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Old 04-25-2006, 01:54 AM   #51
Hanna B
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Why does an orange belt practice with a black belt?
All dojos I have been in mix levels on the tatami.
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Old 04-25-2006, 01:57 AM   #52
Hanna B
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off topic: practise styles

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
To get the most out of training, it might be worth it to look into not taking the "easy" way out and changing the vector to effect the technique. Rather if its difficult to perform the technique because they're clamping down, try and feel why its hard to effect the technique in that direction.
What I will say now is very different from the views that some of you have. I am aware of that.

Trying to perform technique that someone else is clamping down on is good for experienced people. Having pre-dan people trying to do that easily makes them all tense up and make little progress.

Yes, this is one way of structuring training. There are others.
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:14 AM   #53
dps
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Re: off topic: practise styles

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:

Trying to perform technique that someone else is clamping down on is good for experienced people. Having pre-dan people trying to do that easily makes them all tense up and make little progress.

.
Should the orange belt uke not tell the black belt nage( either verbally or physically) that his technique is wrong?
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:32 AM   #54
Hanna B
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Re: off topic: practise styles

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Should the orange belt uke not tell the black belt nage( either verbally or physically) that his technique is wrong?
Our opinions differs as to whether the ability to shut a technique down proves that it is wrong. There is quite a bit written on that subject on the thread already.
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Old 04-25-2006, 06:50 AM   #55
Dennis Good
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

I believe that part of Uke's responsibility is to give feedback and as they gain experience they can give more precise feedback. Sensei cannot see everything at all times and it also causes people to think critically about the technique which will cause an understanding of the technique not just regurgitation. It is not a challenge to the teachers authority to give constructive criticism to your partner as long as it is done in an appropriate manner. The problem is that some people need to learn to leave there ego's at the door. I myself love when someone I'm working with gives me feedback to improve my technique.
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Old 04-25-2006, 09:04 AM   #56
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Why does an orange belt practice with a black belt?
That one is easy: he wants to learn. But why did this sandan accepted the orange belt as partner?
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Old 04-25-2006, 09:14 AM   #57
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: off topic: practise styles

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Should the orange belt uke not tell the black belt nage( either verbally or physically) that his technique is wrong?
He should not try to tell him, that his technique is wrong, in our dojo. We have a strict sempai kohai hierarchie. Just imagine a dojo, where orange belts tell sandan "You have to put your foot here ", or "You have to put the pin this way", while they just did not realse that advanced students are told to train at their level and mostly have to or at least are allowed to practise variations.

He should just move as he feels and as he has learnt. it is the sandan's task to understand that he has a problem with the technique and probably not with this uke. And if uke makes a mistake, the sandan has to tell him (verbally or preferred technically), what uke did wrong.

All the best Dirk
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Old 04-25-2006, 11:00 AM   #58
Qatana
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

In my dojo, kohai DO help sempai when they are able to. I will take correction from my kohai because sometimes they have more skill and experience than I do,even though I might have the higher ranking.Also, most of them are bigger than I am and I am grateful for any hints they can give me about "getting" them.At least I also have the satisfaction of knowing that sometimes my sempai cannot "get" me.and I actually enjoy having technique switched on me-if I know what the attack is sometimes I do find myself taking a fall I really didn't need to, but if nage switches technique on my I Must be open and ready to respond differently.
Why do Yudansha train with Mudansha? To learn, to teach & to train.Or, because they are there.

Q
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Old 04-25-2006, 01:04 PM   #59
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Why do Yudansha train with Mudansha? To learn, to teach & to train.Or, because they are there.
Yes Jo,
this would be my answer, too - in general. That's why I asked for THIS sandan, who after failing in applying a techniques runs to the chief instructor and wines about that ugly orange belt - I do not want to judge, I said only, how it looks like after only hearing one side's aspect.

About kohai-sempai communication, it is fine, if it works at your dojo. I guess there are limits, though. And between 4th kyu and 3rd dan there is a lot difference in experience and hopefully skills.

The other reason, why my sensei introduced that strict rule is, that he doesn't want to have too much chat on the mat, he wants his students practise. It is not really lived that strict. One grade higher or lower is seen by us students as equally graded, and from acceptance point of view, effective skills are more important than formal grade.

Cheers Dirk
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:40 PM   #60
Suwariwazaman
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Talking Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Personally I like to trian with a sempai, that way I can learn more. I still believe in communication between senior students, and lower rank students. This ensures your learning it correctly. I knoe not always, but I do believe the senior students can learn from the beginner, because they were once a beginner. I had 1 one time opportunity to talk to Yamada Sensei at a seminar he came to. He was the best. He took his time with me, even if it was for just a moment, and showed me where to step. We were doing an iriminage technique. And my partner was a student from Charlotte Aikikai, or New Jersey, cant remember, but he was also very patient, understanding. I think I had been doing Aikido at that time for about a year. I was sort of a newbie, in retrospect. Still am!
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Old 04-25-2006, 04:22 PM   #61
Brian Vickery
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
But why did this sandan accepted the orange belt as partner?
...working with newbies is the ultimate test in your skill level! If you don't do the technique properly, they just stand there! They don't know that they're supposed to fall! But at the same time, you must temper the technique so as not to harm them, but still execute the technique! It's the best way to continue to hone your skills!

