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Old 04-06-2006, 01:42 AM   #1
Perry Bell
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Ego's in martial arts

Hi All,

My name is Perry, I am a Karate instructor of more than 20 years, and have been practicing Aikido for a number of years, I am always searching the net for things Martial arts related, some people go on a pub crawl, I go on a dojo crawl,.

I visited a site called E-Budo.com and went to the Karate section and was dismayed to find the rudeness of some of the people that post messages on it I left totally drained after only a short time reading the comments, the air was so full of something not nice that I had to leave, I was quite embarrassed to think these people actually were like me Karate practitioners, I have been visiting the Aiki web for only a short time and I find it be be very relaxing being here, that each day I cant wait to come back.

I was wondering if anyone else has visited this site, and what was your experience on it.

It leaves me to ponder weather the true nature of karate is being taught or are some instructors focusing too much on how well they can fight and this makes them very aggressive, rather than how many people they can help, even through kind words.

Take care

Perry
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Old 04-06-2006, 01:49 AM   #2
neb1979
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hi Perry,

I'm glad you like it here on Aikiweb. I feel the same, I can't wait to log on during the day and see what is new and what interesting things are being discussed here.

I have been on E-budo before but don't really have an opinion on it as I am here more often than not.

Hope you enjoy what Aikiweb can provide for you, I know I do.

Cheers
Ben

Learn to Suffer, Know your Place and Nothing lasts Forever
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Old 04-06-2006, 04:03 AM   #3
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hi Perry,
we have the same people here, not so many and maybe not as rude as in other forums.

One factor is good moderation - Thanks to Jun

One factor might be the way of training. While the DO in budo should all lead to the same results, many martial artists understand in the beginning "knock him down and you will win the fight". Aikidoka - mostly - start learning "Blend with your opponent and you might win a friend".

There are many dojo in other martial arts, which teach the same idea, but starting at technical subset for beginners through some misled or competition oriented instructors and ending with "the winner gets it all" mentality of championships and media, in many non aiki martial arts the rate of misunderstanding and the time one can stay on the wrong path is much higher, I guess.

I do not know all martial arts so evreyone is invited to convince me of the opposite, but unfortunately her are mostly aikidoka in the forum

Dirk
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:09 AM   #4
James Kelly
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

I suspect that it's not so much a matter of how karate is taught throughout the world (like everything else, there're good teachers and bad teachers) but who is drawn to take up the art in the first place. Obviously, not every karatedoka (??) is by definition more violent than every aikidoka, but it's not hard to conclude that an art that consists of learning to punch, kick and block with an eventual eye on sparring is more likely to attract someone drawn to confrontation than an art of blending and all that other good stuff we do in aikido. In my experience, while the karate schools I've trained in have a high level of courtesy and respect in the higher ranking students, you can't overlook the fact that they have higher levels of aggression in the newer students as well. I don't think that aggression is taught. I think it's there when folks walk in the door. Though an argument can be made that there _is_ something about the nature of karate that retains these more aggressive students (and eventually, hopefully, gets them to calm down).

Glad you like it here though....
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:36 AM   #5
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

James, you are right.
It is a very important point , what kind of students are attracted. I've also seen a few other cases though.

But I do not want to be understood, that all karateke or even the average karateka is necessarily more violent than all (the average) aikidoka.
A few bullies can spoil a forum and the chance to find enough of them in karate, judo, bjj, most Chinese wushu styles is higher, than in aikido. And in overall budo forums, you get in addition some "we are better than you"-effects with very aggressive arguments. And there are also some insulting aikidoka - I am not always with the patient ones. Fortunately we mostly come back to hard but fair communication - or sometimes leave the thread.

And good moderation helps.

Dirk
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:20 AM   #6
Bridge
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Lots of people who come to do aikido seem to have done other stuff before so have heard all the arguments before (and are probably a bit tired of them). Karate seems to be a popular "first" martial art, so you find lots of people who believe very firmly in what they are taught.

I've also noticed that in aikido Senseis teach a variety of methods and say things such as "Well you do .... But Another Sensei likes to do it this way and yet another Sensei does it this other way. Personally I prefer ... method, because...". I've not noticed it as much with the karate instructors I've trained with. It's mostly been "You do ... in this manner, as it's the best method because of..."

