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Old 04-14-2006, 11:57 PM   #26
RebeccaM
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
( Dennis Good ;
"Tae Kwon Do guy does a spinning roundhouse. My instructor enters in behind him, grabs him at the collar and belt, spins and drives him face first into the mat. "
That sounds like an aborted iriminage, and from that attack it's no surprise uke lost his balance earlier than planned. I've done some experiments on willing friends with iriminage out of grabs and punches. Almost without fail, they ended up falling forwards as I brought them down and around. I never got anyone to follow the arc up and into the backfall.
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:30 AM   #27
MaryKaye
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Rebecca Montange wrote:
That sounds like an aborted iriminage, and from that attack it's no surprise uke lost his balance earlier than planned. I've done some experiments on willing friends with iriminage out of grabs and punches. Almost without fail, they ended up falling forwards as I brought them down and around. I never got anyone to follow the arc up and into the backfall.
My dojo doesn't do iriminage, and when I started to train at places that did, this was the inevitable result. I had to be taught to stay with the technique.

Mary Kaye
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:44 AM   #28
Amelia Smith
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

What Rebecca said, and Mary seconded.

All of those instances sound like varriations on standard techniques. The thumb into the first sounds like a nikkyo. The head throw, well, we do those in my dojo all the time. The "sacrifice throw" also sounds fairly normal to me. My guess is that they don't look like standard aikido sylabus techniqes because the challengers don't know how to take aikido ukemi. They're unlikely to bend as we would, or follow in the same way, so the end of the technique is going to look a little different (so as to spare the attacker's elbow/wrist/neck, etc.)

I'm sure someone out there is going to say that if you're doing the technique properly, the person will naturally go where you put them. Maybe, but there are a lot of varriables, particularly with somebody who has trained in another system.
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Old 04-17-2006, 08:04 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
particularly with somebody who has trained in another system.
Yeah, (if the waza works) they tend to go 'thunk'...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-17-2006, 08:37 AM   #30
Amelia Smith
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Or "splat"
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Old 04-17-2006, 09:20 AM   #31
Dennis Good
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
That sounds like an aborted iriminage
Actually it was more like a Tenkai Ikkyo but instead of using a limb for the takedown, he used the entire body.

Quote:
Of the stories above, when the Aikido instructor is challenged, the response has never been a typical Aikido syllabus technique
I believe the "Syllabus" or kata style techniques are like the vocabulary of aikido. It is how you put them together and use them at any given time that makes poetry or total garbage. Its not a Attack A: respond with Defense B: There are to many possible variations to account for. Off the top of my head I cant think of any Kata's that have techniques designed against kicks. That doesn't mean that there are not a ton of techniques that can't be adapted to this purpose. It is the skill of being able to adapt what you know to the situation that I believe is the most difficult thing to learn and to teach.
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Old 04-17-2006, 09:25 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Techniques designed against kicks? Well, I don't know if they are 'designed'...

Iriminage
sokumen iriminage (personal fav)
shomen tsuki / shomen ate
Ushiro nage

are ones I've used to good effect (mine, not uke's)

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-17-2006, 09:55 AM   #33
Dennis Good
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Exactly my point. Too many people get caught up in labels and just imitating what they've been taught instead of analyzing it, breaking it down, understanding HOW it works, and discovering how it can be applied to different situations. Imitation is definitely the first step but if your grasp of the technique ends there you will be missing out on so much. A lot of people believe if it falls outside the parameters of a kata or a traditional application it is no longer aikido which is just not true. As for kick defenses Ive always been partial to "foot"heneri into a take down my self.
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Old 04-17-2006, 12:23 PM   #34
MaryKaye
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Amelia Smith wrote:
I'm sure someone out there is going to say that if you're doing the technique properly, the person will naturally go where you put them. Maybe, but there are a lot of varriables, particularly with somebody who has trained in another system.
We did an hour's worth of jo-nage (uke tries to take the jo and nage throws him), including a lot of throws from the nidan instructor. For one throw, the two Ki Society-trained students took backfalls, and this looked like an obvious and natural result of the technique. The Aikikai-trained student took forward rolls, and this *also* looked like an obvious and natural result of the technique, though it startled the person throwing. This happened whether we were attempting to resist or to go with the technique--some difference of body position early on.

