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Old 05-29-2006, 08:22 PM   #401
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Just a quick comment,
I don't think it necessary to use Chinese methods to develop the body skills. I think there's a general lack of knowledge in traditional japanese methods of solo training.
Once again, that's exactly what I believe. Interestingly enough, most of what I know comes from Chinese sources, but not all. If I hadn't clearly felt a Japanese Aikidoist use this form of strength, I would never have even started chasing this monster. And the interesting part is that I started visiting various Japanese foums last year and even though there was no coherent source of information, I found lots of interesting bits and pieces that added quite a bit to my overall perspective on these things. The ki-related training and strength phenomena all follow the same immutable principles.... Chinese or Japanese or Indonesian or Indian, etc., has got nothing to do with anything.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 05-29-2006, 08:53 PM   #402
statisticool
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Seriously, I don't think anyone takes Justin for anything other than he is... "drive-by" is pretty accurate. Look at his previous posts in this thread alone. But just the same, he arrives at a good time to make a point about another aspect of this whole issue on the mechanics, the "secrets", and so forth.
Speaking of previous posts, a wise sage, on this very thread, said

Quote:
This sets up an "Us versus Me" relationship, George, while noting that I am an "outsider". Rhetorically, it's a way of discrediting someone in a debate. I know you didn't mean to do that, but I thought I'd point it out. Is it possible that we can discuss this without slipping in personal references to bend the debate?


Did you read that judo book from the 60s that talks about forces yet?

Last edited by statisticool : 05-29-2006 at 08:56 PM.

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Old 05-29-2006, 08:58 PM   #403
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Speaking of previous posts, a wise sage, on this very thread, said





Did you read that judo book from the 60s that talks about forces yet?
I think Mike already mentioned something to the effect that it was present in the old school of judo.

PS, From what I've read from the reviews on amazon, I don't think its talking about the same kind of vectors we've been discussing here. But if a copy ever comes my way I'll check it out.

Last edited by Upyu : 05-29-2006 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 05-29-2006, 09:05 PM   #404
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I think Mike already mentioned something to the effect that it was present in the old school of judo.

PS, From what I've read from the reviews on amazon, I don't think its talking about the same kind of vectors we've been discussing here. But if a copy ever comes my way I'll check it out.

Actually I think that was me Quoting E.J. Harrisons work. That book was written in the thirties but published after the war.
If you read it it also includes him visiting an Aikijujutsu guy and ....pushing on him, then pulling, trying to choke him and having it nuetralized without the fellow moving. Then E.J. being shoved off with a finger. Surprise surprise.

I also encouraged folks to re-read the interview with Tenryu and Ueshiba training. Tenryu describes being forced to "push" Ueshiba all the time.
Then for them to ask:
Why were they doing this type of training?
Why would anyone?
What's to be gained, what is being shown or taught?

I also have a quote from the nineteenth century from Apache indian wrestlers talking about a mysterious power a man can train in. This power has no name but when a man uses it he cannot be thrown.
And so it goes...........
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-29-2006 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 05-29-2006, 09:21 PM   #405
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Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Just a quick comment,
I don't think it necessary to use Chinese methods to develop the body skills. I think there's a general lack of knowledge in traditional japanese methods of solo training.

In fact the ways you can train are numerous, even within a Jp only cultural context...Shiko, Spear training, Sumo exercises, understanding how to actually train with sword, other various body aligment exercises within jp styles etc.
In a room full of Koryu practioners, the teacher asked the collected group handling long weapons "How many solo train?" Only three raised their hands (including him)

First thing I learned in Daito ryu?
Solo work. A connection exercise. I thought he was lying to me when he said "You'll never learn this here. Go home and do this." A year later when My buddy and I could pretty much stop folks in their tracks did light dawn on my thick skull that there was something going on -strengthening and connecting the lines -in me.

One need only re-read your quote from Sagawa to have it burn inside. "How do you expect?..............yadda yadda.

Dan
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Old 05-29-2006, 09:25 PM   #406
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
PS, From what I've read from the reviews on amazon, I don't think its talking about the same kind of vectors we've been discussing here.
I'm only familiar with the mechanical notion of vectors and describing them using math.

