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Old 04-28-2006, 11:51 AM   #101
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Yes you are correct Dirk. We should split this discussion off on another thread!
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:35 PM   #102
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Richard Langridge wrote:
Hehe, carefull Rocky, or you'll have a ton of BJJ fanatics telling you how that wouldn't work in the street!
Down here I go commando, so it probably would work.

Rock
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:55 PM   #103
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Oh, I forgot. I also usually wear shorts.

Rock
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Old 05-01-2006, 07:31 PM   #104
Neil Mick
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

And speaking of etiquette...just what is it, that brings you to respond only to posts not even addressed directly to you, anyway?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I am completely uninterested in the advertizing. And yes, before you spout off with more of your negative commentary and baiting. I am that confident.
Fine. Whatever.

But...just FYI

Curiousity does not = advertising, or even an overt interest in whatever it is, you do. I would be more interested in Ron's feedback, than anything else.

But since you wouldn't appreciate having Ron spill all of your "secrets:" I have no problem with this, altho I find it puzzling that you yourself enjoy waxing prolific on your own techniques.

What you think Ron will give away, is anyone's guess; since you find no value in a weekend seminar. What "secrets" do you think a few posts would reveal??

Oh never mind...I really am uninterested in your response.

Quote:
I claim no expertise.
Ah, but you do...and you have: both here, and elsewhere.

Quote:
But to the best I am able to control it -the skills that I do know and practice-you will never learn from me, nor anyone affilliated with me.
Dan
Oh, lawd, no, no!!!

And the same for you, Dan. The skills that I do know and practice--you will never learn from me, either...not with that attitude.

But, should you ever get off that mighty high-horse, the dojo where I train is always open to people who show respect; and you are always welcome to come train on our mat. And yes: I DO insist on it being "friendly."

Last edited by Neil Mick : 05-01-2006 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 05-01-2006, 10:08 PM   #105
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I claim no expertise. But to the best I am able to control it -the skills that I do know and practice-you will never learn from me, nor anyone affilliated with me.
Dan
I'd be happy to show anyone how to do a sankakujime combined with a wet fart any time. The secret is in my special diet that gives me great "internal" power and a special set of exercises that allows excellent sphincter control.

Rock
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:22 AM   #106
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Rocky, that gave me a good laugh. I've actually experienced that exact waza on quite a few occasions and have even delivered it a few times myself. Thanks for the memories!

Take care and best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 05-02-2006, 08:25 AM   #107
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Yo Chuck,

We must be affiliated in some way.

Rock
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:38 PM   #108
mriehle
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

You know, it occurs to me...

...most of the comments here deal with an experienced martial artist walking in and declaring a challenge. IME, it just doesn't happen. Most experienced practitioners can't be bothered. It all goes back to something I said in a class years ago. I was teaching some kids where some of them thought of themselves as tough guys when they asked the inevitable question, "If and aikidoist and a boxer were to fight, who would win." I answered with my firm belief that it would be the one who was better at his art (what I didn't add was that it would be the boxer because an aikidoist who actually got into this fight clearly wasn't a very good aikidoist, but that's one of those esoteric points that doesn't change the essential point in any case).

For most of us who've been at this for a while, proving the worth of our particular art by ourselves seems silly. I know there are people practicing other arts who can beat me. I know there are people I can beat. So what does this actually prove? It proves the ones who can beat me are better at their art than I am at mine and the ones I can beat are not as good at their art as I am at mine. It proves nothing about the relative worth of the art.

So, most of the challenges I've witnessed - with one spectacularly notable exception - have involved people with no real training. Twice in the last five years I've seen someone walk into a dojo where I train with the clear intention of starting a fight with one of the black belts. Both times it ended with them leaving without ever having actually gotten around to making their challenge.

Which is how it should be, IMO.

The one time was actually personally amusing because I personally defused it with what I can only describe as a Stupid Ki Trick that still amazes me that it works. Even though I've done it three times and it's worked all three times, it just seems like it's too easy and shouldn't work.

These people were not interested in learning anything. They were just trying to prove how tough they were. Both times they came with an entourage; people who were clearly pushing them into doing something stupid.

So, from my point of view, even letting them make their challenge would be a mistake. Actually accepting the challenge would be just stupid.

Now, I have had people join classes with a clearly ulterior motive. Their plan was for them to make a challenge during the class at some point. They sometimes have claimed some prior training. In all but one of those cases I think I can state with some confidence that such claims were overstated considerably.

And it's true that the classes with those "tough guy" kids sometimes got interrupted with challenges which I had no choice but to accept, but even there the challenge was dismissed pretty quickly. They had no real training and knew it. On some level, I think they wanted to be assured that their teacher was actually teaching them something worthwhile.

But I think for the most part the reality - at least these days - is the kid being pushed by his friends to do something stupid and dangerous. Why help his friends embarass him?