There may be a level of skill where uke always goes where you meant to put him, but it's awfully high.

Mary Kaye
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:38 PM   #35
Scott Josephus
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Just my two quick cents, my Sensei's Sensei was Shihan Fumio Toyoda. She studied under him for 13 years until his death a few years ago. One of the stories she relates is that when she was a White Belt, and had just started classes, someone walked during a class and demanded to know who the Sensei was. Toyoda Sensei stepped forward and acknowledged he was. The man told him flat out, "I want to Kick your #@$". Toyoda Sensei verified, "You wanna kicka my #@$". The man said "Yes". Toyoda Sensei said, "O.K., you can kicka my #@$, but we finish class first. To the class' astonishment, the man stood and waited. The bowed off the Mat and Toyoda Sensei asked, "You still wanna kick my #@$?". The man said "Yes," again. Toyoda Sensei said, "O.K., but we go outside first". He then held the door open for the challenger. The Challenger confidantly stepped outside, at which point Toyoda Sensei locked the door behind him, and laughed, stating, "He wanna kick my #@$!".

This, I think is the true spirit of Aikido - He resolved the conflict harmoniously without physically hurting the man, or humiliating him (and he could have - he was a Shihan . . .). Instead, he allowed everyone to safely be removed from the situation, with no one having to save face.

It sums up to me perfectly my favorite statement about Aikido: "We train hard in Aikido in hopes that we will never have to use it."

If you want the story in my Sensei's own words, It is in the Introduction of her book, Seeding Your Soul (which is a religous text, not an Aikido one).

Just something to chew on: Let's not forget that Aikido is about harmony, and not putting yourself or others in a dangerous situation if it can be avoided is part of the mindset of AIkido.
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Old 04-17-2006, 07:12 PM   #36
DH
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
This is not a criticism, just an observation, maybe even a compliment.
Of the stories above, when the Aikido instructor is challenged, the response has never been a typical Aikido syllabus technique.
Anyone got any real info as to why ??
I would guess that most folks-the vast majority perhaps- haven't a clue about what their Aikido has been trying to teach them in regards to body skills. At its root it can be practically unstoppable. If you knew what you were doing. A judoka throwing you should feel like he is trying to throw a statue. A jujutsu going for a double or single leg should be drilled into the ground. Your throws should not be throws that express anything but formless projections. Your strikes should be devastating with the ground and your center alive in your hands. I've not met the man who has fought me who has not been convinced otherwise. And I stopped training in Aikido long ago, before making Shodan. That being said, I would simply stand in front of anyone you care to pick in Aikido, of any rank, and I will do Aikido waza and I will not be thrown or locked.

As for challenges and whether it is advisable to accept or not?

What does it say to have turned them down?
What does it say to have enjoyed the challenge and never lost?
Is there a moral imperative to turn them down?
Does it speak to anyone as an act of "Taking the high road?" And is the acceptance then the obverse? Of a lower, base, or coarseness of character?
Then what of your ancestors and the forebears of these many arts... including those in Aikido.
What of Ueshiba's challenges and doubters?
And what of Tesshu?
Kunii Zenya?
Tohei?
Kano?
Takeda?
Mifune?
What of hundreds of others like them?
Are they lesser men?
Truly most, not many-MOSTLY ALL, of your predecessors took challenges and succeeded. It is one of the ways they learned. Perhaps one of the most worthwhile. And for most of us (not all) why we followed. In Martial arts it is the way of things. What is there to fear? Are we fighting men? Budo men? What? What is the harm in a physical questioning of voracity in a method?
For myself, I enjoyed the challenge and took no moral offense. I offered none in return and that with them being tuned and owned. Why on this earth would someone who is practicing a martial art think that way? But where I enjoyed the challenges and prevailed continually. In and of themselves, they were meaningless exercises except for self-fulfillment and experimentation. In fact it is not the winning or losing that matters. I am certain that few Shihan could withstand or even adequately cope with various people I know- including myself. Their certain failure would mean what? And to whom? Not a thing! It is just training. If you do not train to fight in, and against, an aggressive style you will not prevail. Period. To think otherwise is Hubris. But I caution you to review before you judge others or believe you are on a higher road..
To refuse is understandable. But to denigrate those who would ask or doubt speaks to me of character flaw of different kind. And not that of the challenger, but the challenged

