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Old 04-20-2006, 11:21 PM   #1
Lucy Smith
Dojo: Samurai Dojo
Location: Montevideo
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Sexual harrassment

I've been reading all previous polls and I noticed that the first ones didn't have a discussion. I found this one particularly interesting, especially because of the alarming amount of people who voted Yes. Well at least I think it is alarming.

Quote:
Have you ever experienced or witnessed sexual harrassment in aikido? - 6/17/2000
Yes 61 votes (15%)
No 309 votes (76%)
I don't do aikido 32 votes (7%)
402 total votes
Aren't we trying to prevent this sort of things from happening? I mean, a lot of women do Aikido after or during abusive relationships. So, if anyone has answered Yes, or would today, or if you just feel like telling your opinion, it'll be apreciated
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:50 PM   #2
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

This might not be quite what you were looking for, but the closest I've ever seen has been from guys who think they just shouldn't have to practice with women, calling it a waste of time. Thankfully I've never witnessed nor experienced genuine harassment, but the aforementioned is pretty godawful too.
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:37 AM   #3
Chris Li
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
I've been reading all previous polls and I noticed that the first ones didn't have a discussion. I found this one particularly interesting, especially because of the alarming amount of people who voted Yes. Well at least I think it is alarming.



Aren't we trying to prevent this sort of things from happening? I mean, a lot of women do Aikido after or during abusive relationships. So, if anyone has answered Yes, or would today, or if you just feel like telling your opinion, it'll be apreciated
Surveys vary quite a bit, but 15% is probably on the low end if you compare it to most surveys of workplace sexual harassment.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-21-2006, 03:47 AM   #4
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
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Re: Sexual harrassment

i have never witnessed sexual harrassment in the dojo, probably for two reasons

1) all the people i train with are a sound bunch of guys and girls
2) if anyone tried to be inappropriate with any of the girls i train with....the girls would kill them......several times (they scare me)

I feel that with a martial art such as aikido (i.e with the levels of physical closeness you need to have for things to work) you need to feel confident that the person who you are throwing your hips into (for a koshinage for example) isn't getting off on it.

Yeah occassionally when you are training you might touch/grab something you didn't mean to, but as long as that trust is there nothing will be thought of it.

So no touchy feely dammit!!!!!!

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:01 AM   #5
Nick P.
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

I think as long as you are an open dojo, and have chosen to accept all types of people, it stands to reason you will get a good cross-section of the general population; whites, blacks, browns, yellows, misc, christian, jew, muslim, budhist, short, tall, thin, fat, smart, stupid, smoker, non-smoker, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, omni sexual, metro sexual, liberal, conservative, marxist-lennonist, sexual predator, sexual deviant, pedophile, necrophiliac, murderer, extortionist, dangerous driver, drunk driver, driving without a license, etc etc

The only way I think you could exclude undesirable behaviour is to exclude those who bring it into the dojo. That would probably require a VERY explicit, and probably illegal in most parts of the world, interview and acceptance process.

See or experience anything inappropriate on the mat? I would tell that person to stop now AND ask them to leave AND tell the Sensei right away. My Sensei trusts me enough that if something that wrong happened he would back my actions.

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:01 AM   #6
Hanna B
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Sexual harrassment - let's start with defining the word... which I think is a major issue here.

Without anyone commenting the poll, is impossible to know what the people who voted "yes" refers to. I have seen (and been subjected to) gender discrimination, although most of the aikido places I have been to have been better than most other places in that respect. I have been a member in a dojo where it seemed perfectly OK to a man my daddys age to expect getting hugs from me without any other reason than him saying so - that is the closest I get. Had he been an important figure in the dojo I would have left at once (now I stayed too long anyhow) but sexual harrassment? Nah, I wouldn't say so.
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:34 AM   #7
Mark Freeman
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
I think as long as you are an open dojo, and have chosen to accept all types of people, it stands to reason you will get a good cross-section of the general population; whites, blacks, browns, yellows, misc, christian, jew, muslim, budhist, short, tall, thin, fat, smart, stupid, smoker, non-smoker, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, omni sexual, metro sexual, liberal, conservative, marxist-lennonist, sexual predator, sexual deviant, pedophile, necrophiliac, murderer, extortionist, dangerous driver, drunk driver, driving without a license, etc etc
.
Wow, you get a real cross section in Canadian dojos don't you, from Beatles loving Communists to omni sexuals ( what is one of those? ).
Me, I'll take them all in, apart from the 'misc's' you just cant trust someone that is beyond categorisation

regards
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:40 AM   #8
Nick P.
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Wow, you get a real cross section in Canadian dojos don't you, from Beatles loving Communists to omni sexuals ( what is one of those? ).
Me, I'll take them all in, apart from the 'misc's' you just cant trust someone that is beyond categorisation
LOL!
Actually, I was refering to my days in Atlanta.
And yeah, don't trust those miscs.

