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Old 06-02-2006, 01:10 PM   #501
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Heh. It's a red-letter day indeed when an Aikido flick is restricted for violent content.
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:13 PM   #502
MM
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Heh. It's a red-letter day indeed when an Aikido flick is restricted for violent content.
LOL! Yeah, aren't we supposed to be the "non-violent" martial art? the "soft" martial art? the "aiki bunnies"?

Mark
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:41 PM   #503
Michael Mackenzie
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

This clip not only has Shioda but some killer footage of 'Beat' Takeshi Kitano...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrV5R...&search=shioda

I love that guy!!!
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Old 06-03-2006, 12:42 PM   #504
Robert Rumpf
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think that's actually a pretty honest and clear representation of the general trend of thought (if you'll pardon my taking the paragraphs and isolating them). If someone's classmates and peers don't know this stuff and they're more or less socially happy, what's the point in shouldering the extra load? It's human nature, in a way. Only a few people are ever really going to dig deeply and peer pressure, etc., will keep the others in check. If we think about it a moment, Tohei and a few others went outside O-Sensei's dojo to get something they weren't getting in the dojo, but most of the others did not have the motivation to do this. So in a way, it's the same situation. But you summed it up nicely.
Well.. you pick your topics and your level of interest, as a practitioner or instructor. If you're lucky, the seminars and instruction you receive allow you to either expand your knowledge to something more relevant, or to drill deeper into what you wish to know, or to at least be aware of what else is out there.

This is not always the case, when people train too much within the same circles. Such specialization though, while leading to some blind-spots, can produce surprising insights.

For me, I see the ki stuff as allowing for more successful technique with less muscle. That would be nice, but I'm more interested in what happens when technique doesn't work than when it does. Aikido, to me, is an excellent avenue to research failure modes in these types of situations without the onus of competition to condense the situation.

If my technique worked better, Maybe I'd have less ability to recover when it failed..

In addition, I'm interested in the ideas and use of Aikido that I can apply elsewhere. Aikido is my main motive activity, but every other activity involves structure, intellectual skills or interpersonal skills. Ki movement doesn't directly benefit any of that.

I'm also really interested in the problems of what you do with an uke or nage that you can't stand, how you deal with politics and hierarchy in the dojo, how you deal with multiple attacker situations, and how you acquire the ability to either teach or to learn.

Because of this, I feel OK about punting these movement issues to another time.

Assuming that you are with instructors who are thoughtful (as I am) than you can at least learn something if you make the effort. But.. its not everything.. and hopefully it never will be.

Rob

Last edited by Robert Rumpf : 06-03-2006 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 06-04-2006, 07:16 AM   #505
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
In addition, I'm interested in the ideas and use of Aikido that I can apply elsewhere. Aikido is my main motive activity, but every other activity involves structure, intellectual skills or interpersonal skills. Ki movement doesn't directly benefit any of that.
I beg to differ on this one Robert. I have used basic ki development exercises in corporate training to illustrate a model of communication in the business environmet. They are a great way to get people to shift perspective, and provide a kinesthetic response to built into a 'non physical' activity. Also they are a much more fun way to learn than pictures or words on a page.

Quote:
If my technique worked better, Maybe I'd have less ability to recover when it failed..
I'm having trouble comprehending this, could you explain what you mean, thanks.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-04-2006, 07:57 AM   #506
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, one way is to compare the results, although different people read their results different ways. Even though he's got a few mat-monkies here and there, this is a good little bit on Shioda Kancho:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=...&v=1sCevYMrZtY

Again with Shioda.
Most everything we can see on that long Shioda video is? Daito ryu. And one particular style at that.
You are seeing, for the most part:
Daito ryu body skills
Daityo ryu entering movement
Even Daito ryu techniques

It's very odd to me that it is openly discussed how very "different" Shioda was from others in Aikido. We all know Shioda left Ueshiba. What few know is where he went and why he looked like he did as a result. One argument offers it was his personal vision or interpretation of Ueshiba's teaching-which in itself is noted as being different than those in Aikido.

The only comparison I see with Shioda and Ueshiba is that they both got there "real stuff" from Daito ryu body skills and then.......
Both hid the fact or minimized it.

Yes, I know the public drill very well and typical denials. But, I've seen paperwork and photos of when he was confronted.