...the other side of the coin is taking ukemi for a newby!!! ..and that's the really scary side! ...you never know what they're going to do since they're not sure what they're doing ...it keeps your ukemi skills fine tuned!

...training with mudansha keeps you honest!

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 04-25-2006, 06:06 PM   #62
actoman
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

We were all in line formation attacking the waiting Nidan one at a time. Once I had the Jo, he couldn;t fell me. I was not trying to be a hardass, and I know how to breakfall pretty well, so he had nothing to do but the technique, and I don't stand there, I move with the technique.

Honesty is the best policy no?
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:51 PM   #63
dps
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
We were all in line formation attacking the waiting Nidan one at a time.
How did the blackbelt do when the other students in line? Was he able to do the technique against them?
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:10 AM   #64
Amir Krause
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
We were all in line formation attacking the waiting Nidan one at a time. Once I had the Jo, he couldn;t fell me. I was not trying to be a hardass, and I know how to breakfall pretty well, so he had nothing to do but the technique, and I don't stand there, I move with the technique.

Honesty is the best policy no?
Without being there, it is impossible to know. Looking at the sub-text of your message, I have a feeling I could identify with the sensei first mentioned. You seem to brag of your ability to nullify a technique. Hence, you let your own ego sneak in, instead of being an honest Uke.

Before you feel so well with yourself, I would like to ask you a few leading questions:

1. Did you know in advance the technique to be executed?
If you did, it is very likely you changed your attack to ease your movement afterwards, and moving with the technique becomes much easier.

2. What is this Nidan concept of your Ukemi capabilities?
More then once I gave up on doing a technique on someone because I was not certain he could take it. At least not at the speed his attack required of me. This is twice as true when I realize they alter the attack in a way that forestalls the planned technique but opens them wide for another. Obviously, if I believe in the others Ukemi, I will let loose and do my best.

4. Did you execute the Attack correctly?
A common problem with beginners is their lack of confidence in their attack. In order of being certain they will not have an accident, they do not really attack- either they attack a slightly different target (ahead of me, to my side, etc.) or they stop their attack just before it should hit. This is even more often when attacking with weapons. These changes may seem minor to you, but stopping the attack before it should hit significantly changes the body dynamics and timing for Aikido techniques. An advance student is likely to realize what is going on, and given the type of training you wrote about (multiple attackers line), simply let you be without caring (I know I have done this more then once).

4. How realistic was the scenario ?
One should remember that when someone is attacking you in a realistic manner with a weapon, even at 2/3 speed, variable timing and mae prior to a free attack, success rates of 50% are very nice. The sharp blade weapons (Tanto/knife, Sword/Ken, short sword/ Wakizashi/Kodachi) are more difficult then the blunt ones (Jo, Rokshaku). And, unless Uke is very skilled, it is often easier to ace longer weapons then shorter ones, because when using a longer

Amir
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:44 AM   #65
Hanna B
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
We were all in line formation attacking the waiting Nidan one at a time. Once I had the Jo, he couldn;t fell me. I was not trying to be a hardass, and I know how to breakfall pretty well, so he had nothing to do but the technique, and I don't stand there, I move with the technique.

Honesty is the best policy no?
I suggest you ask your teacher what the point of this kind of exercise is, and what optimal uke behaviour in this context looks like. Maybe he will suggest a slightly different attitude compared to paired practise, maybe not.
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Old 04-26-2006, 04:02 AM   #66
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
We were all in line formation attacking the waiting Nidan one at a time. Once I had the Jo, he couldn;t fell me. I was not trying to be a hardass, and I know how to breakfall pretty well, so he had nothing to do but the technique, and I don't stand there, I move with the technique.

Honesty is the best policy no?
Whenever I did such an exercise, it was mostly a pure ukemi exercise, i.e. the jo was used to support your ukemi, not to enforce it. I guess, he should have told you. In this case you did not only stop the nidan from doing the technique, but also the whole row, waiting for doing their part.

In one to one practice, you probably were right - in some dojo.

Dirk
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Old 04-26-2006, 04:22 AM   #67
wmreed
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I'll ask these questions again, because I can't find the answers in this thread:

What was it that your sensei actually said to you? What did he tell you that you should have done? What specifically was it that he was upset about?

William M. Reed
Columbus, OH USA
wmreed@columbus.rr.com
"I'm not the author William Reed -- yet."
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Old 04-26-2006, 05:35 AM   #68
Hanna B
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Whenever I did such an exercise, it was mostly a pure ukemi exercise, i.e. the jo was used to support your ukemi, not to enforce it.
For tori, I have seen that kind of training as training in handling stress. Compared with several attackers who come from whatever angle they choose, in this exercise focus can be put primarily on timing and on... well, handling stress. I am sure it can be done with many different purposes, though.

I agree it sounds like the instructor could be more clear about what it is he wants and does not want in such an exercise.
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Old 04-26-2006, 06:20 AM   #69
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
For tori, I have seen that kind of training as training in handling stress.
potentially, Hanna - but does it match to a (nidan) tori trying several times a technique, before iriminage Andy? He might got messed up in that stress situation, but then he should not claim anyone other's fault at all, should he?


