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Old 07-05-2006, 08:46 AM   #626
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
For the most part folks not only do not train this way anymore, they don't even know how to in the first place. And worse when you hand these tools to some people and they feel the results? They still don't do them.
For the record, my invitation to Dan to show what he is talking about still stands. Please see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that Dan only refers to his practice partners/students as his "men"? Dan, is this just quaintness of language on your part, or do you not work with women? If not, why?

Jim
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Old 07-05-2006, 06:12 PM   #627
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi Jim

I was just being precise. I have taught and trained with women-including one for 7 years. Remember I have always been small. There is just no way I will compare with your experince or numbers with people. It just doesnt attract me, and I think...no I know.... I would suck at it. It's just too much pressure and I am a terrible teacher. I keep experimenting and researching all the time.

I also recently attended a tai chi seminar and there were several women. It was a lodes of fun. While there I thought of you and I brought up this thread. I was asked to teach-yet again- and when I said no they asked if I would offer private instruction saying I could "fix" their Tai chi! Its ludicrous since I know nothing of tai chi but they never saw someone use it like I did. I turned them down too, and said come train with me, I drove to meet you. So we are going to have get togethers with three schools to work on breath work and connection...they had little.
I am consistent Jim.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-05-2006, 07:20 PM   #628
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
For the record, my invitation to Dan to show what he is talking about still stands. Please see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that Dan only refers to his practice partners/students as his "men"? Dan, is this just quaintness of language on your part, or do you not work with women? If not, why?

Jim
Dan tends to be a little reclusive in showing his abilities, but from my correspondence with him shows that he knows exactly what he's talking about. Not that he needs my backing

If you're still interested in learning this stuff, Akuzawa was interested in doing a seminar in the states at some point. And guaranteed the attributes which Dan described (if a judoka tries to throw you you should be as a rock, if a wrestler tries to double/single leg you, you'll drill them to the ground) etc all apply here.
Ark also is very hands on, and will demo this stuff with ANYONE.

The seminar we held in France was met with success, and no one there said they'd felt anyone like him, nor taught exercises that had such direct effects like him.

Contact me by PM if you're interested.
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Old 07-05-2006, 07:44 PM   #629
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

i know i'm always fascinated by those who possess
Quote:
Robert John wrote:
the attributes which Dan described (if a judoka tries to throw you you should be as a rock, if a wrestler tries to double/single leg you, you'll drill them to the ground) etc all apply here.
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Old 07-05-2006, 11:21 PM   #630
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
i know i'm always fascinated by those who possess
yeah, but we gotta go beyond being fascinated.
(sorry to pick on ya... you were just the last post )

Assuming something 'real' is going is going on in the jo trick, then there are prescriptive questions to ask. Assuming there is a problem, what do we do about it? How do I (or whoever) try to figure this stuff out?

Dan Harden's answer is pretty simple, if I'm reading him right: go find a daito-ryu dojo, preferably from one of the more 'internal' branches like Sagawa's. Its a simple, explicit, and direct solution in many ways, but a) there aren't many 'real' daito dojos around, b) it may not account for any other developments O-sensei made through Omoto (may or may not be significant... I dunno), and c) it appears dismissive of aikido in general, which may or may not be a problem depending on your POV I guess. Off the top of my head, I cant remember any other explicit suggestions.

Also, on more than one occasion, Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, and maybe 1 or 2 others have criticized posters for going exactly in the wrong direction. Explaining away kokyu as just timing or something. If that is correct, then the question is, 'what should we be looking for in the first place? What are some basic elements we should look for in technique and in instructors?' From what I can remember, the only two suggestions people had were Mike Sigman's teacher test, and Robert John & Dan Harden's discussions about 'maintaining structure,' which sound good & I bet make a TON more sense if you already know what they're talking about. Neither is from what I can tell a particularly developed tool to help the clueless (like me) out.