If certain folks here want to bitch about koryu and their hesitency to "share" and not be more open.... I say your own art exhibits profound reasons as to just why that is.

Anyway, Both Ueshiba and Shioda are Daito ryu trained men. Which is T-H-E Reason they don't look like those who do Aikido. They were not doing Aikido..... And its why Ueshiba kept telling everyone at the hombu under Kissomaru that "this is not my Aikido."


Here we are in 2006 talking about why folks don't get certain things. Apparently two of the biggest stars in the art; Ueshiba and Shioda agreed and they went looking as well.
Its rather odd to follow a map back to the source, and the source points right.....so everyone takes a left.
Then 70 years later wonder why things were lost and how it happened.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-04-2006 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:09 AM   #507
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
1. How very odd that Shioda's "vision" matches that of a very small school of Daito ryu... right down to definitive moves. And that his transformation happened after he trained there.

The only comparison I see with Shioda and Ueshiba is that they both got there "real stuff" from Daito ryu body skills and then.......
Both hid the fact or minimized it.

Yes, I know the public drill very well and typical denials.
Dan, I'm not sure why you continue to flog this dead horse about Daito Ryu being a precursor of Aikido. It was. It's written about. It's acknowledged by just about everyone I know. DR even has its own forum on the 'Aikido Journal' website.

The only problem I see with the "Everything Ueshiba did was Daito Ryu" idea is that he obviously got some training in internal strength mechanics via Omoto-kyo. Do they do Misogi and Shingon training methods in DR? I'm not aware of it. The problem is that those kinds of training methods affect strength and ki development. So instead of viewing Ueshiba as someone who stole the DR curriculum and re-named it "Aikido", I see him as someone who took some DR curriculum, some techniques from other styles and added some "secret" training methods he learned in Omoto-Kyo to comprise his Aikido.

Yes, there is some DR in Aikido. But everyone acknowledges that. There are also some other things.... unless you're asserting that there is nothing in Aikido but DR?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:14 AM   #508
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
Because of this, I feel OK about punting these movement issues to another time.

Assuming that you are with instructors who are thoughtful (as I am) than you can at least learn something if you make the effort. But.. its not everything.. and hopefully it never will be.
Although the ki "movement issues" are not 'everything', they are indeed the basics. Reading your posts, I get the impression that the basics are disregardable in your Aikido. I would tend to disagree, but at least you're up front about it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:42 AM   #509
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mike
I'm not flogging a dead horse and your answer exhibits the evidence of just why it is worth repeating.

First up, It isn't about technique. The body skills are it. The shapes and uses for it are just results of playng with the connection. It is why Takeda kept growing.
It was the body skills (I.S.) that drove the machine. And that!!! is the real core or essence. Ueshiba's use of that to express his personal beleifs was never the point.

Secondly, while you may be able to watch and discern movement and connection, it doesn not mean you can factually detemine all sources. You may not know where it came from because you simply do not know what you are looking at in comparison. Stating it isn't from Takeda its from Omoto Kyo and shingon breathing implies you know all that Takeda taught. And quite frankly-you don't. There are a host of things that many were wrong about in this search.

Solo work
You have been told before that a small group of folks in certain schools were taught solo work, jo work, and certain body connection exercises. I don't know why others were not, nor do I care. But suffice to say with DR or even say (Yagyu Shingan that has solo body exercises) you didn't know that 5 years ago either.
You also "self admittedly " missed the power releases in Ueshiba's Jo and then "credited" Ellis with "finding" it. I'll let that go.... but perhaps you should "re-consider" other things as well and just who- knows what. I will only say that many, most or all of us, have missed more than we may think.
Its why research is such a bear
Ellis and Stanly know of some things that exist that would greatly surprise the community and answer some VERY interesting questions. They only know because I told them. But overall folks not knowing these things before had zero effect on the reality of it.

