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Old 05-24-2006, 04:43 PM   #26
billybob
 
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
Do you have any suggestions on how to prevent knee injuries, how to protect them, and how to heal them without taking any time off from training?
Let them bend.

"The knee joint will never fail by itself" - my physical theapist. Our knee joint is massive and strong. It is rugged enough to support a full grown cow. Look for knee trouble in your lower back and find tension in your lower abdomen and groin. He mentioned that many female athletes have a 'cultural' tension in their abdomens that causes ACL problems especially for them - he hadn't worked out the details.

If you are training on a crowded mat - be flexible. If someone falls on you, fall also. Force is the enemy of healthy joints. Good smooth gentle training is the best cure.

I yelled at some of the 'weight training is THE cure all for joint injuries' crowd and let myself get shouted down. If you are in pain. ease up.

Knees are strong. Let them bend

dave
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Old 05-24-2006, 06:13 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
He mentioned that many female athletes have a 'cultural' tension in their abdomens that causes ACL problems especially for them - he hadn't worked out the details.
hmmm
maybe because the research shows the problem is elsewhere (and what the heck is a cultural tension???) specifically gender difference in use of quads and hamstrings. extensive studies have been done on college basketballers, becuase there was literally an epidemic of acl ruptures in women players WAY out of proportion to men players.
it was discovered that 3 main theories (estrogen levels, pelvic wideness in women, which DOES make us more prone to collapse knees inward, and different angles within the knee structure btwn men and women) were of minor importance compared to biomechanics: women tend to use quads for jumping and men tend to use hamstrings.
bear in mind hamstrings are quite wonderful in being both extensors and flexors depending on whether you look at the hip or the knee. so there are certain gross movements that can be done relying more on them or more on quads. and jumping with quads is way less knee-friendly (engaged quads tighten knee--feel how they immobilize kneecap, which is a GOOD thing--and that includes making the acl taut). when women basketballers are given plyometrics that include re-education on jumping, their acl damage rates go way down. i've also spoken w/ a coach for womens volleyball team who has incorporated this kind of regimen for his team and seen huge improvements in safety.
i used this info for some self-reeducation during gmy last bout or knee rehab and found that yes, i was able to experiment w/ feeling quads use vs feeling hamstrings use--quite interesting.
so there is such a thing as "jumpink like a girl" and it ain't good -- dunno bout the "throw like a girl" thing though :-)

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:35 AM   #28
billybob
 
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Janet,

I perceive superior training to my own from you so I'll answer in lay terms. By 'cultural tension' he was referring to how different peoples inhabit their bodies differently. He says Americans 'drive' their bodies as though they were automobiles, etc. Some men expresss 'chestiness' or 'upper bodiness',
some people express collapse, or hunch over as though they were about to be clubbed on the head. He observed that we 'dress up' our bodies, in the mirror, rather than letting them be the gravitic walking engines they are meant to be. He showed me pictures of myself from the rear to prove this point. Women, he said, accentuate their sexually attractive features (maybe that is what men are doing above).

Have you noticed that people in business attire walk differently than people dressed for outdoor work?
Drunks move differently etc. I think what I'm saying actually supports what you said, and what the relevant research found.

I'm glad the reeducation is helping. I'm also hoping to lose my self imposed moniker 'Gimpy Dave'

dave
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Old 05-26-2006, 11:24 AM   #29
Janet Rosen
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

thanks for clarification, dave; yes, overall makes sense in terms of larger culture/gender issues as they relate to somatics/body movement.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:56 PM   #30
mriehle
 
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
Brad Medling wrote:
It would be a rare thing for your posterior cruciate ligament to snap because if it did, your femur would slide right off of your tibia toward the front detaching your patella.
Really? I guess I'm a pretty luck guy. Actually, now that I think about it I guess I know why.

Both my knees are pretty much trashed.

I have a repaired tibial plateau fracture in my right knee and a repaired PCL in my left knee. I remember it was the PCL as opposed to the ACL because my orthopedic surgeon was actually quite surprised.

But my patella is right where it belongs, thank you. I suspect this is because I didn't really get to put any weight on it. I wasn't allowed to move around much after the repair surgery for my right knee.