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Old 05-02-2006, 01:36 PM   #109
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

There is this retired Army Range buddy of mine who teaches Aikido (he is so old he went in before you had to be airborne to be a ranger) and some fellow challenges him and as he came forward my buddy hacked up a big Goober with all the sound effects. The fellow couldn't back away fast enough. Nice going Rick!

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 05-02-2006, 01:37 PM   #110
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Rangers lead the way! Hooah!
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Old 05-02-2006, 11:30 PM   #111
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

I've been gone for a while... been moving to a new place and my life is in boxes. I come back to find that Rocky and Chuck have been devulging age old secrets of combat on the web. I'm shocked I must say! That technique should never be revealed or even discussed unless the proper breath control counter is taught at the same time... quite irresponsible. At least Rocky didn't spill the beans about his secret diet, oops, I shouldn't have said that... forget I mentioned that last part.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:42 AM   #112
batemanb
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I've been gone for a while... been moving to a new place and my life is in boxes. I come back to find that Rocky and Chuck have been devulging age old secrets of combat on the web. I'm shocked I must say! That technique should never be revealed or even discussed unless the proper breath control counter is taught at the same time... quite irresponsible. At least Rocky didn't spill the beans about his secret diet, oops, I shouldn't have said that... forget I mentioned that last part.
Hey George, at least you don't need to spill the beans, you can just go visit "the man". I know, I was using that technique everytime I got up off your mat after I met him

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:41 AM   #113
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
I wondered if someone would ask.

It's so simple, so obvious. Yet, if done sincerely I've never seen it not work. I learned it from Denis Burke of Andover Aikido.

Basically, someone is getting in your face, being confrontational. Turn in and stand next to him in a spirit of comradery and cooperation. You are now facing the same direction as he is. The trick is to completely commit to being "on his side". Now you can come to a reasonable understanding of how the situation should go.

I'm not sure that description is really adequate, but I think it's as close as you'll get in this kind of a discussion.

Like I said, even though I've done it on three separate occasions, it still amazes me how well it works. I'm sure there's someone out there it won't work with, but I've yet to run into that person. Moreover, the position you put yourself in requires a special effort on their part to pursue an attack at that point. Bonus!

I think, as well, that if you are "faking it", it will fail. Just turning in for the more advantageous(?) physical position will result in escalation rather than resolution, I suspect.
Thanks for the explanation Michael, I am fully aware of what you describe.
I know Denis Burke, he was with my teacher for many years before moving on. My first contact with him was when we were both students on one or our federations courses for teachers. We both had some common ground in that we were both using aikido principles in the arena of corporate training. Simple exercises that transfer very well into the classroom and provide plenty of chance for discussion and learning without ever getting into the 'martial' aspect. Real life skills... which I guess is what you are describing in your post.
My teacher's focus is on aikido 'for daily life' which we have alot more of than anything else

I agree with your comment about faking it...... like those who say "I understand what you are saying 'But' "
Sincerity here means actually stepping into the others position and accepting where they are coming from.... I understand what you are saying 'and..."

Cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-03-2006, 12:24 PM   #114
mriehle
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I know Denis Burke, he was with my teacher for many years before moving on. My first contact with him was when we were both students on one or our federations courses for teachers.
He's good people. I met him a few years ago when he came and visited us in Stockton, CA. He brought along Robert Banks, who my daughter still talks about. They hit it off in a big way. Especially when she showed him something we call a "no retreat" kokyu nage. She's pretty good at it and there's a reason it's a favorite technique in our dojo.

He was impressed and she was okay with that.

'Course, she's fourteen now, was ten or eleven then, I think. Her perspective may have changed.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
My teacher's focus is on aikido 'for daily life' which we have alot more of than anything else
It's remarkable, isn't it, how infrequently we're called upon to beat the stuffing out of someone? Or to prevent someone from actually beating us up. And yet, Aikido often applies...

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I agree with your comment about faking it...... like those who say "I understand what you are saying 'But' "
Sincerity here means actually stepping into the others position and accepting where they are coming from.... I understand what you are saying 'and..."
I would have characterized it as "I'm on your side, really. I wonder, though, if you're taking the correct approach to the problem..". You want to defuse the situation and redirect their aggression. Byt definition, you're not in complete agreement with them. The idea is to not be in opposition, either. Tricky...

Still, these are all just words. The attitude is what really matters. Getting yourself down into that correct attitude is the key, IME, to all the Stupid Ki Tricks.

Last edited by mriehle : 05-03-2006 at 12:38 PM.

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Old 05-03-2006, 12:34 PM   #115
mriehle
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
There is this retired Army Range buddy of mine who teaches Aikido ... Nice going Rick!
I just made a connection in my head.

If I were to wander over to Concord of a Saturday morning, might I encounter this Rick fellow?

If so, I've met him. The goober story seems entirely in character.

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Old 05-03-2006, 12:54 PM   #116
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
He's good people. I met him a few years ago when he came and visited us in Stockton, CA. He brought along Robert Banks, who my daughter still talks about. They hit it off in a big way. Especially when she showed him something we call a "no retreat" kokyu nage. She's pretty good at it and there's a reason it's a favorite technique in our dojo.