On the flip side we can look forward to possibly learning even more. Folks being honest about where they got information may help others who have it, to finally open up a little and be more willing to share.
But again the public at large not knowing does not effect that reality either.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-04-2006 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:01 AM   #510
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Edit timed out


I'm Ok with the idea that everything Ueshiba knew did not have to be Daito ryu. I'm not wholly vested in the idea that he could not have grown. Perhaps you watching him and me and others I know watching him are two totally different views of movement from different vantage points.
I'm not concerned with "being right" or anything like that. Just what "is" right. Or in this case maybe what is "more" correct. I agree it may not be so cut and dried.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:05 AM   #511
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Mike
I'm not flogging a dead horse and your answer exhibits the evidence of just why it is worth repeating.
I know, I know... I'm just ignorant. You'll just have sigh and put up with me, Dan.
Quote:
First up, It isn't about technique. The body skills are it. The shapes and uses for it are just results of playng with the connection. It is why Takeda kept growing.
It was the body skills (I.S.) that drove the machine. And that!!! is the real core or essence. Ueshiba's use of that to express his personal beleifs was never the point.

Secondly, while you may be able to watch and discern movement and connection, it doesn not mean you can factually detemine all sources. You may not know where it came from because you simply do not know what you are looking at in comparison. Stating it isn't from Takeda its from Omoto Kyo and shingon breathing implies you know all that Takeda taught. And quite frankly-you don't. There are a host of things that many were wrong about in this search.
Yeah, except you have it backwards, Dan. *I* haven't been saying "it isn't from Takeda its from Omoto".... I said there are other sources than DR. Period. *You're* the one insisting everything is from DR. That's the dead horse that has been flogged to death.
Quote:
Solo work
You have been told before that a small group of folks in certain schools were taught solo work, jo work, and certain body connection exercises. I don't know why others were not, nor do I care. But suffice to say with DR or even say (Yagyu Shingan that has solo body exercises) you didn't know that 5 years ago either.
You also "self admittedly " missed the power releases in Ueshiba's Jo and then "credited" Ellis with "finding" it. I'll let that go.... but perhaps you should "re-consider" other things as well and just who- knows what. I will only say that many, most or all of us, have missed more than we may think.
What I'm saying, Dan, is that NO ONE has missed that Ueshiba learned things from Daito Ryu. The "body connection" thing also applies in the Shingon training. Etc. I'm not attributing any specific thing to Takeda, Shingo, Omoto, whatever... I'm just saying the DR connection is well known and the you yourself couldn't possibly know exactly what parts Ueshiba got from Takeda, what from Shingon, what from spear work, etc. I don't have a fixation and I've freely posted things that are new to me, a surprise to me, etc., Dan. Leave me out of it.
Quote:
Ellis and Stanly know of some things that exist that would greatly surprise the community and answer some VERY interesting questions. They only know because I told them.
You're a pip, Dan. No doubt about it.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:27 AM   #512
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

That was a lousy way for me to make that point. Edited it out like that it sounds self-serving. My point was there are things many of us may know-that others don't. There are things I ONLY know because others have told me. The overriding point being none of us is privey to "all" things.

And as unfortunate as it may be there are those even today holding back information. Stan and I have discussed his frustrations and the difficulties with dealing with certain factions. It was these types of things I was reffering to. These materials exist. and they can answer questions. Most of us just don't have access. And if you review, we both just said the same thing. Neither holds that it HAS to be 100% DR. Nor are we fully vested in that.


FWIW I know you openly acknowledge when you're wrong or when you are searching. I think you missed my point there when I stated that and saw it as a critisism or something. That was the opposite of what I meant to say. I was attempting to acknowledge that you indeed do (Most will not as their ego gets in the way) but that NONE of us have access to the full picture. At this late date we may never understand the real connection.

My point being that our -lack- of knowledge of certain of these things does not change the fact that they exist. And that it also colors what we see.
I dunno I can't say it any clearer than that.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-04-2006 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:31 AM   #513
Robert Rumpf
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I beg to differ on this one Robert. I have used basic ki development exercises in corporate training to illustrate a model of communication in the business environmet. They are a great way to get people to shift perspective, and provide a kinesthetic response to built into a 'non physical' activity. Also they are a much more fun way to learn than pictures or words on a page.
Well... good.. That sounds like interesting training. I've not experienced that, but I don't doubt what you say may be true.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I'm having trouble comprehending this, could you explain what you mean, thanks.
An example: I didn't start to appreciate koshinage until I kept failing at my ikkyo. If my ikkyo worked, I doubt I would appreciate koshinage as much.

In addition, the usefulness of atemi has been something that I have learned through the failure of technique, not its success. When I (briefly) studied ki aikido, there was no atemi.