And lastly, there's the counterpoint, which I think needs to be taken more seriously, even if one disagrees: from what I've read, it is not perfectly clear that O-sensei wanted aikido to be primarily for self-defense, rather than some kind of spiritual practice. If that is true, then does this conversation really still have any merit, and if so, as what? This gets even murkier, of course, by the fact that O-sensei himself didn't seem to be particularly successful at creating an organized curriculum, pedagogy, or criteria for aikido.
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:07 AM   #631
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

snip....it is not perfectly clear that O-sensei wanted aikido to be primarily for self-defense, rather than some kind of spiritual practice. If that is true, then does this conversation really still have any merit, and if so, as what? This gets even murkier, of course, by the fact that O-sensei himself didn't seem to be particularly successful at creating an organized curriculum, pedagogy, or criteria for aikido.

Nick
Here's my take on Uehsiba and a direct answer to your question. The conversation *has merit* because these skills were and are the foundation for all that Aikido was supposed to be.
Not part of, Not some of,..........ALL.

Takeda, Sagawa, and Kodo realized when they got to the highly developed body aspects of the training-that they didn't need to fight anymore. If you entered their space you were controlled and couldn't get...in.
So, In the fullness of time and in his turn, Ueshiba realized the same thing. The power that this type of training gives a person to withstand others trying to control you. Ueshiba got "it" from Daito ryu and "got" that he could create and maintain a fairly impeneterable sphere around him.
Now........no one or no thing is unbeatable or unstoppable. So lets not go there shall we? But these skills are right up there "approaching" that goal for many reasonable, and measured comparatives.

In various simple tests it becomes obvious that a person wirh these skills "feels" different. But some may stop at tricks. Some at reasonable dojo skills. And others may pursue using them in more challenging combative ways.
As I have said before, for simple terms of showing worth or user "potential" it is easy enough to make a point by sticking my hand out and asking an 8th dan to put me in a lock and just stand there looking at him or ask him to throw me and he sort of keeps poping off.
No thats not the same as having a freestyle fight..there you do other things that are also valid but it gives folks an idea of the potential THEY can get for whatever THIER uses may be.

Takeda's was to dominate and subdue
Sagawa's was to toss off and plant people or draw in an control
Kodo's as well.
But all of these men saught martial skills. And FWIW they all used the jo to demonstrate these skills. Its where Ueshiba got it from.
Ueshiba's was to realize that he could make a way to create no-fight, fighting. And it is THEE reason these skills are the essential foundation in Aikido. If you can make someone damn near impossible to lock and extremely difficult to throw, and his body feel like rubber over steel when you hit it. Thats a fairly substantial accomplisment and a platform with which to luanch a philosophy.
Without that Aikido is just another jujutsu style.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-06-2006 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 07-06-2006, 08:15 AM   #632
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Dan, that's one of the most lucid and clearly understandable explanations of the purpose and goals of aikido I have ever seen.
Beats the Kojiki stuff by a fair margin
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Old 07-06-2006, 08:29 AM   #633
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
snip....it is not perfectly clear that O-sensei wanted aikido to be primarily for self-defense, rather than some kind of spiritual practice. If that is true, then does this conversation really still have any merit, and if so, as what? This gets even murkier, of course, by the fact that O-sensei himself didn't seem to be particularly successful at creating an organized curriculum, pedagogy, or criteria for aikido.

Nick
Here's my take on Uehsiba and a direct answer to your question. The conversation *has merit* because these skills were and are the foundation for all that Aikido was supposed to be.
Not part of, Not some of,..........ALL.

Takeda, Sagawa, and Kodo realized when they got to the highly developed body aspects of the training-that they didn't need to fight anymore. If you entered their space you were controlled and couldn't get...in.
So, In the fullness of time and in his turn, Ueshiba realized the same thing. The power that this type of training gives a person to withstand others trying to control you. Ueshiba got "it" from Daito ryu and "got" that he could create and maintain a fairly impeneterable sphere around him.
Now........no one or no thing is unbeatable or unstoppable. So lets not go there shall we? But these skills are right up there "approaching" that goal for many reasonable, and measured comparatives.

In various simple tests it becomes obvious that a person wirh these skills "feels" different. But some may stop at tricks. Some at reasonable dojo skills. And others may pursue using them in more challenging combative ways.
As I have said before, for simple terms of showing worth or user "potential" it is easy enough to make a point by sticking my hand out and asking an 8th dan to put me in a lock and just stand there looking at him or ask him to throw me and he sort of keeps poping off.
No thats not the same as having a freestyle fight..there you do other things that are also valid but it gives folks an idea of the potential THEY can get for whatever THIER uses may be.