If you do not train agressively, do not accept. It just isn't worth it and it can get annoying if you are trying to teach.But if you do, it can be fun and it can be a learning process for YOU and them.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-17-2006 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 04-18-2006, 08:16 AM   #37
roosvelt
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

I've heard enough of those glorified Aikido instructor stories. How about some less glamerous result stories?
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Old 04-18-2006, 08:35 AM   #38
Richard Langridge
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Dan, just out of curiosity, why did you stop training in Aikido?
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Old 04-18-2006, 10:05 AM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

who wants to admit they train with a sensei that sucks?
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Old 04-18-2006, 01:18 PM   #40
Michael Douglas
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Nice to hear someone standing up for actually accepting challenges, like the old-timers did.
If the challenger takes the time and effort to come to your dojo, surely that is enough to skew the perception of the encounter away from simply unprovoked harmful violence to a potentially useful, and potentially aikido-ish combat experience...
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:07 PM   #41
mriehle
 
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Thumbs up Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
Nice to hear someone standing up for actually accepting challenges, like the old-timers did.
If the challenger takes the time and effort to come to your dojo, surely that is enough to skew the perception of the encounter away from simply unprovoked harmful violence to a potentially useful, and potentially aikido-ish combat experience...
OR

It could be an opportunity for someone's ego to be stroked.

Whenever I see the words "combat experience" used in reference to Aikido, I cringe.

I've defended myself with Aikido. Yet, I cannot use my Aikido in a competitive situation. As soon as I enter a competitive mindset, my Aikido effectively evaporates. Self defense situations are not about competition, not an issue.

This challenger, though, that is a competition. By definition.

1) I know already that if I take this challenge someone will be hurt and if it's the challenger I can be sued and possibly brought up on criminal charges. How stupid do you think I am?

2) This challenge does nothing to promote good Aikido among my students. It might make me feel like a hotshot if I flatten the guy and don't hurt him, but it creates an unfriendly environment in the dojo overall.

3) This challenge isn't about whether what I'm teaching is effective self defense, it's about whether the challenger or I have the more extensive training and - pay attention - I don't care. I know that I can defend myself. I know that my students can defend themselves (and have done). I don't care about the UFC idiot who wants to come prove what a bad*%# he is.

I've had people come into the dojo who want to fight. I just encourage them to leave. We're just wasting each other's time.

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Old 04-18-2006, 06:52 PM   #42
Mike Fugate
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Ki Symbol Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Pretty kewl stories that I have read on here. As for my Sifu, he has been challenged..I dont know if he was in the school or not, but I know he was on the street. An individual came to his home with a gun and lets say he didnt do that or anything else again after.
His teacher, a Shaolin Grandmaster had a few challenges too...one time a very large guy walked into the school very loud and rude and damanded a challenge cuz, " This oriental stuff doesnt work"....Grandmaster Dee told him to come on in and he would get one free lesson. The guy walked onto the mat with his shoes on and once near Grandmaster he took a swing at him. Grandmaster Dee never lifted his hand from his sash..and beat the shit out him using only his shoulders. Took one mistake for the attacker and he left never to return.
Also a Karate 'master' froma rivaled school challenge him once at a tourny. He accepted and durring the begining of the match the 'master' went and kneeled as if he had hurt Grandmaster Dee so GM went and did the same thing, to kinda mock him. The guy then chraged in at him to hit him with his back turned, and with out ever looking, with his back turned fliped out a kick behind him and stoped him in his tracks, then finished him with strike..KO....those were the good days

"When you cease to strive to understand, then you will know without understanding." -- Caine
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Old 04-18-2006, 10:26 PM   #43
Takuan
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Thank you Scott for the story about Toyoda Sensei. Wonderful course of action, I think I'll try that if I'm ever challenged :-) Very interesting missive by Dan too, with a whole other outlook.