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Old 05-29-2006, 10:45 PM   #407
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
I'm only familiar with the mechanical notion of vectors and describing them using math.
Thinly veiled sarcasm aside, let's just say for a moment that the diagrams mentioned in the book are the same we were talking about. But if you don't know "how" to create those vectors of force, then the diagrams are of little use to you.

A better way to describe it is that the "quality" of the vectors is different.

Taking the simple example of two people:

Person A doesn't have this "skill"
Person B has this "skill"

Tell both to push Person C over, and their interpretation on how to generate the resultant force forward will vary dramatically.

Person A will probably try and push the ground with his feet, while putting power into the back, committing all the force "towards" Person C. If you were to take Person C away at any time, Person A would lose balance and fall over.

Person B pushes in a different way. He extends out, but doesn't push the ground with his feet. Even as he "extends" his arms to push Person C, he counteracts this by "pulling" back to the center.
At any time if you were to take Person C away, Person B would NOT fall over. Yet Person C is still off balanced/pushed back.

This is an extremely simple example, but illustrates that even though you could "diagram" the same force, the quality and feel of both forces would be totally different.
The key difference for now, is that in one, the pusher commits his "weight" to the person, while the other does not, but still unbalances/pushes Person C. Easier said than done actually

It's what was being demo'd in the pushout vid that I posted earlier in the thread.

Last edited by Upyu : 05-29-2006 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:36 AM   #408
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

"Even as he "extends" his arms to push Person C, he counteracts this by "pulling" back to the center.
At any time if you were to take Person C away, Person B would NOT fall over."

Pulling what back to the center? The arms?
When you say B is not pushing against the ground, do you mean B isn't pushing as hard? It seems one must still extend through their feet and into the ground, so it sounds to me like you're describing a center with virtical spine as opposed to the guy who leans into his push. Aikido terminology, if I understand you correctly, has a distinction between "pushing" and "entering" which describes the difference you seem to be describing. To enter, as i understand it, one must keep the spine more or less above the center and the center more or less between the feet, or you start to topple over. Am I making sense? I'm not quite sure I'm describing it perfectly, but that feeling of keeping weight under you (the feeling of a stable center) is what keeps one from falling when uke withdraws suddenly.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-30-2006 at 03:47 AM.

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Old 05-30-2006, 04:08 AM   #409
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

"A better way to describe it is that the "quality" of the vectors is different."

Without knowing the diagram in question of course it's hard for me to try and enter this conversation, so please forgive my likely sloppy attempt, but when i think of vectors and the human body i think of the basic mechanics of posture (eg-bone structure and the ranges of motion for the various segments of that whole, and, hopefully, how they apply together to provide a net force for some point at which connection is made to outside objects). Hara gets designated as a point from which, more or less, vectors radiate outward, following the greatest natural forces of the body.
So when my arm extends outward, I think of the vector of some point in my fist, for example. This vector has only two possible qualities: direction and force, as i recall. Speed, for example, is not a vector quantity. So the net force of that vector can be added to by other points of the body, all of which are connected to each other in one way or another, through efficient movements (forces not subtracting from each other). The difficulty in achieving the greatest possible net force is that the human body is so blessed articulatable, making it easy to bleed off force in directions which do not help that "fist-point" directions of force, or which conflicts with it. In balance, the net center of balance must remain within the base or it will always topple over (provided one isn't leaning against some helpfull person or thing). So for me, it seems more helpfull to describe the various vectors of the body and how they contribute to the net vector, than simply saying special "quality" of vector. It sounds like you're describing an ability more than a vector to me, though i admit being quite fully ignorant when it comes to generating powerfull forces.
Sincerely,
Matt
ps- sorry if I got incogent...I need to brush up on my physics

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Old 05-30-2006, 07:05 AM   #410
Dennis Hooker
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

And then there are people that can do things most of us can't regardless of vectors and such. I once seen a rather normal looking man roll up an iron skillet like a newspaper and bend steel wrenches with his hand. No tricks they were real. He clamed it was science but it damn sure looked like superhuman strength to me. I did not have the scientific skill to unbend them. To talk about it and understand the science of it is one thing. To do it is another.