All joking aside, sexual harasement is no laughing matter. It, like all human traights, is something we all have to deal with in a dojo, just like in every other part of our lives.

No-one more than I wishes that the dojo was a place where only good people with good motives and deeds and words congregated, but alas....

Last edited by Nick P. : 04-21-2006 at 09:44 AM.

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:42 AM   #9
Koren Ko
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
I think as long as you are an open dojo, and have chosen to accept all types of people, it stands to reason you will get a good cross-section of the general population; whites, blacks, browns, yellows, misc, christian, jew, muslim, budhist, short, tall, thin, fat, smart, stupid, smoker, non-smoker, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, omni sexual, metro sexual, liberal, conservative, marxist-lennonist, sexual predator, sexual deviant, pedophile, necrophiliac, murderer, extortionist, dangerous driver, drunk driver, driving without a license, etc etc

The only way I think you could exclude undesirable behaviour is to exclude those who bring it into the dojo. That would probably require a VERY explicit, and probably illegal in most parts of the world, interview and acceptance process.

See or experience anything inappropriate on the mat? I would tell that person to stop now AND ask them to leave AND tell the Sensei right away. My Sensei trusts me enough that if something that wrong happened he would back my actions.
I never saw any inappropriate action as in sexual harassment in my place, yet. Probably because most of them are young children and 90% boys.

However, if in a confined/finite of mat area, with a larger group of trainees in it. Unintentional, accidental body contact at the wrong place and wrong time will happen... You tell me, how to get through of this kind of situation? (Such as an opposite sex trainer fall on some opposite sex trainer, although softly, in stomach, hand/leg kick at someone hand/leg/back/head/front or sensitive areas...)

I kinda scared the hell out when my neighbour almost has her lower back dropped on my head when my partner was doing suwari-waza to me... To block the fall? To take the hit? sigh...

Anyway, on the issue here.
I think the general mentality and characteristic plays a part here. Like Nick said here, no sensei want to get a trouble maker in his/her dojo. Also, most martial art trainer will never allow to be taken advantage at.
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:54 AM   #10
giriasis
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Re: Sexual harrassment

I have experienced it -- during kokyuho my partner allowed his hands to "accidently slip" and then he literally squeezed my breasts. Of course, he promptly had a fist in his face -- mine. Sensei was told and the next time I saw the jerk in class he didn't look very happy. And I never saw him after that. It's rare, but I'm in a large dojo living in a city where you do get all kinds of people so your bound to bring in some jerks. Fortunately, I had a sensei who believed me when I said it happened.

Also, sensei didn't see it happen because this jerk was pretty sneaky about how he did it. So just because you don't see it doesn't mean it might not have happened. Please trust your students.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:56 AM   #11
Richard Langridge
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Hehe, Steve's sig is a little worrying!
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:21 AM   #12
Amelia Smith
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

There are a couple of distinct elements to sexual harrasment. One is discrimination against a person because of his/her biological sex or gender. The other is inappropriate, unwelcome sexual advances, attention, etc. I've definitely heard a few inappropriate comments, but most of those were not all that serious, and the person responsible was told in no uncertain terms that it was inappropriate and/or rude. The biggest problem I've had was with predatory leering, especially when I was newer to aikido. Those who have experienced predatory leering know that it's totally different from casual looking or flirtation! It's very objectifying, and actually feels quite hostile. I think that as my aikido has improved, most of the predatory types haven't been able to objectify me quite so safely (they know that there might be a nikkyo in their future ) and of course I'm getting older too. Eventually, I'll be downright hag-like!

There is definitely some mutually consenting flirtation which takes place in aikido, from time to time, and as far as I'm concerned that has nothing to do with sexual harrasment, except that it makes the atmosphere less focused on training, and if there's a lot of it, people can start to get the impression that it's ok to flirt with anyone at any time on the mat, which is not good at all.