I remember one of the diagnostic procedures was a bit, um, creepy. I'm pretty sure a knee is not supposed to move like that.

Quote:
Brad Medling wrote:
Besides, your ACL is more flexible while being durable and your PCL is more firm and stiff. The word "cruciate" was coined because the ACL and PCL intersect in a "cross" type fashion.
Well, this explains some things. My knee is still a little unstable. Not badly, but I can feel when things get out of alignment and it's uncomfortable.

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Old 05-30-2006, 01:02 PM   #31
musashipug
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

I'd suggest you get a referral to a local Orthopedic certified Physical Therapist who also is an Aikidoka. Most orthopedic Dr.'s and P.T.'s don't know the specific demands we put our knees through in training.

Stay Safe,

Roger
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Old 05-31-2006, 07:17 AM   #32
Lyle Bogin
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Sometimes you just have to refuse to do certain things on the mat that hurt you.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:02 AM   #33
aikispike
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

All these smart answers... the only think i can think of is "less suwari waza"

Spike

Quote:
Roger Nicholls wrote:
I'd suggest you get a referral to a local Orthopedic certified Physical Therapist who also is an Aikidoka. Most orthopedic Dr.'s and P.T.'s don't know the specific demands we put our knees through in training.

Stay Safe,

Roger

--
Michael Kimeda
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:17 AM   #34
Amendes
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
Saw Y. C. Naw wrote: View Post
Some people tend to hit their knees on the mat when doing backward rolls, and if that is not corrected over time, it could become a problem for the knees.

Other than that, maybe more calcium and vitamin D? Excess calcium does not improve bone strength without sufficient vitamin D, as this article suggests.
LOL I was doing backrolls last night, and I relly must admit my left knee is very sore right now. Also my left knee is a very bad knee to begin with. I know it is from impacting on my back roll for 100% sure this time, as I felt it when I was doing it.

So now I need to adjust so that I do not land on that back knee.

The other thing that has been taking my left knee by surprise is the pivoting involed on it when doing any kneeling techniques or knew walking.

I am now at the point where I do not knee walk anymore. However I am visiting another school in a week and I hear it is very traditional, and I relly do not want to be rude by not knee walking or sitting in Seiza.

Anyway I believe I have a cartilage tear from a sports injury in the past and it will never get better, and I will never quit doing what I love to do, so basically I have to live with the pain and adjust.

I'd say it's wroth it.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:52 AM   #35
Robert Rumpf
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
Andrew Mendes wrote: View Post
LOL I was doing backrolls last night, and I relly must admit my left knee is very sore right now. Also my left knee is a very bad knee to begin with. I know it is from impacting on my back roll for 100% sure this time, as I felt it when I was doing it.
When I do back rolls in the best way that I've learned how, my knees don't touch the ground. Perhaps you should reconsider how you roll.

This video is a good random example that I found online:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iehmiFpfVVg

If you look at the 0:38 second mark, you'll see what I mean. It happens really fast - the support structure allows for the first connection beyond the shoulder to be the balls of the toes instead of the knee.

Of course, it takes a considerable amount of effort and focus to do backrolls in this way consistently, and so I typically cop out and plant my knee when I am actually forced to take backrolls, even though I know this to be incorrect. I see this copping out with many people (senior and junior), and it makes a lot of practical sense to plant the knee when you're on a mat since it takes less energy and focus, and the mat cushions the knee.

At the first place I trained, we had the option of rolls on hardwood floors, so the potential pain of planting became more obvious. Because of this, the point was made explicitly clear there, as it has been at seminars, etc. Still, it is hard to get yourself to act to an ideal when the sub-par suffices.

In general, I try to avoid backrolls and instead do backfalls, since I'm lazy and space tends to be at a premium. The alternatives are to become better disciplined (working on it), better conditioned (should work on it), and/or to choke on the roll and do a plant. If I can't get myself to do it correctly, I'm probably better off not reinforcing a bad habit.