Dirk
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Old 04-26-2006, 08:42 AM   #70
actoman
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
Without being there, it is impossible to know. Looking at the sub-text of your message, I have a feeling I could identify with the sensei first mentioned. You seem to brag of your ability to nullify a technique. Hence, you let your own ego sneak in, instead of being an honest Uke.

Before you feel so well with yourself, I would like to ask you a few leading questions:

1. Did you know in advance the technique to be executed?
If you did, it is very likely you changed your attack to ease your movement afterwards, and moving with the technique becomes much easier.

2. What is this Nidan concept of your Ukemi capabilities?
More then once I gave up on doing a technique on someone because I was not certain he could take it. At least not at the speed his attack required of me. This is twice as true when I realize they alter the attack in a way that forestalls the planned technique but opens them wide for another. Obviously, if I believe in the others Ukemi, I will let loose and do my best.

4. Did you execute the Attack correctly?
A common problem with beginners is their lack of confidence in their attack. In order of being certain they will not have an accident, they do not really attack- either they attack a slightly different target (ahead of me, to my side, etc.) or they stop their attack just before it should hit. This is even more often when attacking with weapons. These changes may seem minor to you, but stopping the attack before it should hit significantly changes the body dynamics and timing for Aikido techniques. An advance student is likely to realize what is going on, and given the type of training you wrote about (multiple attackers line), simply let you be without caring (I know I have done this more then once).

4. How realistic was the scenario ?
One should remember that when someone is attacking you in a realistic manner with a weapon, even at 2/3 speed, variable timing and mae prior to a free attack, success rates of 50% are very nice. The sharp blade weapons (Tanto/knife, Sword/Ken, short sword/ Wakizashi/Kodachi) are more difficult then the blunt ones (Jo, Rokshaku). And, unless Uke is very skilled, it is often easier to ace longer weapons then shorter ones, because when using a longer

Amir
Well, first of all, I don't think so 'well' of myself as you put it, and I am in no way an egotist. I am there to learn aikido, that is all. I was not 'trying' to do anything and no he didnt know the technique he was about to use, nor did I. I consider my Ukemi skills to be above par as I can take hard breakfalls and roll out of techniques.

I don't believe myself to be anything other than a good uke at times and a bad at others. I didnt want to just 'fall' and make him believe it was easy. If he is a Dan rank he should have had me no problem. I moved with his attempts to fell me, and he couldnt get me, that is all.

So he felled me with an Iriminage, which did work. I dunno, I've seen other ukes do the same and he had trouble with some of the others too, but not many. I dunno.
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:55 AM   #71
dps
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Hi Andy,

When I am practicing with another student I see a rank to rank relationship, a nage to uke relationship and a student to student relationship.
How do I treat a higher rank partner vs a lower rank partner?
What is my role as nage or uke?
How can I help my partner without interfering with his or my learning.

I find it difficult sometimes to mesh or integrate these three together.
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:59 AM   #72
akiy
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Hi folks,

Here is a really good article on the subject of the importance of choosing partners of different experience levels written by Chiba sensei that touches on some of the subjects discussed in this thread:

http://www.aikidoonline.com/Archives..._tkc_1098.html

-- Jun

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Old 04-28-2006, 06:05 AM   #73
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

My favorite kind of uke is a new student who has experience in other martial arts. They have yet to train their instincts to their newly adopted style, but they can take a fall and tell the difference between convincing and unconvincing techniques. If they smile when you slam them, they'll make a fine future uke indeed!

Personally, I rarely block anyone's technique, preferring to skip right to the communication part. It keeps things nice and safe. Sort of a "that was good but this could be better" approach rather than a "absolutely not, do this" approach.
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:57 AM   #74
justin
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

[quote=Lyle Bogin]My favorite kind of uke is a new student who has experience in other martial arts. They have yet to train their instincts to their newly adopted style, but they can take a fall and tell the difference between convincing and unconvincing techniques. If they smile when you slam them, they'll make a fine future uke indeed!



thats a very fine line to draw i come from 10 years of wado karate and find it tricky to know when to fall and when not to without either being a push over or being seen as awkward which isnt my intention at all, so please cut us some slack its very new and complicated for the first year or two,I am heading into my second year and only now starting to get the hang of it.

but hell its fun.
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:28 AM   #75
jonreading
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Uke waza skill is underappreciated in many respects. Often, we set up micro environments and train with the conclusion of the technique a "fall;" if we do not achieve the "fall" we feel the technique is complete, which can be humbling. However, aikido works because communication (musubi) between partners exists to illustrate the proper response from our partners; if the proper response is to fall, then the question should be "why is my partner not understanding what I want him/her to do?"

That said, the only occasion I usually approach a student to correct falling for their partner is when technique is applied correctly and uke is clearly absorbing pain and not responding to the technique; I stop this situation because of the danger of damaging an unresponsive uke. Many of us have held out from nikyo or kotegashi one second too long and experienced that pain/damage first-hand...
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