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Old 03-23-2006, 03:35 PM   #1
skinnymonkey
Dojo: Black Walnut Aikido - Ashland, OH
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Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Hello everyone,

I am a new member here and I am fairly new to Aikido (although I did take a few months of Hombu style and a few months of Tomiki style several years ago).

Here is my quandary... I have a Tomiki style school that is fairly close to me. I like the instructor and it's a lot of fun, but they don't focus any time on the spiritual aspect of the art... it's mostly technical with a stronger emphasis on practical application. I like it and I like the physicality of it, but I don't know if it is quite getting it for me.

There is a hombu style school that is about an hour away that looks like it focuses more on the spiritual aspect of the art. That interests me greatly.

The problem is that I have two kids and a wife (who I actually enjoy spending time with), so I'm not able to drive that far on a regular basis.

I'm thinking about going to the weekly Tomiki classes and only going to the Hombu dojo once a month or so.

My question is this. Will it be a problem (with technique and attitude) switching between these two?

Thanks in advance for all of the help and I look forward to your insights.

Skinnymonkey
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:25 PM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

I once heard, Tomiki-ryu of Shodokan (that being the official name) is actually still part of Aikikai Federation (there was never an official split).... Can the Shodothugs in the forum please chime in? Technically Jeff, going to the Hombu or Tomiki dojo is actually still going to the same organization. Just thought of putting in some absolutely useless trivia for fun. Sorry...

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 03-23-2006, 11:41 PM   #3
Jory Boling
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

I've mixed both styles before and felt like it was more helpful than harmful. I learned and saw a lot in one that I never saw in the other. Go for it! It's not like trying it will ruin you.

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Old 03-24-2006, 12:54 AM   #4
crbateman
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

You will find schools that emphasize spiritual, philosophical and "internal" aspects of Aikido, and those that do just the opposite, in all systems of Aikido. This is not so much an organizational thing, but a matter of personal preference and training background specific to each instructor. What is important is that you look for an instructor whose particular training methodology gives you what you want. And then train hard and have fun. There will be ample time down the road to expose yourself to contrasting points of view if you wish.
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Old 03-24-2006, 01:50 AM   #5
PeterR
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
I once heard, Tomiki-ryu of Shodokan (that being the official name) is actually still part of Aikikai Federation (there was never an official split).... Can the Shodothugs in the forum please chime in? Technically Jeff, going to the Hombu or Tomiki dojo is actually still going to the same organization. Just thought of putting in some absolutely useless trivia for fun. Sorry...
Ok first lets answer this.

Kenji Tomiki was never expelled or quit from the Aikikai but the Japan Aikido Association set up in 1975 was definitely outside of it. By that point there really was no other option.

Shodokan Honbu also serves as an Aikikai dojo with its own Shihan. Kimura Shihan was a student of Hirokazu Kobayashi (Shihan of the Osaka Aikikai) as was the current head of the Shodokan. By Tomiki's arrangement Nariyama Shihan spent six years as uchideshi with Kobyashi Shihan in the truest sense of the word. When Shodokan Honbu opened after renovation last year there were several eminent Aikikai Shihan in attendance including one giving a really superb Shihan Enbu.

Politics is never pretty especially when memories or beliefs are challenged. I have noticed that once you step outside of the respective Honbu then things get a lot easier - at least in Japan.

April 8th I (a Shodokan guy) will have an Aikikai Shihan visiting along with a Yoshinkan instructor. Possibly a special case but when my Shihan found out about it he decided to send his own deshi (Godan) and three very skilled Shodokan members to participate. They might not be able to do this thing at their respective Honbu but .....


Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
'm thinking about going to the weekly Tomiki classes and only going to the Hombu dojo once a month or so.

My question is this. Will it be a problem (with technique and attitude) switching between these two?
Sounds like a plan - its what I would do. Hmm technique and attitude. You might just find the same problem going between different dojo within the same style. Most people, especially with a bit of experience under their obi, wont have a problem.


Anyhow - I happily cross train and several of my students past and present did the same.

Cheers

Last edited by PeterR : 03-24-2006 at 02:01 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-24-2006, 03:28 AM   #6
raul rodrigo
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Ok first lets answer this.

By Tomiki's arrangement Nariyama Shihan spent six years as uchideshi with Kobyashi Shihan in the truest sense of the word.
My shihan Kenji Kumagai of Wakayama, who began his aikido training in the 1960s under Kobayashi Shihan of the Osaka Aikikai, once said that he once taught Nariyama Shihan a few things about Aikikai techniques a few decades back. I'd always wondered how that came about; he said this in the course of a long night of beer drinking and I was never able to clarify the story. (It came up because my sensei met and trained a bit with Mike McCavish of Shodokan Hombu). Now I know.
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Old 03-24-2006, 03:52 AM   #7
PeterR
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Perfect example of what a small insular world it really is. I was at Mike's place in the Philippines last year. He had all the neighborhood kids coming for Aikido class. It was great.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-24-2006, 04:42 AM   #8
batemanb
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
April 8th I (a Shodokan guy) will have an Aikikai Shihan visiting along with a Yoshinkan instructor. Possibly a special case but when my Shihan found out about it he decided to send his own deshi (Godan) and three very skilled Shodokan members to participate. They might not be able to do this thing at their respective Honbu but .....

Don't forget the Aikikai pleb....