I've not seen many children and teenagers doing aikido, well nowhere near as many as are in karate. So maturity of those posting up plays a part. And those posting up in aikido forums are more likely to be adults as a proportion.

Then again I came across a forum where some of the participants participants were younger members of the karate club I train with, and I was absolutely delighted at how civilised it all was!

Not sure what my point is, but I guess it's down to the individual.
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:39 AM   #7
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Quote:
Bridget Chung wrote:
Not sure what my point is, but I guess it's down to the individual.
Of course it is, Bridget. The aikiweb forum is a better forum, because we are the nicer individuals. - We are soooo good


Now there is no reason for further discussion - and the forum is getting boring.

Cn we have a discussion about why the forum isn't interesting any more - oh it's all down to the individuals. Why have the interesting people gone? Individual reasons.


Enough ironical stuff. The individuality argument is right, but it does not help us understanding sociodynamic effects.

Your other points are well taken. But even aikidoka say "We do it this way, because it has these and those advantages". And sometimes we call other styles BS, but even there we are mostly friendly. "They do wonderful aikido, but if you only rely on those assumptions, you probably fail on another uke".

Dirk
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:50 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hmm, I like e-budo, and I also like it here. Can you post a link to a particular thread where you felt there was a problem? Then I could read it, and give you my take on what happened.

E-budo is a rougher place in general than aiki-web. They do not tolerate people who lie about their credentials, fake certificates, claim classical training where there is none, or things of that sort. In that sense, it can function as a clearing house of sorts for the worst and the best. sometimes (when the scent of blood hits the water), they /we can be a bit rough, though.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:53 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Welcome to Aiki-Web.

"I" agree. "I" participate in a lot of different forums and find Aiki-Web one of the better, simply meaning it matches for what "I" want. But because its what "I" want, its still filled with ego, perhaps a different type of ego, but ego none the less.

"I" do think there is something to the non-competitive way we train, without doing harm, that attracts a certain ego that then participates and contributes here.

IMHO, the training practice is congruent with the spiritual philosophy which hopefully changes the mental processes and makes for better human beings.

"I" don't worry much about the bashing arts (even those "I" still practice), it matches for them.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:08 PM   #10
Perry Bell
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hi all,

Please accept my apologies for not answering you all separately, but I feel we are a group in a very big room an a very small planet we call earth. Also my fingers would get really tired from all that typing.

Thank you for your replies to my thread, it is such a good feeling when people include you and even listen to what you have to say then are interested enough to discuss your point of view, please let me thank you all for letting me into your lives it is truly an honor.

I understand that there is good and bad every where, because you cant have one without the other, there is in all of us the choice to either be nice or nasty, maybe I just was unlucky that the threads I had read in E-Budo were nasty, I will go back and visit more because I love the martial arts and I learn a lot form listening to people even if I don't agree with what they are saying, because if in what they say if I learn one small thing then it has been worth while.

Hi Ron

The thread was E-Budo.com-Kiichi Naakamoto , so I am still learning how to use this thing so I don't know how to get to the thread and copy it here with out loosing what I have written, yes it just happened when I tried so I had to start again, oh well I am only a beginner.

Once again thank you all

Be happy and smile heaps


Perry
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:37 PM   #11
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

It is very natural that MA develop ego. Don't intoxicate yourself with illusions. Any martial practice must first develop strong ego in order to execute efficient techniques at beginner and intermediary levels. These techniques will play crucial rule in next step of training process.
It is not possible to advance at higher level without feeling effective technique on yourself. Repetitive receiving such techniques physically is a key to transform any human being; it is very powerful tool, indeed. This transformation is done also on non-physical level, unconsciously. Then one may start to walk on his Do.

So Long Life To Your Ego!!!

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:44 PM   #12
Perry Bell
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
It is very natural that MA develop ego. Don't intoxicate yourself with illusions. Any martial practice must first develop strong ego in order to execute efficient techniques at beginner and intermediary levels. These techniques will play crucial rule in next step of training process.
It is not possible to advance at higher level without feeling effective technique on yourself. Repetitive receiving such techniques physically is a key to transform any human being; it is very powerful tool, indeed. This transformation is done also on non-physical level, unconsciously. Then one may start to walk on his Do.

