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Old 04-22-2006, 09:27 AM   #26
dps
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

I was taught that during practice when you are Uke you were suppose to be practicing your breakfalls and rolls. The Sensei was the one to judge if Nage was doing the technique right.
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Old 04-23-2006, 02:31 PM   #27
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I was taught that during practice when you are Uke you were suppose to be practicing your breakfalls and rolls. The Sensei was the one to judge if Nage was doing the technique right.
That is totally true - for beginners.
It is awful, when I uke jumps or rolls before I have done anything - how to hell shall I learn to do the technique correctly? I hate this.

There are hundreds of reasons, why a technique might not work - and if there is a huge difference in grading, it is always the fault of the higher graded aikidoka.

Honestly - uke might stand or move in a way to make the desired technique impossible. Then nage can
1) show him what is wrong
2) tell him how to do it right
3) change the technique.
So maybe that nage did iriminage was a valid solution. I alsways thought, yudansha should have ways to change better, at least, if they have several tries - but I have not been there, so I cannot judge.

To me it sounds rather strange, that a yudansha is not tell his uke , what uke did wrong, but complains at the chief instructor. I can understand, if the chief instructor tells his student, that his behaviour was incorrect, but only after hearing both sides and not without telling him what he did wrong and why it was wrong.

Well even if I do not understand the reason, there might be a good one. A simple but stupid idea is, that your chief instructor wanted to teach you a non-combat aikido lesson. Th original poster of this thread had been attacked and he thinks it was an unfair attack. So now he has to react. He can wait for his "bad nage" somewher in the night and beat him down - might work, might not, but it is not good aikido. He might leave the dojo, where he was treated badly. He might find a better one, but at this stage it does not look like good aikido- it could be the ultimate choice in the end, however.
He might go to the chief instructor and tell him: " Sensei, I still do not understand my mistake. can you teach me how to fall correctly, if I do not feel, I should." That might not be a good reaction for an aikido master, but for an aikido student.

He might find his own solution. I will probably not be perfect, but it will be a step on his path of Aiki.

just my 1.5 cts.


Dirk
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Old 04-23-2006, 04:34 PM   #28
dps
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
That is totally true - for beginners.
This is totally true all the time no matter how long you have practiced Aikido.
If you were not told by your sensei to instruct or not ask by your nage or uke for help, then your job as nage is to practice your technique and as uke is to practice your fall or roll. Your sensei is responsible for determination if a technique is right or not and is the one to correct mistakes.
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Old 04-23-2006, 05:10 PM   #29
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Interesting. I tell my students that their job as uke is to continually move to a position of better advantage. Sometimes that is falling, sometimes that is the obvious punch, sometimes that is kaeishi (sp?), sometimes it is even running away. It is almost never standing like a lump though. If an uke that I am training with falls without me throwing him or her I ask if I am doing the technique to quickly for them to be comfortable. I'd rather do it slow and right than quickly and have uke fall spontaneously.

My two bits anyhow,

Paul
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Old 04-23-2006, 05:49 PM   #30
wmreed
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

After further thought, I'd like to amend my "definition" of an uke's job from my previous post.

Uke has two crucial roles (not rolls, pardon the pun):
1) To protect themselves from injury.
2) To make nage do the best that they can -- which might be to fall, or might be to resist, it might be to stand like a lump. It depends on the level of nage, and the aspect of the technique that sensei has asked student to focus on.

To ONLY frustrate nage is improper, to frustrate them and them communicate why they are not falling MAY be proper, to seek harmony in practice is USUALLY (ALWAYS?) proper.

MOHO,

Bill

William M. Reed
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wmreed@columbus.rr.com
"I'm not the author William Reed -- yet."
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Old 04-23-2006, 05:53 PM   #31
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
All,

I didn't work, so I was honest and didn't fall. He tried again, and everything he tried simply was not making me fall. So finally he took me down with an Iriminage.
All too common, unfortunately. Worse, in return he will likely refuse to fall for you - lest you appear better than him - and will resist your technique by all means possible to show you that you can't do it either. Viscous circle to nowhere. At least, however, eventually, he took you down with another technique ... like ... what is so wrong with 'change' as a viable concept? (Except that he should have done it immediately, in my opinion).