As for Steve's sig line, that's definitely not harrasment!

Last edited by Amelia Smith : 04-21-2006 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:45 AM   #13
merlynn
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
i have never witnessed sexual harrassment in the dojo, probably for two reasons

1) all the people i train with are a sound bunch of guys and girls
2) if anyone tried to be inappropriate with any of the girls i train with....the girls would kill them......several times (they scare me)

I feel that with a martial art such as aikido (i.e with the levels of physical closeness you need to have for things to work) you need to feel confident that the person who you are throwing your hips into (for a koshinage for example) isn't getting off on it.

Yeah occassionally when you are training you might touch/grab something you didn't mean to, but as long as that trust is there nothing will be thought of it.

So no touchy feely dammit!!!!!!
but lets not forget sexual harrasment works both waysit not just women who get it men do too

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 04-21-2006, 06:36 PM   #14
Don_Modesto
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Hanna!

Long time, no see. I've missed your posts.

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Sexual harrassment - let's start with defining the word... which I think is a major issue here.
I was thinking the same thing. And, as often happens when you've been to a thread first, you spoke my thoughts.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:19 PM   #15
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

I haven't seen it happen but I know of a lot of guys who are nervous about training with women, because of it. My friend's regular sensei frequently teaches kotegaeshi by tenkan-ing and ending up "posterior-to-posterior" during the technique. Sensei is short and my friend is pretty tall, so sometimes to make the point about the importance of position, sensei will reach down and slap uke's leg. my friend came to a seminar here in Japan and on autopilot, during kotegaeshi with a teen girl, slapped her "posterior." during the next break, he was EXTREMELY worried about it. thankfully, the trust was there and he didn't have 15 Japanese yudansha breathing down his neck.

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:02 PM   #16
Man of Aiki
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Re: Sexual harrassment

In a culture where feminists have been creating havoc for over 2 generations, any endeavor, no matter what it is, where men and women are bound to come into physical contact with each other is going to be ground rife with opportunity for someone with an axe to grind to push an agenda.

Having said that, yes sexual harrassment goes on at Aikido dojos. It is rare, many Senseis would not tolerate it if made aware of the fact that an incident has happened in their dojo, and we must be vigilant against people that try to turn every interaction meeting between men and women into a sexual power struggle.

If someone had told me 20 years ago colleges would institute rules dictating dating rules between men and women, down to specific questions that have to be asked by the male every step along the way, I would have laughed out loud.

As a matter of fact, there were several colleges with rules of that nature in the late 1990's.

The common leftist tactic of 'creating a crisis' (hate speech, date rape on campus, etc.) leads to stringent rules that revokes freedoms between rational adults (speech codes, posting of pics of every male on campus as a 'potential rapist', etc.) Every word a white student speaks to a black student that the black student doesn't like leads to charges that the motive of 'racism' led to the offending statement, which puts the white student at the mercy of the college's 'hate speech' laws. Any physical contact whatsoever between a male and a hypersensitive feminist is an act of 'sexual harrasment' motivated by 'hatred of women' and a desire to oppress them. Any luckless male who happens to accidently touch such a person in the hall ends up being denounced and then forced to sit through 'sensitivity seminars'.

I recently read a transcript of a debate between a military recruiter (an Iraqi War Veteran) and an 'anti-military recruiter' who fronts a group that tries to drive military recruiters off of college campuses.

During the course of the debate, the anti-military recruiter claimed that 90% of the women who served in the armed forces claimed to be the victims of sexual harrassment. He then blew the game by going on to claim that OVER ONE THIRD OF THE WOMEN IN THE MILITARY CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN RAPED.

It's over-reaching like this that often exposes the agenda on the part of these activists. Around 210,000 women are currently serving in the Navy, Air Force, Marines and the Army. One third of that is 70,000.

So basically, what this guy was claiming is that over 70,000 current female military personnel claim to have been raped.

Hmmmmm. Wonder by who? I guess we're supposed to infer.....BY THEIR FELLOW MALE SOLDIERS, OF COURSE.

So basically this guy was not only managing to claim that military service by females creates an entire class of victims, he's also claiming that the US Military is chock-full of rapists. The US military is overwhelmingly hostile to females and exploits them, and by floating this figure and then quickly moving on, he creates a perception that stays with the audience.