Rob
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:45 AM   #36
DonMagee
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

I'm a big believer in proper strength training and stretching. Most people tend to not keep their body's in shape, thus they tend to get more knee and back injurys.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #37
Brion Toss
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'm a big believer in proper strength training and stretching. Most people tend to not keep their body's in shape, thus they tend to get more knee and back injurys.
Yup. And stretching too hard at the beginning of class,when the muscles are cold, and not enough at the end, when the muscles are warm. And doing exercises that, done correctly, strengthen the knees (like squats), and avoiding exercises that put too much shear on them (like leg extension machine lifts).
I have a former knee, due for replacement, on starboard side, and a similarly former ankle, also about ready for replacement, on port. So I limp symmetrically; it kind of looks like a normal walk. But the proper training and stretching that Dan is talking about has played a huge part in extending my Aikido career. Oh, and Zebra mats on a sprung floor!

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:54 AM   #38
robert weatherall
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

My only advice. Never carry anyone on your back while running.
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Old 03-06-2007, 03:07 AM   #39
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

I heartily agree with Mr. Knowlton in post #26. The problem is most likely elsewhere, where he points out one ought to look. Sadly, without the sensitivity, capacity to investigate this, and the knowledge of what to do about it, the cure is not forthcoming. Here is advice I received from my ballet teacher last night. I got a slight twinge in the tendon/muscle just above the patella while bending the knee. I thought it was owing to the fact that I probably did not concentrate enough on keeping the buttocks together so that the upper leg is connected well to the base of the spine and not drifting away outwards (and rotating inwards from the front). He said not to concentrate so much on squeezing the buttocks together, but much much more on pulling up in/under the chest (this connects front and back of body so that spine takes "down" force through legs into ground, while front of body controls the springiness of this spinal connection).
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:32 AM   #40
Amendes
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Apparently there is something out there called
Prolotheraphy. (I think thats how its spelled.)

It is apparently does wonders for knees that are doing symptoms like mine, and thosse that alot of Martial Artists seem to be getting.

I want to know if someone else has tried this before I shell out the kind of money it costs, because I don't want to pay for snake oil.

I also do Taekwondo as well as Aikido and I relly don't want to stop competing in Taekwondo but this knee thing has relly been making me start to think I am too old or something.
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:23 AM   #41
Don
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

I think, in order of importance, and considering a long aikido career:

1. Be in shape, which includes not being too overweight, flexibility and strength training

2. Be lucky

3. Have good genes for your knees

3. Be young (statistically speaking I at 51 having practiced aikido for 14 years am more likely to incure a knee injury even if I have 1, 2, and 3 than a young person who has 1,2, and 3 - more exposure hours if nothing else. On the other hand I am probably smarter now than when I was younger....)
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Old 03-17-2007, 03:45 PM   #42
Walter Martindale
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
Brion Toss wrote: View Post
Yup. And stretching too hard at the beginning of class,when the muscles are cold, and not enough at the end, when the muscles are warm. And doing exercises that, done correctly, strengthen the knees (like squats), and avoiding exercises that put too much shear on them (like leg extension machine lifts).
I have a former knee, due for replacement, on starboard side, and a similarly former ankle, also about ready for replacement, on port. So I limp symmetrically; it kind of looks like a normal walk. But the proper training and stretching that Dan is talking about has played a huge part in extending my Aikido career. Oh, and Zebra mats on a sprung floor!
What we're learning in the coaching world is that warm-ups should involve movement and loosening, with stretching being a separate session aimed at flexibility, after warm-up. A flexibility session should be separated from a "training" session by more than an hour to let the nervous system recover from the stretching. Apparently static stretching aimed at increasing range of motion prior to a training session turns off many reflexes that the body/muscles/nervous system (all part of the whole being) uses to protect itself and to "be athletic".
Sorry, I can't cite the journals, but at coaching conferences and seminars, that's the current thought.
W
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:10 AM   #43
Matthew White
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

best advice I can think of is find a dojo that has few knee injuries due to training, and train there... I know that should be obvious but some of the injury statistics I've seen for aikido would suggest otherwise.
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Old 04-15-2007, 06:21 PM   #44
Carlos Rivera
 
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Re: How do you prevent knee injuries?

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote: View Post
Let them bend.

"The knee joint will never fail by itself" - my physical theapist. Our knee joint is massive and strong. It is rugged enough to support a full grown cow. Look for knee trouble in your lower back and find tension in your lower abdomen and groin.

If you are in pain. ease up.