So Long Life To Your Ego!!!
Hi Szczepan,

Thank you for your input and I totally agree with you, as Sensei Llyn states we all have ego's including me other wise I would probably never feel good about my self, so thank you for input. What I was talking about was not that we should not have an ego but that I visited another forum on another site and the people posting messages on that particular thread were very rude and aggressive toward one another, it was almost like they were trying to prove they were better than one another and in the end they started calling one another names which could almost have be construed to be slander

Which brings me to another question perhaps you can enlighten me on with your opinion .

The two or three guys that were calling one another names in the thread I was talking about.

Question : Is that because they are not keeping their ego's in check or is it another part of the human psyche that causes them to attack one another in the way they did.

I realize you probable have not seen the thread I am talking about but it can be put in any situation where an argument starts and the people arguing become so angered they resort to threats and name calling.

I hope you understand my question and the text I frame it in, if not I apologize and will try again later.

Thank you once again

Perry

Take care and in the words of a great Australian band Ego is not a dirty word .

Last edited by Perry Bell : 04-06-2006 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:57 PM   #13
SeiserL
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Quote:
Perry Bell wrote:
Is that because they are not keeping their ego's in check or is it another part of the human psyche that causes them to attack one another in the way they did.
IMHO, there is no other part of the human psyche than the ego, the mind, the learned mental map of identity.

All attack is based on fear and insecurities. Therefore, the more one attacks or needs to be right, the more insecure they are and already know they are probably wrong. They deserve our compassion and understanding.

As creatures of conditioned habit, most people respond to attack with attack. That is their mental map, their ego. Its what most of us have been initially taught.

Einstein said the type of thinking that creates a problem is never the type of thinking that solves it. That's why Aikido offers a different conflict resolution model that the fear based fight, flight, or freeze reaction.

Don't worry why they do it. Just train so you don't.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-07-2006, 08:04 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hi Perry,

I found the thread you mentioned. Wow, I'm surprised it went on as long as it did. Here's my take on what I've read so far.

1) one person gave his opinion about someone.

2) serveral people started personal attacks and asked for substantiation of the other person's opinion.

3) the first person ponied up with substantiation.

4) all heck broke loose, at least one person got banned, the thread closed, and a new thread started (hopefully without the bickering, I haven't read it yet.

Looks like the ebudo mods dealt with any issues...and there was an open exchange of opinions and a few facts. Not my particular cup of tea, but frankly, for the most part, I agreed with RR. I would take his advice.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:14 PM   #15
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

i thought Aikido would be different than other martial arts, but in the end there are good apples and bad ones. it's amazing what a black skirt will do to some people's ego's.
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:20 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

It's also amazing what Not Having a Black Skirt will do to others...

Ron (just to cover both sides...)

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Old 04-07-2006, 02:54 PM   #17
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hakamitude threatens to ruin us all.
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:56 PM   #18
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

An instructor's role is to teach and train, not to perform. There is a difference.
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:00 PM   #19
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

? Sorry Brad, I don't really follow...did I miss something?

B,
R

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Old 04-07-2006, 04:41 PM   #20
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Quote:
Perry Bell wrote:
I realize you probable have not seen the thread I am talking about but it can be put in any situation where an argument starts and the people arguing become so angered they resort to threats and name calling.
Perry,
Someone once told me this and I have found it to be true in many cases (although there are exceptions).

Once someone loses focus of their arguement and resorts to name calling it is because they can no longer back up their arguement so they resort to personal attacks and trying to tear down the other person instead.

That sounds like it might have been the case here?

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-07-2006, 04:51 PM   #21
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
? Sorry Brad, I don't really follow...did I miss something?

B,
R
"It leaves me to ponder weather the true nature of karate is being taught or are some instructors focusing too much on how well they can fight and this makes them very aggressive........"

Think abut this. It is not the duty of an instructor to convey how well one can fight. If a sensei is trying to display their skill for show and tell, this can be dangerous for the ego. As I said, a sensei should teach and train, not perform. When I teach, it is not at my skill level because there are those in the class that are not ready for that. So, we must sometimes sacrifice our ego and train at the skill level geared toward the general class population. I am usually one step ahead at timies to raise the bar and give a preview of coming attractions but mainly, things have to progress. The students are not there for entertainment or to see how sensei can beat everyone up. In time, the students will know sensei's capabilities without needless displays of aggression.
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:38 AM   #22
David Anderson
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

A few general observations about online MA chat boards...

