark though and ask him or Rob for more hands on. FWIW its also a good primer for Koryu weapons. I cut through trees as test targets. Trust me when I tell you though- when you finally get there ot that stage of connection-many will still tell you its all muscle, Most folks just don't recognize the feel other than calling it power. Although those that do know, will spot it instantly.

cheers back at ya

**************************************
About the cross or the back chest area Rob mentioned and the idea of a one point.
If you can imagine shoving a drive shraft or any pole into a hole in the floor then slide a peg through it horizontally. Next grab the peg as it sticks out left to right with both your hands.
Now
Imagine the hole you stuck the pole into is attached to an engine with 1000 ft. lb. of torque and I turn it on.
Now when you get out of hospital with your broken arms healed you can understand how powerful it can be if
1. the pole is your spine
2. the peg is tension held across the back and chest
3. and the engine is the ground through your legs through your hips that turn the spine or pole at the waist. Everything attached to it is launched without you dedicating much to the effort in a forward direction. It makes powerful kicks, punches, throws, and shoves without you giving much to lose or have someone take your balance. You are wholely dedicated without being dedicated.
The frame is strengthened through connections throughout the body which can be strengthened further still through breathing and pressures there. As well you are using the ground for power to launch. Of course it is the way you are connected and can create the power that moves through the whole body foot to hand

The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight and you hold tension in the cross and you turn using the ground from your feet through the hips and you turn the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). Whats attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn in yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.

***************************************************

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-11-2006 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:39 AM   #664
Tien Le
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight and you hold tension in the cross and you turn using the ground from your feet through the hips and you turn the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). Whats attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn in yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.

Hah...yes...I've experienced this with Rob...he just re-aligns, strengthens the cross and turns and it's very easy to get flung off and suddenly you're in a choke instead of on top.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:52 AM   #665
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

I am not sure whether there are fixed categories for these exercises, but some people refer to them as martial chi gungs. Not sure if they're the same thing though....

Regards,
Gernot
This is perhaps my question as well. What would be a 'workable' dinstinction between the two? Perhaps Mr. Sigman is still watching from a distance...?

Thanks Dan - for the answer, I mean. Do you do standing excercises as well? Or are your connection exercises usually more dynamic (e.g. like rolling the 100lb heavy bag along your arms/fingers)?

Josh

Josh
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:57 AM   #666
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote:
This is perhaps my question as well. What would be a 'workable' dinstinction between the two? Perhaps Mr. Sigman is still watching from a distance...?
Well, I'm back at home, but my perspective of this conversation is that there are almost undoubtedly people doing quite different things, but talking as if they're doing the same things. The basic jin and the ability to use it is a skill that has a lot of different gradations and skill levels, so while various people in the conversation may recognize that they're using the same jin, I would bet heavily that there are a lot more differences than the casual conversations would reveal.

So in terms of "martial qigongs", there's not going to be a pat answer because it's recognized that there are all sorts of levels and skill gradations. In fact, that's where the debate about "shaolin" or "external" and "internal" comes in. Most westerners are doing "normal force" or "li" and don't know how to use jin/kokyu/whatever. Once someone starts using some jin, that doesn't mean that they are suddenly "internal".... in fact, they are probably just getting their foot in the door for the real "external" martial arts, because all good "external" martial arts use jin/kokyu, too.

So "martial qigongs" can be "internal" or "external" and I haven't seen much to indicate that the level of this current discussion is anything more than an "external" discussion with a vague bunch of guesses, etc., about what the jin component is, how it's used, etc. The big killer with a lot of Aikido, karate, Taiji, you-name-it, is that a little bit of knowledge represents most of the spectrum of knowledge. It's a killer attitude that blocks progress and it's easy to get back into that attitude far too soon, blocking further progress.

The "martial qigongs" that Ueshiba did would include the Aiki Taiso, knowing really how to use the hara, the Misogi training methods (not just some of the wildly superficial stuff like seen on the "Misogi" thread), and so on. The questions in my mind, if I were a serious Aikido student, would be (a.) how to do these body skills and (b.) how to do them in the manner closest to what Ueshiba did. The problem is that even getting a whiff of somewhat how the basic principles work doesn't guarantee that you won't go off on some harder "external" mode of the principles. So keeping it in mind that this can be a very complex topic might be worthwhile.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:03 AM   #667
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

" The Jo Trick" from 1895
The Feats of the Magnetic Girl Explained
http://ofinterest.net:16080/mg/
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:34 AM   #668
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
" The Jo Trick" from 1895
The Feats of the Magnetic Girl Explained
http://ofinterest.net:16080/mg/
Of course you know that's already been mentioned, don't you?

Several times. And in several threads. Still it's a good read... although not totally applicable to the "jo trick", some of the physical laws explained in the "Magnetic Girl" article are actually applicable in some jo-waza.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:37 AM   #669
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

dps, another interesting read:

http://ofinterest.net:16080/ttr/


Last edited by statisticool : 08-06-2006 at 08:40 AM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-06-2006, 01:30 PM   #670
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
dps, another interesting read:

http://ofinterest.net:16080/ttr/

Heh. Actually, that's a good webpage to bring up because it shows something that can happen in a lot of martial arts, probably not too far in the future. I refer people to that same article sometimes because of something Goodson says on it (see below).