Takeda's was to dominate and subdue
Sagawa's was to toss off and plant people or draw in an control
Kodo's as well.
But all of these men saught martial skills. And FWIW they all used the jo to demonstrate these skills. Its where Ueshiba got it from.
Ueshiba's was to realize that he could make a way to create no-fight, fighting. And it is THEE reason these skills are the essential foundation in Aikido. If you can make someone damn near impossible to lock and extremely difficult to throw, and his body feel like rubber over steel when you hit it. Thats a fairly substantial accomplisment and a platform with which to luanch a philosophy.
Without that Aikido is just another jujutsu style.

Cheers
Dan
Dan,

Thanks for the post. I know you've said many of those things before, but sometimes I just need to hear things at the right time.

I think I get the basic of what you are saying, though it does set up a tricky situation. If aikido by and large doesn't have these skills (or the training of these skills, or the terminology to discuss them) to the degree you believe they are necessary, and these skills are necessary for 'real' aikido... well... then things have just turned really ugly. ...Actually, a better word is disheartening.

But independent of that, thanks for the reply. It was helpful for me.
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Old 07-06-2006, 08:48 AM   #634
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Thank you Gernot.
It is the foundational truth that I believe quite a few have misinterpreted or never got- all together.

Nick writes
If aikido by and large doesn't have these skills (or the training of these skills, or the terminology to discuss them) to the degree you believe they are necessary, and these skills are necessary for 'real' aikido... well... then things have just turned really ugly. ...Actually, a better word is disheartening.



Were these skills placed back-in to the mainstream of Aikido it would function on a higher level than it does now, and fulfill Ueshiba M.'s vision. What we are mostly seeing is what Ueshiba the son, laid it.

As for your observation of being disheartening Nick?
We are not the first ones to observe this............................
Who was?
Ueshiba himself
It is why the old man would show up and shout "This is NOT my Aikido."
And the modern reader and his early students blew him off as just being an old fuddy dud and they weren't doing kotegeishi the right way. They openly state they ignored and could not understand much of what he said.
Maybe he knew EXACTLY what the hell he meant by what he was watching unfold. People walking away from the body skills into "technique junkie land." and missing the real power all together.

Go back and read and you will find him training with people pushing on him, pulling on him etc. Most have missed just what the hell he was training at to begin with.

Not only Aikido-all the Asian arts
As I wrote earlier in the thread- you can read of these same skills in the Book "Fighting spirit of Japan" -written in the 30's and published after the war-Where Harrison was told (after giving a large donation to the Kodokan) of a rarely known "way" to hold your body. A skill to resist being thrown. In fact he said that when this one fellow a 6th dan did randori he was tough to throw, but when he used these skills he was unthrowable. He was then introduced to whom?
A master of Aikijujutsu. Try as he would he could not throw him, push him, pull him or anything else.When asked who else knew of these skills in Japan the master said. Very very few.

I just trained with a Taichi Master from Chen village and his students. You don't want to know how many in that room were missing the connection. And why they openly asked to train with me.
What is being withheld from them and why? Or what did THEY choose not to pursue?

Here we are in 2006.
Same story.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-06-2006 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 07-06-2006, 09:21 AM   #635
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

these "secret" ways can only be "learned" through many years of training.
in other words, your sensei can show you things, many times, but it takes many years of practice to "master" the most basic of techniques, including being "immobile".
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Old 07-06-2006, 09:27 AM   #636
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Actually you can get a good headstart in a weekend.
And I think a profound in-road and accomplishment in a year- if you train it.

BUT............
a. Most don't have a clue about these things
b. When shown most won't train solo at home
c. Most want immediate technique and fighting skills -not boring repetative exercises.

I have taught laborers a better way to shovel and came back and saw them using their arms and shoulders an hour later. Its the way of the world.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-06-2006, 10:04 AM   #637
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I was just being precise. I have taught and trained with women-including one for 7 years. Remember I have always been small. There is just no way I will compare with your experince or numbers with people. It just doesnt attract me, and I think...no I know.... I would suck at it. It's just too much pressure and I am a terrible teacher. I keep experimenting and researching all the time.