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Old 05-30-2006, 07:08 AM   #411
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Actually I think that was me Quoting E.J. Harrisons work. That book was written in the thirties but published after the war.
If you read it it also includes him visiting an Aikijujutsu guy and ....pushing on him, then pulling, trying to choke him and having it nuetralized without the fellow moving. Then E.J. being shoved off with a finger. Surprise surprise.
I came across the Harrison book ("The Fighting Spirit of Japan: The Esoteric Study of the Martial Arts") by accident, some 15 years or so ago, before I had any kind of context to put the aikijutsu description into. (Not that lurking on internet forums has provided much more of a context since )

I remember being quite suprised to discover that I actually believed Harrison's account - the way his character comes across in his writing, you really can't imagine he'd lie about something that sounds so unlikely!

Last edited by Ian Thake : 05-30-2006 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:32 AM   #412
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi George,
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This is an issue for us because there are really almost no people floating around who have extenisve experience in all of these different areas... To my knowledge there are no Shihan level Aikido people who also have a deep knowledge of Daito Ryu. Of the major teachers of Aikido I do not know of any who have extensive backgrounds in Chinese internal arts. The converse is true as well...
The folks I know who were Aikido people who left to do Daito Ryu were not very advanced in their Aikido when they left. There are a few people like Mike Sigman, Ellis Amdur, Bob Galleone, etc who had a substantial background in Aikido who now have a substantial background in Chinese internal arts... This is probably the best place to get some idea of what might have been left out and how we might re-introduce these elements into our training (since the Daito Ryu folks aren't talking).
This is not quite right. Some of the Daito Ryu folks are just talking. Others, like Kondo, Okamoto, and Roy Goldberg, are doing open seminars. As the saying goes, talk is cheap. Or as my Italian grandfather used to say, "The mouth is a wonderful instrument. It is the only tool which grows sharper through constant use."

Jim
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:33 AM   #413
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mathew:
The elements you described are foundational to it, and a key part. There's more to it of course, but I was only giving an extremely simple example. Keeping the weight "underside" is a pretty good description.
I'd go so far to say that you can have a tilted spine, so long as its straight, and you keep the weight underside of you.
What all the solo exercises that were described do first and foremost is strengthen those connections that allow you to keep your weight underside, and then increase the maximum extent to which you can hold structure without it collapsing. IE without you commiting weight and losing your balance.

Youre on a good roll tho I think.
You do any solo exercises to strengthen those concepts you talked about? (Just curious)
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:50 AM   #414
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Youre on a good roll tho I think.
You do any solo exercises to strengthen those concepts you talked about? (Just curious)
Thank you. I do the tori fune and furi tama exercises, as well as a sort of free-form movement where I essentially focus on different parts of my body and get a sense for strengths and weaknesses. Basically just moving and paying attention as best I can.

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Old 05-30-2006, 08:01 AM   #415
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
And then there are people that can do things most of us can't regardless of vectors and such. I once seen a rather normal looking man roll up an iron skillet like a newspaper and bend steel wrenches with his hand. No tricks they were real. He clamed it was science but it damn sure looked like superhuman strength to me. I did not have the scientific skill to unbend them. To talk about it and understand the science of it is one thing. To do it is another.
After drinking a beer I bend the bottlecap in half with my thumb and finger.

I practice it a lot.

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Old 05-30-2006, 08:02 AM   #416
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Taking the simple example of two people:

Person A doesn't have this "skill"
Person B has this "skill"

Tell both to push Person C over, and their interpretation on how to generate the resultant force forward will vary dramatically.

Person A will probably try and push the ground with his feet, while putting power into the back, committing all the force "towards" Person C. If you were to take Person C away at any time, Person A would lose balance and fall over.

Person B pushes in a different way. He extends out, but doesn't push the ground with his feet. Even as he "extends" his arms to push Person C, he counteracts this by "pulling" back to the center.
At any time if you were to take Person C away, Person B would NOT fall over. Yet Person C is still off balanced/pushed back.
Well, to be fair to Matt, Rob, I can't make heads or tails out of that description because I know that a casual reader sees it as you saying you don't push from the ground and you move your body away from Uke... so where does the push-power come from?

We should take some very simple example and analyze it. I'll be happy to post diagrams for people, but I'll be out of touch for a while during the day and may not be able to post them until this evening.