As far as the "teacher test" goes, Stephen Goodson didn't understand originally what it was and only heard of it from a beginning Taiji student who had only attended one of my workshops. Goodson butchered what he had been told so badly that the guy who told him about me publicly repudiated Goodson. So Goodson, who has never even seen the 'teacher test', doesn't know what he's talking about in regard to the "Teacher Test", but he's done something very interesting that is worth considering.

Goodson is one of the longest term students of Robert W. Smith for Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc. So his "expertise" at Taiji is in relation to what Robert Smith knows... although it should be borne in mind that Robert Smith could only possibly have studied Taiji for 2-1/2 to 3 years, since that's how long he was on Taiwan. But Smith presented himself as an expert and wrote books on Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua (he learned them all in that period of time on Taiwan).

Now notice that Goodson says on the webpage:JUST TO BE SURE IT'S CLEAR: This counter only works for this test and it is not a deep or mystical principal of T'ai Chi, Nei Jia nor Nei gong. If the 'test' is changed then the 'counter' must also change, but to be sure, it is only trickery that is at work here. It is also not Peng Jing (which doesn't exist). Notice that last sentence about "Peng Jing (which doesn't exist)." "Peng Jing" is the jin/kokyu that we've been talking about on this forum.... yet Goodson, student of Robert Smith, says it doesn't exist. It's like telling Ushiro Sensei that kokyu power doesn't exist, etc. What does that tell us about what Robert Smith knows?

There have been a number of interviews articles published in various martial arts magazines, particularly "T'ai Chi Magazine" in whiched noted experts on Taiji have now mentioned that the core of Taiji is peng jin. The point I'm noting is that Stephen Goodson has more or less destroyed Robert Smith's facade of expertise in the Chinese martial arts, in this regard. To be fair, some of Smith's students have already mentioned publicly that Smith really didn't know much, as they found out when they themselves spent up to 12 years on Taiwan themselves.

But the point I'm making is that the internet is an archive and who knows what at the present will be seen in a few years on the internet, video, books, etc., that are available right now. Goodson and Smith pretty obviously don't understand the basis of Taijiquan (as Yang Zhen Duo referred to peng jin), so how could what they teach be anything more than empty forms and external techniques. It's something to think about and it's not really far off-point for the topic of this thread, either.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2006, 03:50 PM   #671
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises


A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-06-2006, 04:58 PM   #672
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Notice that last sentence about "Peng Jing (which doesn't exist)." "Peng Jing" is the jin/kokyu that we've been talking about on this forum.... yet Goodson, student of Robert Smith, says it doesn't exist.
At what date was the word "peng jing" first introduced? Or 'ground path' or 'ground vector strength' for that matter?

Quote:
Mike Sigman, from Internal Strength magazine webpage wrote:
"Receive the earth's strength," is the way Cheng Man-Ching referred to the powers which have their basis in peng (the ground-vector strength) through a constantly connected body.
If Robert Smith and others called the concept something else (as CMC did, as you say above), that differs from what a few people using a newer or differnet term call it, ... .. ... so ?

They might believe that talking about the physical body is more explanatory and useful than talking about non physical vectors. Dunno.

Smith was a close friend of Donn D., very well respected martial artist and historian. You think he would have corrected Smith, or not associated with him if Smith were all bunk, but we don't have any evidence of that.

Not to mention Smith co-authoring books with Cheng, among other things.


Could we see please a video of you or someone who beleives in you doing your Teacher Test in action, so we can evaluate Goodson's statements?

Last edited by statisticool : 08-06-2006 at 05:06 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:10 PM   #673
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
At what date was the word "peng jing" first introduced? Or 'ground path' or 'ground vector strength' for that matter?
Who knows? It's in Chen Xin's works, so all that matters is that it's well before Robert Smith. Why don't you make a substantive argument sometime instead of just snide questioning? Do YOU know when any of these things was introduced? All you do is nibble around the edges with negative questions trying to make an oblique point. But that's been pointed out to you before. Try to argue with some facts instead of the snide questions.
Quote:
If Robert Smith and others called the concept something else (as CMC did, as you say above), that differs from what a few people using a newer or differnet term call it, ... .. ... so ?

They might believe that talking about the physical body is more explanatory and useful than talking about non physical vectors. Dunno.

Smith was a close friend of Donn D., very well respected martial artist and historian. You think he would have corrected Smith, or not associated with him if Smith were all bunk, but we don't have any evidence of that.

Could we see please a video of your Teacher Test in action, so we can evaluate Goodson's statements?
"If"?? "Might"?? "if", again, and so on. And then can we see something further so we can make vague criticisms. Draeger has writings where you can see the limits of his knowledge about ki and kokyu. If you want to make speculative writings, YOU write them... I'll ask substantive questions instead of making snide suggestions. Howzat???

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-06-2006, 06:10 PM   #674
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Assuming everything goes well and we give a seminar in the eastcoast Justin can get an upclose and personal demo from Ark of "Mike's" test.

Without the airshield.

I think that'd provide more than enough material for you to write about it here.
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:17 PM   #675
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Why don't you make a substantive argument sometime instead of just snide questioning?
I can see how questions can make one agitated if they don't like people questioning their beliefs.

Quote:
Do YOU know when any of these things was introduced?
Typically when one asks a question it is because they are trying to find out.

As you didn't address, you've already seen CMC talk about the ground, and he was Smith's teacher, you know. That Smith doesn't use the description/term another person uses is moot.

Quote:
Draeger has writings where you can see the limits of his knowledge about ki and kokyu.
That is pretty vague.

Last edited by statisticool : 08-06-2006 at 07:20 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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