I also recently attended a tai chi seminar and there were several women. It was a lodes of fun. While there I thought of you and I brought up this thread. I was asked to teach-yet again- and when I said no they asked if I would offer private instruction saying I could "fix" their Tai chi! Its ludicrous since I know nothing of tai chi but they never saw someone use it like I did. I turned them down too, and said come train with me, I drove to meet you. So we are going to have get togethers with three schools to work on breath work and connection...they had little.
I am consistent Jim.
Concerning teaching and working with women, I'm glad to hear that you were just being precise.

As for whether you're a terrible teacher, I suppose we will never know unless you come down here or I visit you. I have not been to the Massachusetts/Rhode Island area for years, but the next time I go, I will contact you. I hope you will do the same, either if you are in the DC area, or if you decide to put a body and a face on your many comments and observations.

Was the tai chi seminar with Chen Xiao Wang? If so, did you have an opportunity to try to stop his technique, or have him attempt to lock or throw you? And if so, with what result?

As for stopping an aikido 8th dan (who? --- please don't be coy) from putting you in a lock, so what? I have a student who has been a professional motorcycle and auto mechanic since he was around 16 (he's now approaching 50). The guy turns wrenches all day. If he does not want you to bend his wrist, you're not going to bend it. But that hardly means that kotegaeshi is an invalid technique. Or as Hiroshi Ikeda-sensei often says, "Don't say, 'Aikido doesn't work.' Instead say, 'Your aikido doesn't work!'" Among your other skills and pursuits, you are a swordsmith/blacksmith, with massive forearms (or so I have heard). What do you do that makes you different from the mechanic?

Again, returning to your skills as a teacher, or lack thereof: for many years, in many Internet forums, you have made your observations about aikido and Daito-ryu. For what it's worth, I agree with many of these observations. That is why I invited you to demonstrate and teach what you claim to have discovered and/or learned about these body skills --- despite your mysterious reluctance to do something as ordinary as stating who your teachers are/were, and what your level of experience is. You have the opportunity to "place these skills back-in to the mainstream of aikido." But it will take more than talking to do so. If you're up for doing it, instead of merely talking about it, please let me know.

Jim
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:42 PM   #638
Michael Douglas
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Time for this nugget of historical gold.
An interesting excerpt from 'Hreidar the fool', a
thirteen-century Icelandic saga about, among other
things, a big strong idiot brother ;
... While the Kings were in conclave, Hreidar went to
join King Harald's men, and they took him to a certain
wood nearby. There they started teasing him and
knocking him about a bit.
Sometimes he would fly away from them light as a
bundle of straw, and sometimes he stood firm as a rock
and bounced them back. ... etc.
... and at this point he got really angry. He seized the
man who had been roughest with him, lifted him, and
then banged him down head first, knocking his brains
out and killing him instantly.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:01 AM   #639
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Jim

It isn't a question of arm strength. I thought I was long past qualifying that in this thread. I'm saddened to even see it mentioned at this juncture in the discussion as it means the general idea of internal strength is apparently still escaping you and/or others.
Mentioning my size really misses the point. If muscle mattered so much how would you explain the smaller Asian teachers who can do the same things only better? Their arm strength? If we allow the discussion to be reduced to comparisons with muscular size and arm strength (the lowest form of strength) your just going confuse the issue for some newer readers who have not been following along and it will bring the whole thread back to the starting point.

Stopping technique
*Stopping techniques isn't a big deal. Only you referred it as if I was saying it was, and then used- of all things- muscle to explain it. I don't know why you would do so other than you still haven't grasped the concepts of what we have been referring to. FWIW stopping technique doesn't mean anything in and of itself unless you understand *what* stops them. That's the Key. Understanding "what" is stopping them. Not the fact that they are being stopped. Your referrence to muscle is just where some folks are in thier understanding. I could say a punch in the face will stop a wrist lock. What does that say? Nothing at all. Thats technique. But stopping technique with connection, and absorbing that force internally does matter.
Why?
Because of what was going on-on the inside.

So, if I crank on your arm and we agree that you are just going to stand there and not move yet stop me from doing anything to your arm-what would YOU do?
You presuppose I am flexing? Do you not know of anything to do internally to stop the force other than flexing or resorting to technique, or blacksmithing to gain large forearms?
How would someone Rob John or Arkuzawa's size do the same things then?
Any Idea?