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 03-24-2006, 08:33 AM   #9
skinnymonkey
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Thank you all for your insight. I think I will keep up with the Tomiki and just spend some time at the hombu dojo when I can.

Thanks!

Jeff D.
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:03 AM   #10
raul rodrigo
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Perfect example of what a small insular world it really is. I was at Mike's place in the Philippines last year. He had all the neighborhood kids coming for Aikido class. It was great.

Its even more "small world" than that. Mike M was wondering why my sensei's irimi nage looks nothing like the irimi nage of Moriteru and Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the "flowing" kind that's become very common. It looked, he said, more like something they do at Shodokan. So now it turns out that the brand of irimi nage that my sensei and Mike both practice has at least one common root in the old Osaka dojo of Hirokazu Kobayashi. And they meet by chance on Philippine seas many miles from their home dojos.
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:03 AM   #11
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote:
Thank you all for your insight. I think I will keep up with the Tomiki and just spend some time at the hombu dojo when I can.

Thanks!

Jeff D.
Hi Jeff, just to avoid further confusion:
Hombu dojo means headquarter.
The Tomiki style has its shodokan hombu dojo, and what you refer to is the aikikai hombu dojo, while I do not think you are going to "spend some time inTokyo, when you can".

You'ld better refer to Tomiki (or Shodokan/Shodokai) and Aikikai.

Regards Dirk
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:40 AM   #12
odudog
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

You've already made your decision but I'll chime in anyway. I would have said to do the Tomiki since it is more convienant. Also you can still learn the spiritual side of Aikido by yourself through books, dvds, etc... Besides, I'm assuming that what you saw at the Tomiki dojo was the basic run of the mill class. So, maybe the Sensei there will instruct on the spiritual side of things but much later on when you get to a certain level. He in essence is holding it back for the people who truely want to learn all there is to this art. Don't want to to waste your breathe on people who will be gone in a couple of months.
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Old 03-24-2006, 04:18 PM   #13
billybob
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

I'm kind of ignorant of all the politics and just love to train. We do have some young guys who the local Tomiki style Sensei, who trained for decades under my judo shihan, told to learn aikido from us.

One of the guys, said "You don't study a martial art to get enlightened. You study it to learn to fight."

In my typical arcane yoda-like way I replied, "What if they are the same thing?"

We both laughed together at that one. Funny thing is - what if they are?

dave
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:20 PM   #14
PeterR
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Its even more "small world" than that. Mike M was wondering why my sensei's irimi nage looks nothing like the irimi nage of Moriteru and Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the "flowing" kind that's become very common. It looked, he said, more like something they do at Shodokan. So now it turns out that the brand of irimi nage that my sensei and Mike both practice has at least one common root in the old Osaka dojo of Hirokazu Kobayashi. And they meet by chance on Philippine seas many miles from their home dojos.
Oh Oh this is getting interesting. Some people say that Nariyama Shihan's Aikido is heavily influenced by Kobyashi's especially with respect to the very tight wrist rotations. The body type (and possibly the personality) of the two were much more similar than either with Tomiki.

I would not say the common root of the iriminage is Hirokazu Kobayashi since Tomiki performed them the same way - more a reflection of the period spanning Tomiki and Kobyashi's education under Ueshiba M. with very little Aikikai Honbu influence.

Interesting tidbit was that when Nariyama Shihan was uchideshi to Kobayashi he taught Tomiki's randori method at Osaka University (then under Kobayashi Shihan). Year's later I was visiting a biochemistry lab and over coffee we got to talking. The professor remembered some of the toughest Aikido lessons he ever had. Again small world.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-25-2006, 09:40 AM   #15
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
You'ld better refer to Tomiki (or Shodokan/Shodokai) and Aikikai.
To avoid more confusion, the body responsible for Shodokan Aikido is the Japan Aikido Association (Nihon Aikido Kyokai). There is no "Shodokai" from my understanding at least.

Wrt the original question I think training in both methods has great benefits. I've only learnt more by training with other Aikido groups. My only advice would be the same given to someone who has now begun training in multiple Budo styles at the same time.

It may be best to develop one's technical core of fundamentals in the style one wants to emulate technically before training seriously at another dojo or style since there are differences in the movements which can be confusing if one is still trying to learn and develop one's technical basics (i.e. tai sabaki, tsukuri, posture etc.)

Just my thoughts. I reserve the right to be wrong.
LC

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Old 03-27-2006, 10:40 AM   #16
skinnymonkey
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Hi Jeff, just to avoid further confusion:
Hombu dojo means headquarter.
The Tomiki style has its shodokan hombu dojo, and what you refer to is the aikikai hombu dojo, while I do not think you are going to "spend some time inTokyo, when you can".

You'ld better refer to Tomiki (or Shodokan/Shodokai) and Aikikai.

Regards Dirk
Thank you. I will be certain to do that. My apologies.

Jeff D.
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Old 04-01-2006, 02:19 AM   #17
Kaan Berberoglu
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Re: Tomiki and Hombu - Can you work in both?

I studied with Dave Neetles in Denver, he was amazing. My friends, training in different styles can mean a great deal of experience gain, in my point of view. It maybe different to the way I usually train, but the ki is still the point of the matter. It surrounds us, and brings us closer. I'm glad to say I'm never afraid to try anything new. I might not share the same opinion, but certainly I respect all.
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