He was impressed and she was okay with that.

'Course, she's fourteen now, was ten or eleven then, I think. Her perspective may have changed.
I remember practicing with Bob Banks in the early kyu days, always smiling is how I remember him

Quote:
I would have characterized it as "I'm on your side, really. I wonder, though, if you're taking the correct approach to the problem..". You want to defuse the situation and redirect their aggression. Byt definition, you're not in complete agreement with them. The idea is to not be in opposition, either. Tricky...
Agreed, my use of the term acceptance does not mean agreement, rather a 'seeing their world through their eyes' attitude.
Quote:
Still, these are all just words. The attitude is what really matters. Getting yourself down into that correct attitude is the key, IME, to all the Stupid Ki Tricks.
Also agreed, the right attitude allows creative solutions, the wrong attitude just makes things worse.

Cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-05-2006, 09:42 AM   #117
akiy
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

The discussion relating to the "Open Invitation to Dan Harden" has been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287

Folks, if I can please ask you to all take a minute of your time to split off threads when you want to go off to another topic, it sure would save me a lot of time cleaning things up. I would appreciate your cooperation in doing so. Thanks.

-- Jun

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Old 05-05-2006, 03:16 PM   #118
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
The discussion relating to the "Open Invitation to Dan Harden" has been moved here:

-- Jun
Thanks Jun,
the posts were interesting, but seem to stop any discussion about this topic.

Dirk
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:14 PM   #119
ksy
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Challenges are to be expected when you have a dojo. maybe you will get a couple of drunks, a middling martial art student, or an outright challenge. It is a challenge for you, there is no other way to talk about it. Your art should be your home, and you should be prepared to protect your home. If you do not protect your home, you have no home.
your art should be your art, and your home should be your home. besides, diff people have a diff defination of the word "protect". In the face of aggresion, some people would "protect" by kicking ass and some would "protect" by offering tea.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:15 PM   #120
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
your art should be your art, and your home should be your home. besides, diff people have a diff defination of the word "protect". In the face of aggresion, some people would "protect" by kicking ass and some would "protect" by offering tea.
Here in the UK we are more likely to offer tea (any excuse) probably with biscuits!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:40 PM   #121
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Here in the UK we are more likely to offer tea (any excuse) probably with biscuits!
It seems as if a pint of beer is also offered frequently.
[spoiler]Some put it in front of you and ask you to empty it (drink). some empty it straight over your face probably again a prejudice. [/spoiler]
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:45 PM   #122
DonMagee
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

I dont own a dojo to get challenged. But I had an event a few weeks ago where I was confronted by a angry guy (who actually wasn't angry at me, but at my friend). He wanted a fight, so I took out my wallet, pulled out a buisness card and handed it to him. I told him if he really wanted to fight to go to the school the next day at noon and sign up for the fights we have on the first weekend of every month. That way he could have his shot, and make some cash if he wins. I have yet to see the guy.

One thing I've noticed from reading this thread is a lot of people feel seem to feel threatened by people suggesting they test their 'martial' ablitiy. You should not feel threatened by people who suggest that your training will not protect you, or by people that want to spar with you. You should be confident in your training, and if you are not confident, seek out and test your ablities to the fullest extent safely possible. I have no doubt in my ablities, if someone said my techniques did not work, I would be ok with that. I wouldn't be upset because the proof is in the results I see when I spar. Its something to think about if you feel threatened, scared, mad, or doubtful when someone suggests you spar. That is of course if you are training to be able to defend yourself.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:16 AM   #123
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
It seems as if a pint of beer is also offered frequently.
True, but only aftre practice

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Old 06-03-2006, 09:00 AM   #124
Mato-san
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Last week we had a Judoka come to our dojo, he was testing or "challenging" the art with his evasive Judo stuff he had learnt elsewhere, the waza on the menu was shomenuchi nikyo. I was paired off with this guy for part of the session, on one ocassion he resisted the take down part of the waza simply by moving forward and around the momentum (I applied a sankyo), the next time he pulled his arm up behind his back and tried to roll out of it(I went to the front of him and planted the nikkyo right there behind his back) then next time after we went down he clenched his fist so the nikkyo was impossible for me, I looked up at sensei , sensei smiled and said give him to me, from there sensei put this guy through the mill. After the session this guy bowed to shomen, kissed the tatami and said I will be back for sure. So tommorrow will tell but I am sure we will see him. That is the kind of challenges I think are respectful and innovative.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 06-03-2006, 03:23 PM   #125
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

It is nice when that happens. I find it hard with someone that does not understand the methods we train in aikido to show them how to do it correctly. They honestly want to "play" but they come at aikido with their own perceptions. I am not good enough to be able to stay within the context of aikido and still play with them. In those cases it usually devolves into something else and gets "messy"...no learning takes place at that point!

On another note, I am finding I am getting a little better in this department though!
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