As for Aikido
The one aspect that comes to light and should be discussed about AIKIDO specifically is that it WAS there to begin with. It still is according to some folks so that's good news even if the truth and knowledge of these things is escaping you.
In case you missed it again. These skills are referred to in CMA, some Daito ryu, some Aikido, Yagyu shingan, and Arkuzawas art. No one has a corner on the market.

So tell me......Why not respond to several other things I have written: where this training is in other arts as well: with Harrisons book on Judo, his reference to the Aikijujutsu teacher, Daegers, Blumings, and Smiths writings of Wang Chu Chin doing much more dramatic things. Or how about the various other CMA stylist who train this way as well?
How about a single response about them discussing and writing the very same things.
Do you suppose all these referrences are erroneous?
That these men don't know what their talking about?

Cheers
Dan

*The Aikido teacher I referred to is very well known. Since you asked- then dismissed the ability to stop him anyway I can only assume you would like me to name names for challenge value. I have shared that story (and many more) with folks you know. I see no point to name names here. If you don't believe me, that's fine by me. The Tai chi seminar you asked about is similar. I see no reason to write what I could write. It would not be conducive to a positive conversation with you. Judging by your responses it would not please you in the least.

Last edited by DH : 07-07-2006 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:27 PM   #640
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Dan Harden wrote:

Quote:
I have taught laborers a better way to shovel and came back and saw them using their arms and shoulders an hour later. Its the way of the world.
Better from who's perspective? This really sums up my whole point about the logic (illogic) of this discussion. If they tried it, didn't like it, and defaulted back to what worked for them, then i'd say the way they chose to accomplish the task was the best way. The endstate or goal is what is most important in life, not how you get there. Ego says things like "this is a BETTER way to shovel dirt". It is not necessarily better, but a different way.

Just like the Jo trick, what does it really prove? How does it make you a BETTER person, or help you understand anything BETTER than another person. It is simply another way at looking at things that effect the world.

IMO, when you are defining or judging the effectiveness or efficiency of ANYTHING you have to determine the endstate or goal in mind.

I can show you about 8 different ways probably to defeat Kotegaeshi, iriminage, or any other aikido "trick" within the methodology of aikido. I can also show you "BETTER" ways to perform them so you cannot be defeated by those defeats I can do. If you cannot do it, I don't go, well "Jimmy is a good teacher, but his students just don't "get it"...but when they work with ME or chose to work with ME on my BJJ internal methods, many of them could get it...maybe Jimmy isn't sharing everything, or they don't really want to learn."

That is a very pompous and ridiculous thing to say...but it is actually a phenomnea that I could probably go to Jimmy's dojo and replicate very well at this point. Confuse and dazzle his students with my proweness and cool skills of internal movement and ground fighting.

Then I could come on to Aikiweb and profess that I have knowledge that "many aikido students simply don't understand" in fact I was at a "well known 5 Dan's dojo, and demonstrated this". Not name Jimmy, so as he could not refute the claim and then drive on with my life.

What is the point of all this??? Do I get it...or am I way off base? Because in my simple mind...this is how much of this discussion seems to be surrounding.
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:03 PM   #641
Alfonso
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

In the spirit of furthering the discussion, and hoping to relieve a bit of frustration , I would like to interject here..

I am not qualified to tell any of you guys how to go about your training nor am I trained in anything but aikido of the garden variety sort, I'm just recently ranked so don't take my word for it; but you're talking past each other and judging from 8 years or so of reading your opinions on the web (scary thought there) I can see no malice in anyone and I hate the idea of having the discussion stop in sourness..

Better as in

It's better to lift a heavy weight by bending your knees and lifting up than bending your waist and straightening up. ( I tell this to my wife all the time and she still wrecks her lower back once in a while by going back)

Better as in, there's other ways of manipulating force than using upper back and shoulders (should come to no surprise to Aikido folks). The thing is that at the lay-level we are not fully exposed to all there is to it..

Better as in there are ways of cultivating this strength which are probably familiar to most people who train in Aikido but in general are not given importance or understood fully. I'm trying to learn more and Dan's hints and Mike Sigmans outright provocations have helped me a lot at this stage.