Rob
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:42 AM   #514
Robert Rumpf
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Reading your posts, I get the impression that the basics are disregardable in your Aikido.
Wow. That's a pretty impressive insult.. and we haven't even met or trained together.

Rob
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:48 AM   #515
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
And as unfortunate as it may be there are those even today holding back information. Stan and I have discussed his frustrations and the difficulties with dealing with certain factions.
Well wait a minute, Dan... it sounds odd to me that you're on the one hand talking about it being "unfortunate" that there are "those even today holding back information" and at the same time you're reluctant to give any straightforward "how-to's" because of your nuptial vows or whatever.
Quote:
FWIW I know you openly acknowledge when you're wrong or when you are searching. I think you missed my point there when I stated that and saw it as a critisism or something. That was the opposite of what I meant to say. I was attempting to acknowledge that you indeed do (Most will not as their ego gets in the way) but that NONE of us have access to the full picture.
Well, don't think I don't have an ego, Dan... and maybe if I thought I could get away with pretending all-knowledge, etc., and would never get caught, I'd do it, too. Who knows? The point is that I know enough real "Big Dogs" that I know standing on the pose that I'm an expert in these things will only fly with neophytes and won't stand up to someone who really knows. Do I want the admiration of neophytes or the admiration of real experts? The experts. So I'm not about to leave it archived in writing that I'm making some pretense beyond what I can really do... in a few years that will come back to haunt. All the things we write, don't write, how we respond, the questions we ask, etc., etc., all leave an indelible record for posterity what we know at the moment, Dan. I.e., as Ann Landers used to say, "Never put in writing something you don't want read out loud in court later on". So we need to all acknowledge our limits and move on to progress, not to a safer place from which to play the role.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-04-2006, 09:51 AM   #516
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
Wow. That's a pretty impressive insult.. and we haven't even met or trained together.
No, we haven't. However, I was going by what you said in your post that the movement things aren't everything. To me it would seem that the movement basics are indeed the *basis* of everything, so they can't be sidelined with "they're not everything". But as I noted, I appreciate your perspective.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-04-2006, 10:03 AM   #517
DH
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well wait a minute, Dan... it sounds odd to me that you're on the one hand talking about it being "unfortunate" that there are "those even today holding back information" and at the same time you're reluctant to give any straightforward "how-to's" because of your nuptial vows or whatever.

Well, don't think I don't have an ego, Dan... and maybe if I thought I could get away with pretending all-knowledge, etc., and would never get caught, I'd do it, too. Who knows? The point is that I know enough real "Big Dogs" that I know standing on the pose that I'm an expert in these things will only fly with neophytes and won't stand up to someone who really knows. Do I want the admiration of neophytes or the admiration of real experts? The experts. So I'm not about to leave it archived in writing that I'm making some pretense beyond what I can really do... in a few years that will come back to haunt. All the things we write, don't write, how we respond, the questions we ask, etc., etc., all leave an indelible record for posterity what we know at the moment, Dan. I.e., as Ann Landers used to say, "Never put in writing something you don't want read out loud in court later on". So we need to all acknowledge our limits and move on to progress, not to a safer place from which to play the role.

Regards,

Mike
Well, I'll take your digs at what appears on the surface to be a dichotomy of witholding but not wanting to withold. Many of us gave our words on things. Just ask many in Koryu for details about what they do :wink: I do hope your diggin is just in gest.
The problem is we're stuck-many delightfully so and that's ours to deal with. My word means something to me. I still want to point for others to go out and find it though, and that it is indeed there.

As for posterity. I don't read where anyone claims expertise-I read the opposite. Each is discussing things they can do or cannot do, others not saying whether they can or not, and still others saying they cannot and that they don't see any real value to begin with. Those arguing for pointing out a balanced view of practical uses as well as limitations. With the over the top commentaries coming from detractors. Seems pretty clear to me.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-04-2006 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 06-04-2006, 10:04 AM   #518
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

The jo-trick, if no one objects to me going back to the topic, has essentially 2 things worth noting, insofar as "ki tricks" go. One is the manipulation of forces between O-Sensei and Uke; the other is the training of O-Sensei's body to distribute the forces across the body. I wanted to say something about that second factor, because it's the one that would have the most to do with the actual "ki" of the body and the one that has to do with the breathing exercises, standing exercises, etc.