70,000 rapes, if that is true, when it's widely accepted that over half of rapes are never reported, would mean the actual number is far higher.

Why so many female members of the military then re-up when their first enlistment is up must therefore remain a mystery.

Activists like this run around creating perceptions of 'epidemics' of 'rape' and 'harrassment' and then are all ready to make everything better with a list of rules longer than my arm. (Which is quite long by the way). And by the time you figure out that their 'facts' were totally bogus and that they were all made up, they've already got the rules in place and you're stuck.

Sucker.

manofaiki
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:14 PM   #17
Nick P.
 
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Mr. Cates,

I agree that "we must be vigilant against people that try to turn every interaction meeting between men and women into a sexual power struggle."

However I am not quite sure who the "sucker" is at the end of your statement. Who exactly is the sucker?

Remember that pendulums have a nasty habit of swinging, and the feminists began creating their brand of havoc only after a really, really long period of men getting away with really, really awful behaviour....like not letting women vote, and our culture still not trusting the claims of the victims of sexual inpropriety.

Last edited by Nick P. : 04-21-2006 at 09:18 PM.

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:39 PM   #18
Man of Aiki
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Nick;

I in no way shape or form criticized genuine women's rights or the gains they have made.

I was criticizing strident feminism and the activists who have harmed the college experience the last 20 years or so for countless people, both male and female, with their ridiculous date rules, speech codes, hate speech laws, and so forth.

I can tell the difference between Susan B. Anthony and Betty Freidan.

Trust me on that.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:43 PM   #19
Dajo251
Dojo: Aikido Downtown
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Re: Sexual harrassment

I think it is key to be comfortable and trust the people you train with, I couldnt see any sexual harrasment happening with any of our regular member, the only way I could see it happening would be if a new comer or someone visiting did it. And even though Aikido is a very touchy thing, people know the difference between good touching and bad touching, at least I hope they do.

Dan Hulley
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:03 PM   #20
Lucy Smith
Dojo: Samurai Dojo
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
we must be vigilant against people that try to turn every interaction meeting between men and women into a sexual power struggle.
True. This is why trust between students is so important. I can tell the people I trust from the people I don't, but what if a person I trust does something clearly inapropiate? Those are the worst situations, because you feel like the world is falling apart. It hasn't happened to me in a Aikido class, which is great 'cause I like the Dojo being a place were the everyday world is left behind.

Quote:
If someone had told me 20 years ago colleges would institute rules dictating dating rules between men and women, down to specific questions that have to be asked by the male every step along the way, I would have laughed out loud.
Yeah maybe it was too much, but don't you prefer this to women being uncertain whether men were abusing them or not? Maybe you don't. Well, you're not a woman.

Quote:
Every word a white student speaks to a black student that the black student doesn't like leads to charges that the motive of 'racism' led to the offending statement, which puts the white student at the mercy of the college's 'hate speech' laws.
Again maybe too much, but we as caucasians have already made african-americans suffer enough, don't you think? And again I prefer a little bit fear, that will lead to a better treatment. At least as a short-term project.

Quote:
Any luckless male who happens to accidently touch such a person in the hall ends up being denounced and then forced to sit through 'sensitivity seminars'.
Which won't do you no harm, don't worry.

Quote:
During the course of the debate, the anti-military recruiter claimed that 90% of the women who served in the armed forces claimed to be the victims of sexual harrassment. He then blew the game by going on to claim that OVER ONE THIRD OF THE WOMEN IN THE MILITARY CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN RAPED.
Which I don't doubt at all. Or aren't you informed, that when soldiers were only male, female prisoners were raped, and dozens of prostitutes were hired and "used" by at least 20 soldiers each?

This is not strange, since those men were confined to be alone (with no women) for long periods of time. And if a woman is in the same room as theirs, well... good luck to her. They won't care if she's a soldier too, who is supposed to trust them. You may say "don't women feel lonely too?" Yea, but they won't lower themselves to meaningless sex with a punch of durty guys. So, they get raped.


Quote:
So basically, what this guy was claiming is that over 70,000 current female military personnel claim to have been raped.
What is it that you find strange about this?