I think the point being made is that there is a skill that should be inherent in Aikido that may have been either partially transmitted , or omitted altogether because

a) it's private information not for the initiates
b) it's not well understood by those who stole the teaching, and is always being refined
c) it's not all there is in Aikido either, because there's enough technique to satisfy technically minded people.
d) it's the type of info that can give you an edge, and people in martial arts seldom give away an edge..
e) It's not obvious, so how can you tell.
f) it's in your mind and how do you show that

My apologies to all for using first names without regards to proper etiquette and so on. I'm not a very formal guy, and I seem to choke on the Mr. and Mrs. and so on. I read you guys every day, you feel like old friends (my mistake)

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 07-07-2006, 02:46 PM   #642
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
It isn't a question of arm strength. I thought I was long past qualifying that in this thread. I'm saddened to even see it mentioned at this juncture in the discussion as it means the general idea of internal strength is apparently still escaping you and/or others.
Since you are unwilling to either describe in detail what you claim to be doing when using "internal strength", or demonstrate it on video, or come to my dojo and teach it, you should not be surprised that I am still skeptical.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Mentioning my size really misses the point.
But you were the one who brought it up when you said (several posts back), "Remember I have always been small."
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Stopping techniques isn't a big deal. Only you referred it as if I was saying it was, and then used- of all things- muscle to explain it.
Again, you were the one who brought it up when you said (several posts back), "As I have said before, for simple terms of showing worth or user "potential" it is easy enough to make a point by sticking my hand out and asking an 8th dan to put me in a lock and just stand there looking at him or ask him to throw me and he sort of keeps poping off." Since you did not describe in detail how you did this, nor did you tell me who this 8th dan was or when this happened, so that I might attempt to verify it, I simply asked you how what you claim to have done is different than what I have seen another person do.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
But stopping technique with connection, and absorbing that force internally does matter.
Why?
Because of what was going on-on the inside.
So come on down to Virginia and demonstrate/teach what you claim to be able to do. If you're unwilling to do that, at least be as gracious as Akuzawa and Rob John, and post a video of you doing what you say you can do. And if you're unwilling to do even that, then describe what you are doing in enough detail that I may attempt to reproduce it.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
So tell me......Why not respond to several other things I have written: where this training is in other arts as well: with Harrisons book on Judo, his reference to the Aikijujutsu teacher, Daegers, Blumings, and Smiths writings of Wang Chu Chin doing much more dramatic things. Or how about the various other CMA stylist who train this way as well?
How about a single response about them discussing and writing the very same things.
Do you suppose all these referrences are erroneous?
That these men don't know what their talking about?
As Thomas Aquinas once said, "Argument from authority is the weakest form of argument --- according to Augustine." I assure you that if Harrison et al were posting on this board and making your claims, I would be asking them the same questions, and I would make the same offer to them to come to my dojo and demonstrate/teach.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
The Aikido teacher I referred to is very well known. Since you asked- then dismissed the ability to stop him anyway I can only assume you would like me to name names for challenge value. I have shared that story (and many more) with folks you know. I see no point to name names here. If you don't believe me, that's fine by me. The Tai chi seminar you asked about is similar. I see no reason to write what I could write. It would not be conducive to a positive conversation with you. Judging by your responses it would not please you in the least.
If you take my attempt to verify your claims as a challenge to your veracity, so be it. You claimed, several posts back, to be "a terrible teacher", yet you contradicted that claim (in the same post) by inviting the Tai Chi seminar participants to come to your place for training. Dan, my invitation to you to "place these skills back-in to the mainstream of aikido" still stands.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:02 PM   #643
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Kevin

I think you missed the point entirely. We are not talking about fighting and ways to stop wrist locks Via more technique, anyone can do that.
We are talking about NO techniques. Just standing there and not moving. Does that make sense or clarify things better? Now as Jim noted you can use muscle, but that brings us back to Martial arts 101 day one. I was referring to body skills that allow you to remain relaxed, pliant, and your arm immovable. No I don't mean agains tthree men, a truck, and a mule. Just being cranked on by a strong martial artist.

The optimum movement argument
As for shoveling- the way I taught them gave them a mechanical advantage to shovel easier and to that they agreed but just didn't concentrate and went back to shoulders and arms. That said you may be surprised at how many laborers know the correct way to shovel anyway.