What the "unbendable arm" trick is supposed to show is the body's ability to spread a force over an area of the body without tensing the muscles. Of course, this is accomplished in concert with the manipulation of force directions, too, but people who do the "unbendable arm" trick well, don't necessarily always understand what they're doing with the forces. It's this "spreading of forces" by the "ki" that I'm focusing on in this post, though.

If Tohei stands on one leg and has a partner push on his forearm, he manipulates the forces so that his foot on the ground takes the responsibility for the load-bearing. But there is a focus of stresses in his shoulder. If he has trained his "ki", the dissipation of the forces in the shoulder area gets spread over a wider area than just the shoulder muscles and onto his back. If Tohei can only manipulate the forces, he's going to have to depend on building up his shoulder muscle to a pretty good strength.

The "jo trick" again has the idea of manipulating the forces, but the stresses on the hand/wrist, shoulder, etc., are great. What O-Sensei is showing that is unusual in the "jo trick" is that his "ki" is conditioned to such an extent that he can dissipate the forces at the wrist and shoulder so that the loading at the joints is sustainable. Maybe. He doesn't quite get away with it in the few videos available... not to mention the videos seem to be done very late in his life, so there is the valid question of whether he could have done this trick and pulled it off when he was more in his prime.

Also, Ueshiba was only about 5-feet tall and was reported enormously strong for his size. He worked out constantly during his life. So he was stronger than most people AND his short limbs gave him an advantage in the "jo trick" because the leverage is less on short limbs (ever watch a short guy knock off 200 push ups while a tall guy has trouble doing 50?).

Anyway, the point I was getting at was that the effect of "ki training" on the joints, etc., has to be considered and important effect when looking at the trick.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-04-2006, 02:29 PM   #519
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

It seems to me that the word trick is inappropriate.I was taught that these are exercises to help you experience correct feeling. A way to develop ki...so you could then move with that correct feeling.
Mary
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Old 06-04-2006, 02:39 PM   #520
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
It seems to me that the word trick is inappropriate.I was taught that these are exercises to help you experience correct feeling. A way to develop ki...so you could then move with that correct feeling.
Oh, I think they're certainly more than simple "tricks", Mary, but I don't let semantics bother me. "A trick that can be named is not the True Trick".

But what do you think about this "spreading of force", this "connection", if you will? This is the critical part for people to understand what "ki" really is. What are your thoughts on it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-04-2006, 03:22 PM   #521
Alfonso
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I think the experience of having technique collapse on you is fairly common in training. There's a "quality" that can be felt when you are able to perform ikkyo , shihonage , etc , correctly. Being relaxed is not enough of a description. I think it's partly correct, but not enough, limp doesn't work. My experience is that we are always tiptoeing around trying to get people to get a feel for that quality.
I find it hard to get a grip on the commonality of the terms and visualizations used, which always seem to make sense in corners and pieces.. these discussions are helping me a lot.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 06-04-2006, 05:36 PM   #522
wendyrowe
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The jo-trick, if no one objects to me going back to the topic...
I was talking with my husband (a non-martial-artist but a computer architect who does a lot of robotics work) about the jo "trick" and unbendable arm, and he said it sounds very much like what happens when he turns up the gain while tweaking certain parameters in a robot. His theory -- which sound pretty reasonable to martial-artist-in-training and hardware engineer me -- is that the people who are very good at it have trained themselves to react much more quickly than the normal person to a very small displacement. Say, for instance, that Ueshiba was able to restore the arm or jo to its initial position after it had moved just 1/10th as far as an untrained person who wouldn't have noticed and reacted until it was 10 times as far (maybe we're talking 1mm for Ueshiba vs 1cm for someone else -- I'm just guessing at the possible dispacements). It would take much less force and time to replace the unbendable appendage to its undeflected position if it were accomplished at the much smaller deflection, and then the person trying to move it would be back to the initial position again.

Then he said the same thing I'd said earlier, which was that if the unbendable appendage were wired with force sensors (and displacement sensors), we'd be in a better position to tell what was going on.