One of the problems that is going to start to creep in is the different ways that power can be manipulated with the middle, pressure, the back, the tensioned core, off the floor, and so on. That can massively complicate a discussion. For instance, from my perspective there is an enormous difference between "using the hips" and "using the hara"; they are not interchangeable. There are also several ways to "use the hips", some more powerful than others. I think I'm getting around to suggesting that any explanations that people write should be very simple and clear (think of the average reader, for instance, that didn't study force vectors in school... try to explain things so they'd also understand).

Regardless, a discussion of forces sometimes gets out of hand, but invariably it sheds new light for some people.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:46 AM   #417
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Talk -can be- cheap. Apparently so cheap as to be worthless-in that it completely escapes some people and is not worth the time to write. On the other hand it can invaluable. I guess it just depends who we spend our time with.

I am once again surprised at the tone or suggestion tendered. That some would suppose folks openly teach details in seminars to strangers. Astounded even. I have been to those offered by many of the seniors in Aikido-the top people in the country at the time, and those in Daito ryu, and those in Koryu...many times.
I have never seen the good stuff taught in detail -to a stranger- in an open room......ever.


Italian grandfathers aside. "I am thankful that my body skills are getting "sharper" with use.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-30-2006 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 05-30-2006, 09:11 AM   #418
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I am once again surprised at the tone or suggestion tendered. That some would suppose folks openly teach details in seminars to strangers. Astounded even. I have been to those offered by many of the seniors in Aikido-the top people in the country at the time, and those in Daito ryu, and those in Koryu...many times.
I have never seen the good stuff taught in detail -to a stranger- in an open room......ever.
I think Jim is voicing scepticism and frankly, I think he's right to do so, Dan. Everyone, if you look at their "credentials" they publish, their claims of what they can do, yada, yada, would appear to know everything. But obviously they don't, as many of us have experienced over the years... so talk is cheap.

I did a workshop in Pacific Grove, years ago, and I had agreed to let a Chinese yiquan teacher just sit and watch. About half-way through the first day, he got up and went into the house attached to the dojo and, according to a person in the house, began screaming in outrage, "Mike Sigman is showing them everything!". I wasn't... I didn't know everything then and I don't know everything now. I'm an amateur, but I showed what I could show, based on where they are.

This "tradition" of doling stuff out slowly gets pretty absurd when it is the "expected" form of behaviour. One of the real downsides of the true experts slowly doling out information is that a lot of people who really don't know much can use that tradition as a guise to stretch out what little they know and pretend that it's just the tip of the iceberg of their true knowledge.

I say lay it out on the table, Dan, if you know anything. Forget the "koryu" and "tradition" stuff.... you don't think most of this martial-arts "hash" being taught everywhere is really any sort of "koryu", do you? What's this about you collecting information from other sources and adding it to what you know... is that part of the legitimate stuff that you are sworn not to show, too? C'mon... some of this stuff gets a little whacky.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-30-2006, 09:33 AM   #419
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

A lot of it get's whacky...come'on, you've got a bunch of people who dress funny and strike wierd poses doling out information for money.

But at it's heart, you also have the relationships between students and teachers. Some students are really attentive, and do the work, others not so much. Same for the teachers. And before we fault the teachers who "have the goods" we're speaking of too much for doling this stuff out, you have to ask how the the old proverb about "casting pearls before swine" applies.

It may be true that a lot of this is hard to get even if shown directly, but at the same time, there are people who said "if someone see's this once, they can steal the technique", or words to that effect. So they would show the waza once, and move on. I've been taught that if I hear my teacher say something once, don't expect to hear it repeated. Listen up the first time 'round.

I've lost track of what I'm trying to say...

Best,
Ron

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Old 05-30-2006, 09:35 AM   #420
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Not really that whacky Mike

It all depends on our word. I understand your point and where it gets frustrating or even laughable if you prefer. But if we give our word to someone-it's done.
Example: Rob has shared some Yagyu Training methods with me that I am enjoying. But there are those in Yagyu that would have had restrictions on showing the very same things. Ark got them- so he can show- where others might not be able to even discuss it. Does that make sense? Not that you have to agree.