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Old 04-23-2006, 06:10 PM   #32
Upyu
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

(To the original poster)
The fact that your teacher even thought to chastise you for what happened is pretty indicative of his level, (having not even met the guy).
I know it sounds harsh, but you might want to reevaluate where you're training.
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Old 04-23-2006, 09:49 PM   #33
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
The next day, I walked into the dojo early and Our head Sensei approached me and told me that 'my control' was not there and that the senior student was upset with me.
I'm not saying that this is the best approach, but any time someone is upset with me I appologize for the misunderstanding and try to work on figuring it out with the person directly. If what you described was all that was said (ie-"control" issues), I'd ask for more details. Sometimes, though, the answer isn't always readily apparent and you just have to keep on keepin' on and eventually, with diligence, it will likely work itself out. Still, regardless of the technique itself, I think it's important to foster a working relationship with the people we train with...it makes training more fun and productive.

Quote:
I have not approached the student nor tried to explain away what I beleived was simply being a good uke against a non-working technique. I think he'd appreciate my honesty and it would only make him better in the long run.
The only thing i can say to this is remember that you both likely feel you were being as honest as possible in that sitution. In that vein, you probably both feel equally that the other should appreciate the honest intention of making one another better in the long run.
Gambatte!
Matthew

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-24-2006, 01:16 AM   #34
PeterR
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

What can I say but time and place. The level of resistance uke is required to put out depends on what is being worked on.

Its easy for beginners (and even more advanced visitors) to miss what's obvious to everyone else.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-24-2006, 02:00 AM   #35
Hanna B
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
I didnt work, so I was honest and didnt fall. He tried again, and everything he tried simply was not making me fall. So finally he took me down with an Iriminage.
This is a very common and often recommended way of dealing with an uke who makes it difficult to perform a certain technique. Most commonly are people who resist kokyonage and just will not be led forward - they can easily be led backwards instead. If you are making another technique easy to perform, you are not resisting in a good way. This is something that takes quite a while to learn, though. Resisting in good ways is difficult.

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
The next day, I walked into the dojo early and Our head Sensei approached me and told me that 'my control' was not there and that the senior student was upset with me.
Hopefully, in a couple of years your senior student will be able to do the same thing without being upset with you since you probably acted in good faith - or simply ask you too loosen up a bit, since he is searching for the way to do it.
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Old 04-24-2006, 02:21 AM   #36
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
This is totally true all the time no matter how long you have practiced Aikido.
If you were not told by your sensei to instruct or not ask by your nage or uke for help, then your job as nage is to practice your technique and as uke is to practice your fall or roll. Your sensei is responsible for determination if a technique is right or not and is the one to correct mistakes.
Fine, David
that is the rule in your dojo. I accept this, when I am a guest, but as regular student, I would probably change dojo. I'ld rather go with Paul Shipley's explanation.

But for me, it is much more of interest, how one deal with this situation. probably Andy orwig should have done his ukemi (taken the technique). But if there is no one to tell him, what, why, and why he should fall, he is probably not able to do it right the next time. Just "Your role is to fall" is somewhat frustrating.


Kind regards


Dirk
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Old 04-24-2006, 02:25 AM   #37
Hanna B
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
I was taught that during practice when you are Uke you were suppose to be practicing your breakfalls and rolls.
This varies in different dojos and training styles. I would say that when you are uke, you are supposed to be practicing your uke role - which includes breakfalls and rolls, but contains more than that.
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Old 04-24-2006, 02:42 AM   #38
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I'm with Dirk, Paul, and Hanna here. In my dojo if we don't resist techniques, the sensei is unhappy. That's not to say we jam techniques. But we have to fall because nage did something effective: took our balance, took our center.

I once used my height and strength advantage and didn't fall for a female sempai. She didn't get upset, she just tried to figure out what she was doing wrong. Sensei was pleased. He came over, gave her a few pointers, and after that...ouch. Everyone was happy. She got a technique to work against a larger, stronger, resisting opponent, and I got to practice effective ukemi against effective technique.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:55 AM   #39
Amir Krause
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

While I find the Sensei reaction quite peculiar. Personally, I feel we are only getting a small part of the whole picture.