As for you disagreeing about ptoper ways to do things or taking umbridge to me citing correct ways to do things-yes there are. Any fool can lift a heavy object. Many a fool has and have bad backs to prove it. Lucky for me I was a young fool and learned young. If you think there are no "better" ways to move than what you know.so be it. I think there are optimal ways to move and be balanced for the human frame, as well as optimal ways to revceive force and send it.

On a side note. I've experienced any number of guys who have felt me move or resist them and have stopped and said "what are you doing? I have not felt that before." But yet at various taichi things they knew, more or less, what that "feel" was even if they can't do it as well. I have two low level teachers of Tai chi who felt me at a seminar coming here tomm to train, just internal skills, not tai chi (I know nothing of Tai chi).
Why are they coming?
They recognized "the feel" right away. Instantly in fact. Its hard to explain it but I know, they know, everyone knows right away whether you have something. You can't hide or fake it. You do or you don't.
Anyway, you could present your arguments to me all day- that all movements are the same. All I know is people get moved or tossed I don't.

Now again we are not talking about fighting techniqiue or redirecting. Thats a different topic.



Alfonso

I think that sums it up rather well. And I don't mind you using my name at all. Great post

cheers
Dan
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:33 PM   #644
Keith R Lee
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Just to throw my two cents in.

So somehow you manage to generate some "secret" (obviously, since no one else seems to know about it) balance or energy or something that keeps you from being thrown from a static position. Also when people "crank" on your arms, nothing happens.

More than whether you could do it or not is not the point to me. The point would be: why? Followed by: what's the use?

I mean, when are you ever going to be in a conflict situation where the ideal action is going to be "stand in unmovable stance" and the attackers (who by some raging coincidence happen to be experienced martial artists) come up to you and immediately begin to try and throw you or crank on your arms. I mean, that's one of the most idealized types of attack of which I could think.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:37 PM   #645
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi Jim

Thanks for responding. When I said I have always been small I meant the dojo....not me. Iwas talking about small in numbers. There are quite few guys who are probably cracking up right now. Sometimes I wish I was small so folks would stop misconstruing where the power is coming from. I'm a 6 ' 220 power lifter. But......................I have small guys who do what I do.

As for details on the net...Mike gave a few pointers, so did I so did Rob. Can you do them? Teaching or sharing these things should be through relationship not on the net.

As for Harrison, Draeger, Smith, and what not. I think I am not getting my point across. My bad.
What I am trying to get you to think about or if you have already done so-then to talk with me about it-is this. How is it that these guys have all felt these skills as well. And then wrote about it.
See what I mean.
Its not about me, its about an ages old skill that is in many places.
I can understand you being ____________at or with me (you fill in the blank albeit frustrated, skeptical, or what have you) But the overal point is that these skills are simply undeniably there and evident in many written sources. Even with Ueshiba having Tenryu pushing him around and then gradutating him in three months-unprecedented for Ueshiba. I can guess why. It is the training Tenryu had as a basic to work with.

As for videos and such yuck!! How will that help? You can't learn it that way. But if you want to try and "reproduce" what I am doing unless you are doing these things -it's going to take a while. The basics don't, but I like to hope I am beyond the basics. At least when I am dreaming. You have seen ark. So go copy him or read his methods and try to reproduce it. I am really not interested in seeing me on the little screen any time soon. One of my sensei would call them "Movie Stars!"
No offense Rob.

Ok
As for teaching. I *am* a terrible teacher Jim. No kidding. My guys always try to keep me focused as I am constantly experimenting. And with jujutsu (Warning!! change of subject that has NOTHING to do with internal skills) they don't even venture to ask about variations as I go on and on.
I think the training speaks for itself even though I suck at teaching, I have kept students for up to 15 years.. Your questioning the tai chi guys wanting to pay me to do seminars? Or to train? (I said no to them as well regarding the seminars), so they are coming here. And Jim, they have already felt me and been tossed around and we laughed up a storm. My point in with the tai chi people isthat these things are not new to them. There is a fair amount of exchange even they cannot do these things as well. They would never debate this. They already know about it. Aikido people are just behind the eight ball is all. They even openly talk about Ueshiba as an internal artist.