As for mixing? It is why I used the example of being appreciative of where we get information, not lying and claiming we already knew it and just in general thanking people who will share-even behind closed doors and out of ear shot. But that also means not betraying commitments-behind closed doors and out of ear shot. I can use things for MMA and body skills that are cross spectrum and non art-specific but I would never............ever...teach or show them in their art-specific form. Others I would not show at all under any terms to anyone. There are folks reading this who know exactly what I am talking about.

On the other hand I have seen too many guy waste time on students who are half assed or won't train. So who can blame them for holding back.

The real dilema of Koryu is whether part of the preservation of the things we are talking about came from holding back from dillution of the less talented-also prevented great strides that could have occurred had they been shown or made available to others with greater skills and vision whoever that may be.

You have more freedom. Enjoy it. But judging from your writing I would never expect you to violate a trust or go back on your word.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-30-2006 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 05-30-2006, 09:40 AM   #421
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi all,

this thread has taken on a life of its own!

It is interesting to read the 'mechanical' descriptions of the ki/internal exercises under discussion. I for one, am lost when reading some of them, and if I didn't already practice them I'm not sure that they would help me 'get' them. Intellectual understanding is one thing, being able to do something is a different matter.
I accept that there are physical explanations to all of these 'tricks' but it seems there are few exponents of the 'mind's' side in the equation.
Of course correct alignment of the skeleton is crucial, as is movement from the centre. This allows for the most efficient and effective use of the body. These basic skills are easy for some and difficult for others.
With an exercise like 'unraisable body' all the mechanical explanation in the world would not help me 'get' this, I learnt it through being taught different ways of thinking. Human beings are dynamic creatures we are moved by our will, our bodies carry out our intentions. When being lifted as in the unraisable body exercise, the lifters mind is going up, my mind is also 'up' and therefore in agreement not conflict, and surprisingly 'unliftable' This goes against 'logic' and I have no idea how a 'mechanic' would vector the whole process. This can be learned by a beginner in a few minutes, but to be able to keep this state under pressure is going to take much practice, as Dan and Mike have both written about
When taken a step further, this exercise can be progressed as follows, when the lifter goes to lift they tend to naturally dip down befor they go up under the arms to attempt to raise the body of the 'stander', if at this precise moment and the trick is in the timing, the stander 'agrees' with this 'down' by thinking 'down' himself, the lifter is put at a great disadvantage, they can't seem to generate any upward power.
This is of course an exercise, I can do it as can many others, If you haven't done it before and you try it and it doesn't work for you, don't come back to me saying it's rubbish, it's just that you don't know how to do it.
The mind leads the body, this is ultimately the reason that 'effortless' aikido is possible, this is greatly helped by practice in these ki/internal skills. I'm sure that 'good' aikido happens without explicit training in ki developement. The best way to get these skills if you want them is to train with a teacher who has mastered them him/herself. I don't know in the larger scheme of things how many teachers are in this category. I was just lucky that I happened to practice with someone who can do and teach a multitude of the types of 'exercise' under discussion.

Just a few thoughts

regards
Mark

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Old 05-30-2006, 09:52 AM   #422
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Hi George,This is not quite right. Some of the Daito Ryu folks are just talking. Others, like Kondo, Okamoto, and Roy Goldberg, are doing open seminars. As the saying goes, talk is cheap. Or as my Italian grandfather used to say, "The mouth is a wonderful instrument. It is the only tool which grows sharper through constant use."

Jim
I don't know Roy Goldberg but it is generally the case that the other folks don't dish out the higher level stuff at open seminars. I heard from one person at the Expo that this was a source of frustration for Kondo Sensei because everyone was oohing and ahhing over some other teachers who were not operating under such constraints doing things he was perfectly capable of doing but couldn't show people outside the art.

It's a bit difficult to get at this stuff. It's not that you can't see it around you... I mean, Saotome Sensei clearly had some take on it. He is 135 lbs and I am 300 lbs and he handles me effortlessly. But he learned this stuff largely intuitively and doesn't have a very developed verbal way of explaining it. I have noticed that since he got a chance to meet Ushiro Sensei, he is making an effort to do more systematic explanation of the principles involved.