Quote:
Hmmmmm. Wonder by who? I guess we're supposed to infer.....BY THEIR FELLOW MALE SOLDIERS, OF COURSE.
Of course. As I stated above. What, don't tell me you think soldiers are like gods or something. THEY ARE TRAINED TO KILL. To KILL human beings. Which means: MURDER. Which means: THE WORSE THING YOU CAN DO. So a little rape from time to time, what difference does it make?

Quote:
So basically this guy was not only managing to claim that military service by females creates an entire class of victims, he's also claiming that the US Military is chock-full of rapists.
After jale, the worst, yeah. Absolutely.

Quote:
70,000 rapes, if that is true, when it's widely accepted that over half of rapes are never reported, would mean the actual number is far higher.
Probably.

Quote:
Why so many female members of the military then re-up when their first enlistment is up must therefore remain a mystery.
Oh, no. I will clarify it right away. They are just trying to prove themselves and others, that those things will not put them off, probably sometimes thinking that male soldiers do what they do to try and make women leave the military. (Just for the record, I don't think female soldiers are very intelligent either. And to you all: please don't take this as an insult; I just don't think that an intelligent person would want to kill someone. Not at all Aiki).

So Brian, it looks like we differ in a lot of things. Just opinions, don't hate me.



Lucy
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:33 PM   #21
Man of Aiki
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Anybody who thinks that the American military is chock-full of rapists, and that over 70,000 currently serving female personnel have been raped.....

No I don't hate you, Lucy.

I just want you to start thinking for yourself, that's all.
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:59 PM   #22
Man of Aiki
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Re: Sexual harrassment

You seem to have an exceptionally low view of the American military, Lucy.

American boys killing German and Japanese soldiers 50 years ago wasn't murder. That was war.

You also can't seem to tell the difference between democracies that send soldiers to liberate people and tolitatarian states that murder millions of their own citizens.

Because Hitler hated Jews, and happened to have millions of them living under his control, he went about systematically killing them and any other group of people he decided his perfect Reich could live without, like Gypsys and homosexuals.

Would have been nice if all the Germans and Americans could have joined hands in 1941 and sat down and sang Kumbaya together but unfortunately that didn't work out.

Let me clue you in: I have friends in Iraq, and friends in the American Military.

The American military is not chock full of rapists. Over 1/3rd of serving American female military personnel have not been raped.

That was a statistic some anti-military recruiter pulled out of his ass.

Just so you know.
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:01 AM   #23
Lucy Smith
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Quote:
Brian Cates wrote:
You seem to have an exceptionally low view of the American military, Lucy.
We all hate the US military around the world, you see... no wait... you don't. How can you? Let me tell you something: at least here, we are always wondering when are you going to come for something... we don't have oil but we have plenty of water. Lots. And you are always attacking somewhere. But that's not the point. I hate all militarys. I hate all uruguayan soldiers as well. And yes they are rapists. Maybe they tell you they're heroes but they are no better than you and me, in fact they're much worse.

Quote:
American boys killing German and Japanese soldiers 50 years ago wasn't murder. That was war.
Yeah, well, being that my definition of war is murder... you get your conclusions. I see it as murder because that tiny little shadow you kill from 100 meters; that's a human being. War is a devastating secuence of murder. And sometimes it gets way more personal than killing someone from a long distance.

Quote:
You also can't seem to tell the difference between democracies that send soldiers to liberate people and tolitatarian states that murder millions of their own citizens.
Liberate people? Did you just wrote liberate people? All those people who are dying 'cause you want their oil are far from being liberated.

Quote:
Let me clue you in: I have friends in Iraq, and friends in the American Military.
So...? I bet Bush doesn't.

Quote:
The American military is not chock full of rapists. Over 1/3rd of serving American female military personnel have not been raped.
Right. Whatever. Aiki on this one... ich ni san...

Quote:
That was a statistic some anti-military recruiter pulled out of his ass.
An anti-military recruiter is a pacifist. Don't insult him.



Lucy

Last edited by Lucy Smith : 04-22-2006 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:20 AM   #24
Lucy Smith
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Re: Sexual harrassment

Brian: read Neil Mick's thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10054
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Old 04-22-2006, 02:02 AM   #25
Man of Aiki
Dojo: Aikido By The Bay
Location: Portland Texas
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
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Re: Sexual harrassment

You hate all soldiers everywhere, you think they are bad people, much worse, and they rape alot.

I'm beginning to realize I'm not going to get far having a rational discussion with you, so I'll drop it here.
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