I understand your terminology of my "claims." Its odd for me to read it that way and not take offense, but thats ok. From my end its sad that these things are not being done by most as they can and should be the norm in the arts.
Anyway, I just hope when we finally do meet its pleasant.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-07-2006 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:45 PM   #646
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Keith

There are many people who know these things to varying levels and they are throughout the Asian arts The point is never to just stand there. That is just testing and training bud ...not fighting.

Now, there are excellent means to use these trained skills in fighting. Including delivering powerful punches and kicks in small spaces, stopping a throw and reversing it without much thought, THis sound odd but beingable to simply move in an take your space has some really supressing feeling in it. You can be smothering standing or on the ground and sticky without intent. The opponent pushes on me and I don't have to think about where the pressure is. The theory is to feel heavy as lead to him and highly resistent but the truth is not really doing anything at that spot .No matter what he does he feels solid ground not moving-yet I am flexible and light. It is highly tactical and combatively rational.
goodness...it goes on and on and it is GREAT with weapons.
Good questions but they have been covered.
Read the thread.

I'm out of here guys........ going out for the night

Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-07-2006 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:51 PM   #647
Adman
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I will say that the exercises Dan mentions in an earlier post from another thread, has me chomping at the bit to get my garage cleared out, so that I can hang that dusty heavy bag, currently leaning in a corner of my basement.

Adam
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:00 PM   #648
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I have guys still struggling with that one. Start with something lighter than a 100 lb bag.
If you feel it in your shoulders ...it aint right.
Then you can start holdng body lines and hitting and kicking. There were exercise for that in some Koryu weapons arts for maintaining the left and right axis.
Takeda and Ueshiba were both known for one handed sword work. Which is axis training. Takeda had hand grabbing exercises to train this with resistense and that got destroyed in Aikido to a wierd tenkan thingy where you gave up yourself and instead of bringing them in.
Perhaps another reason Ueshiba said "This is not my Aikido
The real connection it was supposed to lead to echos training in Tai chi The connections you can develop is part of that test I talked about where you stand with the feet apart and hold one arm out front (straight) one to the side (straight as well).
Have someone push on the arm out to your side. And you hold it. If you are connected you will feel it in your whole body right out to the front extended fingers.
And all this leads right into............the jo trick!

Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-07-2006 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:34 PM   #649
Adman
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Start with something lighter than a 100 lb bag.
Well, I think my bag is 80lbs. So, there you go ...
Quote:
Takeda had hand grabbing exercises to train this with resistense and that got destroyed in Aikido to a wierd tenkan thingy where you gave up yourself and instead of bringing them in.
Not totally sure what you're describing -- on both points (although something is taking shape in my mind as I re-read this).

Something I try to train everytime I'm in the dojo, is to have somone hold my wrist while they're standing rock solid (mind-body connection and all that). Some might call that resistance, but it's not really what's happening. They'll also be providing either a constant pressure towards my body, without moving forward, or merely stand connected with the grasp and think of my arm as an extension of themselves (like a sword). Then I perform tenkan. I have to do it right. Is this something like what you're describing?
Quote:
<much snipped> And all this leads right into............the jo trick!
Yeah ... that's what I thought. I'll get back to you in a few months.

thanks for the tips,
Adam
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Old 07-08-2006, 06:12 AM   #650
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Just to throw my two cents in.

So somehow you manage to generate some "secret" (obviously, since no one else seems to know about it) balance or energy or something that keeps you from being thrown from a static position. Also when people "crank" on your arms, nothing happens.

More than whether you could do it or not is not the point to me. The point would be: why? Followed by: what's the use?

I mean, when are you ever going to be in a conflict situation where the ideal action is going to be "stand in unmovable stance" and the attackers (who by some raging coincidence happen to be experienced martial artists) come up to you and immediately begin to try and throw you or crank on your arms. I mean, that's one of the most idealized types of attack of which I could think.
I don't think there is anything 'secret' in what is being discussed here Keith. And as Dan (and Mike further back in the thread) have both said the skills being discussed are not about 'fighting', so your hypothetical conflict scenario is not really 'connected'.

However, I would like to add that a 'static' practice does have merit in a dynamic situation, as you can conceivable see a dynamic movement as being made up of many static ones, like a 'film' perhaps. So if in a dynamic conflict you have the immovable mind/body state, you are in a better position than one who hasn't.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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