My Sensei told me not to accept challenges so I won't, and that's that. The old days of matial artists trying to defend their discipline are over. You could be dealing with a nut who has 3 or 4 friends waiting outside to come to his aid, or he may come back armed, who knows? Very risky to say "if I'm challenged I will accept because after all I practice a martial art", legally you could be in a lot of trouble here. You break the guys neck or something and later you're expalining to the police and a judge, "oh, so sorry but I was challenged". That won't stick. I expect more out of an aikidoka than accepting some lame challenge to prove himself. I truly believe we stand for something much greater than competing, even if we're provoked. And there is no way I could possibly compare myself with Ueshiba Sensei or Tohei Sensei!! Those are incredible masters! I'm just some lame Shodan barely scratching the surface of the aikido I hope to practice for many, many years.
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:28 AM   #44
roosvelt
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
O

Yet, I cannot use my Aikido in a competitive situation. As soon as I enter a competitive mindset, my Aikido effectively evaporates.
I went a language school to study "spanish" for a few years. Before I went to Spain, I asked my teacher what I should know. The teacher replied sheeply that I couldn't use what I'd learned in his school. I asked why. He said if I use the "spanish" I learned in his school, I can't communicate with the people in spain. Then I asked him what usage of the "spanish" that I learned in his school. He said that I can use it with other people from the same shcol or other school from the same "spanish language" organization.

Do you think that I've been studying "spanish" or some gurberish.
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:10 AM   #45
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Scott Josephus wrote:

This, I think is the true spirit of Aikido - He resolved the conflict harmoniously without physically hurting the man, or humiliating him (and he could have - he was a Shihan . . .). Instead, he allowed everyone to safely be removed from the situation, with no one having to save face.

It sums up to me perfectly my favorite statement about Aikido: "We train hard in Aikido in hopes that we will never have to use it."
Reminds me of something a guy I knew did (he's never done any martial arts at all btw), there was some issue as to who spilled a drink in the pub, the big guy said to my friend that he was gonna knock his block off etc etc. My friend said, ok then lets go outside or we'll get barred from the pub, the other guy agreed. Once out the door my friend just turned to the bouncer and said "He's trying to beat me up can you help?" The bouncer said no problem and let my friend back in and barred the other guy from the pub.
We all thought it was very funny.

Mike
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:32 AM   #46
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I've heard enough of those glorified Aikido instructor stories. How about some less glamerous result stories?
Got challenged in the dojo once. Failed miserably. Still working on that Rubik's Cube after 15 years. They kid did it in about a minute and a half.

Rock
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:36 AM   #47
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I've heard enough of those glorified Aikido instructor stories. How about some less glamerous result stories?
Another time a GJJ guy wanted to play with me so we had some fun until I grabbed him in a sankaku-jime with my legs and laid out a long and wet fart. He didn't want to play anymore. No fun. He said it wasn't fair.

Rock
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Old 04-19-2006, 10:00 AM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Rocky-san, you crack me up.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:07 PM   #49
mriehle
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
I went a language school to study "spanish" for a few years. Before I went to Spain, I asked my teacher what I should know. The teacher replied sheeply that I couldn't use what I'd learned in his school. I asked why. He said if I use the "spanish" I learned in his school, I can't communicate with the people in spain. Then I asked him what usage of the "spanish" that I learned in his school. He said that I can use it with other people from the same shcol or other school from the same "spanish language" organization.

Do you think that I've been studying "spanish" or some gurberish.
Not the same thing.

My point about a competitive situation is the idea that I have something to prove, rather than simply trying to resolve things and get on with my life. These are very different.

I've come to believe, in fact, that my Next Big Step in my training will be to treat a competitive situation exactly as I would a self defense situation. I'm not sure why I can't today, but it's clearly a personal glitch.

The Spanish thing you are talking about is a commonly known problem with the language. I have the same problem. The Spanish I learned is pretty much they way they speak in a certain region in the interior of Mexico. My wife's family, OTOH, speak a whole different dialect. I can understand a lot of what they say, but when (if!) I reply, they either don't understand me or look at me in that funny way that says, "Why would you say it like that?". Most of the time it's 'cause I'm too formal.

Regardless, even if I get past my personal glitch with the competition thing, I would not accept a challenge. If that idiot gets hurt as a result of such a challenge I would have to deal with all kinds of liability issues that I don't need.

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Old 04-19-2006, 02:01 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Good answer.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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