If anyone wants to build an Ueshibabot, I can ask him for the names of the parameters -- but after that, you're on your own!
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:01 PM   #523
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
I was talking with my husband (a non-martial-artist but a computer architect who does a lot of robotics work) about the jo "trick" and unbendable arm, and he said it sounds very much like what happens when he turns up the gain while tweaking certain parameters in a robot. His theory -- which sound pretty reasonable to martial-artist-in-training and hardware engineer me -- is that the people who are very good at it have trained themselves to react much more quickly than the normal person to a very small displacement. Say, for instance, that Ueshiba was able to restore the arm or jo to its initial position after it had moved just 1/10th as far as an untrained person who wouldn't have noticed and reacted until it was 10 times as far (maybe we're talking 1mm for Ueshiba vs 1cm for someone else -- I'm just guessing at the possible dispacements). It would take much less force and time to replace the unbendable appendage to its undeflected position if it were accomplished at the much smaller deflection, and then the person trying to move it would be back to the initial position again.

Then he said the same thing I'd said earlier, which was that if the unbendable appendage were wired with force sensors (and displacement sensors), we'd be in a better position to tell what was going on.

If anyone wants to build an Ueshibabot, I can ask him for the names of the parameters -- but after that, you're on your own!
Ummmmmm..... I don't see how this applies, Wendy. It's a guess to toss into the pot for perhaps the jo-trick, but not really for the unbendable-arm trick (I do NOT like the unbendable arm demo because it can be successfully faked by too many people) or a bunch of other examples. Take another example of the same thing... Tohei used to show some of his people doing the "iron bridge" where they lay between two chairs.... it's that same overall force dispersal thing (although of course a good, strong athlete can do something similar and they sometimes do). The thing we're looking at is sort of like the way the body will rigidize over an inflammed appendix to protect it; a horse's flank quivering is similarly related.

Let me try a couple of other examples. If someone pushes on Tohei's chest he will again let the back leg accept the load-bearing responsibility. In someone who has trained well, the trick is to let the back leg accept the responsibility and to let the mind acquire and assign the necessary musculature to disperse yet transmit the force to the leg. The body has to be "relaxed" in order to let the mind assign what it needs. As a concurrent issue, note that Tohei almost invariable showed himself in a straight stance, not a stance with one leg propped out behind him to act as a "brace". People who use a "brace" seldom really develop this skill very far.

The other example I was going to use, letting relaxed kokyu power stop an applied nikkyo, probably won't be understood in writing, so I'll drop it.

The idea of the unbendable arm is to let the mind assign what it needs. And other tricks. Of course, as I noted before if someone jumps too quickly into trying to do these tricks, they'll wind up using pure joint strength... like in my example of someone pushing on Tohei's forearm and letting a stiff shoulder muscle cover the stress at the shoulder joint.

Often what I see happening is that someone has has gotten a bit of a "feel" for using rudimentary "center" and a few force manipulations is that they've unwittingly gone the route of too much power and let strong shoulder muscles become part of their responses.

It's the idea of letting the mind assign the required structure and not kicking in the primary musculature. It's also the idea of allowing the lower body to accept the load bearing and letting the mind handle the upper-body assignments.

Of course, until someone gets a good "feel" for what this is like, it just sounds like conversation (with a number of people thinking, "Aha, I must already be doing that").

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:52 PM   #524
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

But what do you think about this "spreading of force", this "connection", if you will? This is the critical part for people to understand what "ki" really is. What are your thoughts on it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman[/quote]

I think for me it started to happen when I was being tested for one point and I stopped trying to not get pushed over and just trusted my center.

Then I extended that same feeling before my uke grabs me so they are grabbing ki first and then flesh and are already off balance.
Mary
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Old 06-05-2006, 05:25 AM   #525
eyrie
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Tohei used to show some of his people doing the "iron bridge" where they lay between two chairs.... it's that same overall force dispersal thing (although of course a good, strong athlete can do something similar and they sometimes do).
If you can do the "iron bridge", a good test of "strength" is to have someone sit on your middle and see if you can spread the load without collapsing.

Quote:
The other example I was going to use, letting relaxed kokyu power stop an applied nikkyo, probably won't be understood in writing, so I'll drop it.
Not just nikkyo, but any of the pins - take the stress off the joint and absorb it and spread it to the ground.

You mentioned before the standing wrist "exercises" - that's really what they are for...

Ignatius
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