That was one thing I really liked about Kuroda Sensei at the Expos... he didn't even teach waza; he just taught body mechanics. All sorts of things became clear to me after that experience. I'm perfectly capable of working through my technqiue and applying the principles once I understand them.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 05-30-2006, 09:55 AM   #423
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Example: Rob has shared some Yagyu Training methods with me that I am enjoying. But there are those in Yagyu that would have had restrictions on showing the very same things. Ark got them- so he can show- where others might not be able to even discuss it. Does that make sense? Not that you have to agree.
Rob doesn't tell all that he knows. I don't either (I'm careful with the real pearls, Ron). But when we're discussing these obvious basic building-block levels, not something sophisticated, the idea of "secrets" gets a little absurd.
Quote:
On the other hand I have seen too many guy waste time on students who are half assed or won't train. So who can blame them for holding back.
That's true... notice my caveat about showing what they're ready for. The bigger hindrance I run into is people who already know everything, in their own minds. It's a waste of time to show them anything. Ever watch me deliberately piss someone off to the extent I know they would never lower themselves to coming to a workshop? I do it on purpose.
Quote:
But judging from your writing I would never expect you to violate a trust or go back on your word.
That's just because I'm anal-retentive, Dan... I was toilet-trained at gunpoint.


Mike
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Old 05-30-2006, 10:06 AM   #424
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I accept that there are physical explanations to all of these 'tricks' but it seems there are few exponents of the 'mind's' side in the equation.
Of course correct alignment of the skeleton is crucial, as is movement from the centre. This allows for the most efficient and effective use of the body. These basic skills are easy for some and difficult for others.
Mark, good alignment is a plus, for several reasons not just the transmission of the force, but it's not critical. If you really have good mind/body skills, the particular alignment is not that critical. But we're nowhere near that sort of discussion on this forum, as far as I see.
Quote:
With an exercise like 'unraisable body' all the mechanical explanation in the world would not help me 'get' this, I learnt it through being taught different ways of thinking.
I can explain it pretty clearly, Mark, but it would mean introducing factors we're not discussing in the thread and which take some practice to understand. I.e., what I'm saying is that any feat which has physically demonstrable effects can be analysed physically.
Quote:
Human beings are dynamic creatures we are moved by our will, our bodies carry out our intentions. When being lifted as in the unraisable body exercise, the lifters mind is going up, my mind is also 'up' and therefore in agreement not conflict, and surprisingly 'unliftable' This goes against 'logic' and I have no idea how a 'mechanic' would vector the whole process. This can be learned by a beginner in a few minutes, but to be able to keep this state under pressure is going to take much practice, as Dan and Mike have both written about
When taken a step further, this exercise can be progressed as follows, when the lifter goes to lift they tend to naturally dip down befor they go up under the arms to attempt to raise the body of the 'stander', if at this precise moment and the trick is in the timing, the stander 'agrees' with this 'down' by thinking 'down' himself, the lifter is put at a great disadvantage, they can't seem to generate any upward power.
This is of course an exercise, I can do it as can many others, If you haven't done it before and you try it and it doesn't work for you, don't come back to me saying it's rubbish, it's just that you don't know how to do it.
The mind leads the body, this is ultimately the reason that 'effortless' aikido is possible, this is greatly helped by practice in these ki/internal skills. I'm sure that 'good' aikido happens without explicit training in ki developement. The best way to get these skills if you want them is to train with a teacher who has mastered them him/herself. I don't know in the larger scheme of things how many teachers are in this category. I was just lucky that I happened to practice with someone who can do and teach a multitude of the types of 'exercise' under discussion.
I see your perspective, Mark, and my position is that there are much clearer ways to describe and analyse what you've just talked about. IMO, if you really understand what is going on, then you can apply the principles like an engineer does, to relevant situations. If you just know what to do in certain situations, it's more of a "technician's" approach. What do you think physically happens to your body when you do the "unraisable" trick. Where, for instance, is the force coming from? How does it get to the lifters' hands? And so on?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-30-2006, 11:33 AM   #425
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Some important vectors The Secrets of Judo (1960) diagrams:

gravity
back foot pushing down
reaction from foot pushing down
body moving forward
a limb going out (for example, a punch)
force which the muscles of the abdomen exert

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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