I would like to point that your description of the situation does not clarify if the failure of the shodan to throw you in the "pre-designed" technique was his or your fault. Being a good Uke is vary difficult, sometimes just the knowledge of the intended technique is enough for a person to change the attack in a way that invalidates the specific technique. A new Shodan might not be able to realize this yet and could get very frustrated since sometimes the differences are very subtle, and I can write this from experience at both ends of this rope.

The purpose of Uke in our dojo is to help one study and improve. This would mean correcting the technique while falling for a Yudansha acting as Uke for a beginner. Honest reaction to the acts of Tori/Shidachi is considered a correct response for a non beginner Uke - sowing him the directions of force he is applying and assisting him to correct them. Resistance based on force or changes to the situation are normally discouraged - this way is not helpful for either to learn. When practicing with advanced Yudansha, we adjust to the purpose of the practice: if we are exploring a technique, we will try our best to give an honest neutral reaction, we could pressure test a technique and then Tori/Shidachi would have to be very exact, and may find any hole left open. Being a good Uke with and advanced Tori/Shidachi should also mean doing your best to hit Tori/Shidachi in your attack given specific instruction from Sensei and a proficient (non beginner) Tori/Shidachi . Resistance based on force or changes to the situation are normally discouraged - this way is not helpful for either to learn.

Amir
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:27 AM   #40
Hanna B
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
I'm with Dirk, Paul, and Hanna here. In my dojo if we don't resist techniques, the sensei is unhappy.
You understood me partly right. I have trained in dojos where resistance is the training method, and in dojos where resistance is a big no-no. In either way, uke's role is more to me than just taking the fall. In the case where the training method partly relies on the uke resisting, ukes role certainly is more than falling and resisting. It often takes more time to understand that, though, than in the non-resisting training method.
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:59 AM   #41
dps
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

In the dojo there is an authority structure ( chain of command) with the sensei at the top. Sensei's dojo, sensei's rules. Sensei determines how the students interact during practice. Resistance, no resistance, little resistance, alot of resistance is up to how sensei wants it. If you practice under a different sensei you practice under different rules. If you can not figure out the rules, ask. If you want to learn bad enough you will follow the rules. If you do not like the rules, don't practice with that sensei.

Practically speaking, if your in a fight the person attacking you may not to do a perfect Aikido
technique, if he knows Aikido at all. You are not going to know what is coming at you. In your daily life you may need to take a fall because you accidently trip, fall of a ladder or have your nine year old daughter trip you at the roller skating rink while you are helping her skate.
You need to know how to fall so you do not hurt yourself or somebody else. Where else are you going to practice this but in the safe environment of the dojo with the help of your fellow students?
If nage does not do the technique right, learn how to take a fall from that imperfect technique.
What you learn as uke is just as important as what you learn as nage.

Best regards Dirk. I wish I could Uke for you.
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Old 04-24-2006, 06:32 AM   #42
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
You understood me partly right.
No, I understood you completely. I was merely using my dojo as an example of a dojo where uke's job was not to merely practice their ukemi. I was not extrapolating that to any other dojo.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 04-24-2006, 06:33 AM   #43
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Thank you David,
you could do a lot of Ukemi from imperfect or even improper technique. And I promise you, I will even fall for you

I - nearly - fully agree with this post, we could discuss this in depth, but for this thread I am more concerned about a sempai (senior yudansha), who seems not to be able to tell or show his kohai, what was wrong and how to improve, but complains about this kohai to the chief instructor after training. And why the Sensei fulminates against Andy, seemingly without explaining explaining the case in detail.

Best regards

Dirk
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Old 04-24-2006, 06:37 AM   #44
actoman
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

I agree with all of you.

The sempai (Dan student who is Nidan), and pretty good at that, simply didn't have me to get me off balance. I relaxed (more than usual) and that made me feel stronger and actually a bit 'immovable'. I told him during the technique that 'he didnt' have me', just to be helpful, and I heard an earfull the next time I got to class from Sensei (head instructor).

If he'd had my balance I surely would have fallen, but he didnt. I don't want to be unrealistic or dishonest to myself and just fall.