First of all, only a very tiny number of practitioners show up on online forums. Of that small group, only a few of them will be ranking experts who can be trusted to have a balanced view of anything. Unfortunately, there are also lots of posters that _sound_ like they know a lot, but are all too willing to bandy about ignorant or even mischievious opinions for reasons of their own. Often it is hard to tell the difference between them.

Second, many forums tend toward cliquishness...a few or even a few dozen regular members will dominate the discussions and cheerfully gang up on a newbie, or any inexperienced person and give them a hard time for the fun of it
[of course, some newbies deserve to be spanked when they show up with anime-fuelled 'expertise' or make themselves obnoxious in other ways].

Finally, too many people invest far too much time and energy and interest in online forums. Sure, some forums are worthwhile resources [yes, Aikiweb is good], but all too often I see people looking hard for the validation and emotional support and committment they should be seeking in their practice and their own dojo.

Bottom line...there is a lot of crap in online forums, and it's up to you to winnow it carefully to find the value of them, if any. If participation in a forum makes you feel bad, LEAVE IT, or at least stop contributing. I had some very unpleasant encounters on E-Budo and pretty much left it for several months, and I was amazed at how much better I felt. Beware of the trolls...

Finally, keep in mind that the Martial Arts flourished for generations before there were online forums. As far as I can see, online activity should be the least important part of your MA experience...indeed, it is entirely dispensable. Keep your perspective straight.
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Old 04-09-2006, 08:22 AM   #23
rottunpunk
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

hey dude.
i got the same response in the judo section on e-budo.
its just that they have all there rules.
the aikido section and the sword art and koryu sections are ok and have nice people, as they are the ones that i mainly look at. but then, most of those people post here and on kendo-world too.

dont be disuaded by the site-i think it may be a common thing-just remember 'include your full name or be forced to commit seppuku-mwahaha'

...anyhoos welcome to the forum. i like it here, even though im just a beginner and as such most of what is said goes way above my head. hmmn maybe i should practice ego waza then my head would grow and then stuff would fly into it instead of over it...hmmnn.

ach im rabbling - too much twinings breakfast special-sorry
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Old 04-09-2006, 06:09 PM   #24
giriasis
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Egos abound, especially in online bulletin boards, because people can hide behind a persona. It's less likely to happen in person as the facade is much harder to create. I go back to some of my early posts here and I can't believe some of the things I posted, but it really did reflect where I was at that point. (where I was in my aikido training AND where I was in my understanding of forums like this.)

I take most of what I read here and other places with a grain of salt. It's just words and I've learn not to take what people have to say about me or about what I say personally. It's just not worth it to give these people your time or energy. If someone wants to sound-off, be a pseudo bulletin board sensei, etc. Just go to another thread. It's not worth your time.

Given that, forums like this can be helpful as you can often get useful feedback. I've found from going here (Aikiweb) and being a lurker on the Aikido-L really helped me adjust to switching dojos (Juko-kai to a really good Aikikai dojo). I was able to gain a perspective that I didn't previously have.

So in order to really make places like this useful, you really need to learn to sort the wheat from the shaft. You might get good ideas for future use or help get different perspectives that don't exist in your own dojo.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 04-09-2006, 07:13 PM   #25
Perry Bell
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Re: Ego's in martial arts

Hi all,

Wow, this seems to be turning into a hot topic, I am so thrilled, lets keep it going, I think the harder we look at this the more we might all learn something.

I know for myself after dealing with many people in martial arts, and finding some very arrogant and rude people out there, it was actually a good experience, because it caused me to be aware of my own self and how I deal with other, so when someone takes a shot at me and I feel I want to explode on them I just side step their anger and try to come back from a different angle, its like not meeting the attack head on, but entering from the side and taking the lead or control with out them realizing, till the situation is diffused and they are thinking clearer where they can see both sides, remember its our choice to fight or not.

Thank you all for your contributions I will keep what you all Say in mind when I teach and train.

Take care and be happy

Perry
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