Knees are strong. Let them bend

dave
Good advice Dave, I just went through arthroscopic surgery for my rt. knee; torn meniscus, pinched ligaments, and a bit of chicken jambalaya that got jammed in there.

From my recent experience, you have to let them bend, go light for the first few weeks and analyze how your knees should bend. Just don't put any excessive weight on them while recuperating.

As far as how to avoid a knee injury, you should learn the techniques well (especially koshinage) so you don't actually bear a person's full weight, but only a temporary bearing of weight. In addition, listen to your best training partner- your body.

Sometimes we feel a twitch or pull and tend to ignore it; that was my mistake. If it's a twisted knee, rest, ice, compress and elevate.

Here's a good article from WebMD:
http://firstaid.webmd.com/knee_pain_...t_firstaid.htm

Knee Pain Overview Treatment

Self-Care at Home

In treating many types of knee pain, a common goal is to break the inflammatory cycle. The inflammatory cycle starts with an injury. After an injury, substances that cause inflammation invade the knee, which causes further injury, which leads to further inflammation, and so on. This cycle of inflammation leads to continued or progressive knee pain. The cycle can be broken by controlling the substances that cause inflammation, and by limiting further injury to tissue.
Some common home care techniques that control inflammation and help to break the inflammatory cycle are protection, rest, ice, compression, and elevation. This regimen is summarized by the memory device PRICE.

PROTECT the knee from further trauma.

This can be done with knee padding.

A pad over the kneecap, for example, helps to control the symptoms of some knee injuries (an example is a form of bursitis sometimes called housemaid's knee) by preventing further repetitive injury to the prepatellar bursae.

REST the knee.

Rest reduces the repetitive strain placed on the knee by activity.

Rest both gives the knee time to heal and helps to prevent further injury.

ICE the knee.

Icing the knee reduces swelling and can be used for both acute and chronic knee injuries.

Most authorities recommend icing the knee 2-3 times a day for 20-30 minutes each time.

Use an ice bag or a bag of frozen vegetables placed on the knee.

COMPRESS the knee with a knee brace or wrap.

Compression helps accomplish 2 goals:

First, compression is another way to reduce swelling.

Second, in some knee injuries, compression can be used to keep the patella aligned and to keep joint mechanics intact.

ELEVATE the knee.

Elevation also helps reduce swelling.

Elevation works with gravity to help fluid that would otherwise accumulate in the knee flow back to the central circulation.

Prop your leg up when you are sitting, or use a recliner, which naturally elevates the legs.

Over-the-counter pain control medications: Commonly used pain relievers such as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as naproxen (Aleve or Naprosyn) and ibuprofen (Advil or Motrin) also play a role in the treatment of knee pain.

These drugs directly control pain and, at higher doses, act as anti-inflammatory agents, helping to break the inflammatory cycle. Like all medications, however, these drugs have side effects.

You should not use NSAIDs if you have a problem with bleeding or stomach ulcers or some types of kidney disease.

Acetaminophen (Tylenol) can also be used to control knee pain but does not have the anti-inflammatory properties of the NSAIDs. Still, this treatment is remarkably useful in many types of knee pain such as osteoarthritis.

When to Call the Doctor

When you are deciding whether to call the doctor, a good rule of thumb exists for most long-term knee injuries. If your symptoms have not gone away after trying 3-7 days of PRICE therapy and over-the-counter anti-inflammatory pain medications, you should set up an appointment with your doctor or a sports medicine or orthopedic (bone and muscle) specialist to further evaluate the pain. This rule can also be applied to new knee injuries that are not disabling. Remember, however, that this rule should only serve as a guide. If you are concerned about the pain, you should call the doctor.

When to Go to the Hospital

If you cannot walk on your knee, you should immediately go to the hospital's emergency department to be evaluated by a doctor because of the possibility of a fracture.

Many fractures may require immobilization in a specific position or surgery.

Putting off seeing a doctor may hinder healing.

Other signs and symptoms that demand emergency evaluation:

Fever (which may indicate infection)

Unbearable pain

Drainage

Large wounds

Puncture wounds

Swelling, if you are on a blood thinner (warfarin or Coumadin) or have a bleeding disorder (such as hemophilia)
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