By the way Rob, nope, not the same instructor, different dojo too. I like it other than this incident
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Old 04-24-2006, 07:14 AM   #45
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
I relaxed (more than usual) and that made me feel stronger and actually a bit 'immovable'. I told him during the technique that 'he didnt' have me', just to be helpful, and I heard an earfull the next time I got to class from Sensei (head instructor).
Hi Andy, here is a hint about what could be your fault. If you relexed, you probably did not attack, but waited relaxed for nage's action. If you did not attack, nage could not respond to an attack, but had to attack by himself. Unbalance you by redirecting your power is much easier than unbalancing you from a stable stance using nage's own power. I thought a nidan should be able to handle that, but at least he should be able to tell you, what was wrong.

All the best

Dirk
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Old 04-24-2006, 07:51 AM   #46
actoman
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

He stopped me good, and my forward motion, but once he was attempting to take control, he 'lost' me.

I dunno, I'll try to talk to him.
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Old 04-24-2006, 07:57 AM   #47
Amir Krause
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
In the dojo there is an authority structure ( chain of command) with the sensei at the top. Sensei's dojo, sensei's rules. Sensei determines how the students interact during practice. Resistance, no resistance, little resistance, alot of resistance is up to how sensei wants it. If you practice under a different sensei you practice under different rules. If you can not figure out the rules, ask. If you want to learn bad enough you will follow the rules. If you do not like the rules, don't practice with that sensei.
Could not agree with the above.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Practically speaking, if your in a fight the person attacking you may not to do a perfect Aikido
technique, if he knows Aikido at all. You are not going to know what is coming at you. In your daily life you may need to take a fall because you accidently trip, fall of a ladder or have your nine year old daughter trip you at the roller skating rink while you are helping her skate.
You need to know how to fall so you do not hurt yourself or somebody else. Where else are you going to practice this but in the safe environment of the dojo with the help of your fellow students?
If nage does not do the technique right, learn how to take a fall from that imperfect technique.
What you learn as uke is just as important as what you learn as nage.
I also agree with the needs you present here, and the conclusion that falling should be learned in the Dojo. But this does not mean that being Uke should normally equal breakfall/rolling practice. One should practice the latter, but not at the expense of being a good Uke in paired exercises.
As for falling from imperfect techniques, this would happen anyhow, during technique practice (if Uke fell from a technique, it does not make t perfect), during Randori practice and during dedicated practice for falling (we train this separately when we feel the need).


Amir
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Old 04-24-2006, 07:57 AM   #48
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didn't fall

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
This is totally true all the time no matter how long you have practiced Aikido.
If you were not told by your sensei to instruct or not ask by your nage or uke for help, then your job as nage is to practice your technique and as uke is to practice your fall or roll. Your sensei is responsible for determination if a technique is right or not and is the one to correct mistakes.
I would have to disagree with you on this David. At some point during your training, you need to learn to adapt to an uncooperative uke. The first technique you try in a real situation may not work and you have to develop the creativity to blend into something else. When 2 higher ranking students practice together, they need to be looking for holes in the technique and ways to get out of it. They shouldn't be a total jerk about it, but rather test the boundries. This helps nage refine their technique and to learn how to change the technique when certain breakdowns occur.

Nathan Snow
Michigan
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Old 04-24-2006, 07:07 PM   #49
Upyu
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
This is a very common and often recommended way of dealing with an uke who makes it difficult to perform a certain technique. Most commonly are people who resist kokyonage and just will not be led forward - they can easily be led backwards instead. If you are making another technique easy to perform, you are not resisting in a good way. This is something that takes quite a while to learn, though. Resisting in good ways is difficult.
To get the most out of training, it might be worth it to look into not taking the "easy" way out and changing the vector to effect the technique. Rather if its difficult to perform the technique because they're clamping down, try and feel why its hard to effect the technique in that direction. There's a common principal of power generation that allows you to effect a technique regardless of what direction the vector of force is coming in
If you want to effectively make that "principal" your own, then I think that entails that you practice in the direction that makes it the "least" easy to effect the technique

And if one of your partner whines and moans about it, well his loss really
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Old 04-25-2006, 01:29 AM   #50
dps
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Re: Instructor got mad because I didnt fall

Quote:
Andy Orwig wrote:
All,
I am currenly Orange Belt level. When I attacked a senior black belt:
Why does an orange belt practice with a black belt?
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