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Old 03-24-2006, 07:53 AM   #26
DH
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Xu

In my Dojo I teach everyone first to be an aggressive attacker. Using power from every angle.
Next how to NOT take Ukemi from a failed attack but rather to neutralize an opponents counter and re-set to attack again at full speed using power from every angle.
Then...body training to NOT be throwable, lockable or chokable, but to stand and neutralize an attackers energy.
Last?
To take Ukemi in the off chance it could be needed and to do so as a means to throw or take the opponent out.
Never…NEVER to just “take” anything from someone as a protective means.
A Persons ability to throw any of my men without their consent is very small. The chance to get set up and played in a fight is there but the means and methods are different.Therefore their “need” for ukemi is negligible to begin with.
This “Learn to take ukemi for safety” is largely B.S. ! Did I just say that? Why Yes I did.

If you watch fighters fight the need for ukemi is very, very small. Why?
Body dynamics. When you are in attack mode-full on attack mode-your body should be in a relaxed/held tension that protects itself. Were a person to train according to percentages of actuality their time in Ukemi training would be far less.
You are in fact training your body to lose and to protect something that does not need to be protected that way in a real fight. In other words, the dynamics of a trained attacking body preserves itself as well, if not better, as a trained losing body.
Example:
Choosing to “take” Ukemi from Kotegeishi is perfectly ridiculous as no one should ever be able to twist your wrist that way to begin with. My men could offer you their arms and they would just stand there as you tried every manner of lock that you know. Your efforts would amount to nothing and at anytime during your attempts they could throw “you” with your efforts.
Now……what were they doing to you while you were trying to lock them?
They were training Ukemi.

What about training to simply stand there and not be throwable? Or lockable. Isn’t that the ultimate Aikido goal? Isn’t that what Ueshiba’s goal was through his Daito ryu training- to neutralize every attack without having to attack back?
If Aikidoka stopped “taking” and fought back it would change the art forever.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-24-2006 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:11 AM   #27
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
What about training to simply stand there and not be throwable? Or lockable. Isn't that the ultimate Aikido goal?
Hi dan, if you could also add unhittable, I'ld say YES

Dirk
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:20 AM   #28
roosvelt
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:

What about training to simply stand there and not be throwable? Or lockable. Isn't that the ultimate Aikido goal? Isn't that what Ueshiba's goal was through his Daito ryu training- to neutralize every attack without having to attack back?
True.

But it's nage's turn to simply stand there and not be throwable. Uke will get his turn next round.


Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:

If Aikidoka stopped "taking" and fought back it would change the art forever.

Cheers
Dan

True too.

But it's a different training method, for example tai chi push hand.

In most Aikido dojo, the clear definition of nage and uke. The uke helps nage to learn his technique. The uke increase his attack and resistance according to nage's ability. If the uke gives 100% at very beginning, the nage will not be able to do any technique for years.

In body lifting, you start bench at 50 lbs then 100 lbs, 150 lbs .. until you reach 500 lbs. If you start from 500 lbs, you can't lift it. If you keeping trying the 500 lbs for years only. You still can't do it because you don't have a chance to work on you muscle. If you start from light weight and progress to heavy, you have a good chance to get the 500 lbs.

Is Aikido a good training method. I don't know.

But I do think there is a real problem in Aikido. Not want to point fingers, it may brush a few egos. But there is the sad reality. Someone who can't move a resistant uke and complain he's a jerk and deserves a knee to the fork, then boats one handles the serious attach the best. Someone who can't move a visiting instructor who put a real resistance, now complains there's lack of aggressive uke.

Now it seems to me some Aikido dojo is built on top of lies. If my technique doesn't work, the uke doesn't know how to attach correctly. All the beginners are chided into a 5 lbs dumb bell. The sempai who can only handle 5 lbs think there's all to it. They progress from lift 5 lbs to toss the 5 lbs, from sempai to sensei, from toss 5 lbs to juggle multiple 5 lbs, from sensei to shihan. It prompt some bad ass low kyu aikidoda to say that he can beat a few shihan into pulp. I doubt if he can. But it shows the level of aikidoda that he's encountered.
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:35 AM   #29
ruthmc
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
But I do think there is a real problem in Aikido. Not want to point fingers, it may brush a few egos. But there is the sad reality. Someone who can't move a resistant uke and complain he's a jerk and deserves a knee to the fork, then boats one handles the serious attach the best. Someone who can't move a visiting instructor who put a real resistance, now complains there's lack of aggressive uke.
Hi Roosvelt,

There is a difference in my experience between a resistant uke and somebody making an intentional attack. The intentional attacker will strike or throw you if you do nothing. The resistant uke will simply use his strength and continuously switch his direction of energy to hold you in place. Resistance is not a true attack.

YMMV.

If somebody wants to hit me or throw me, I'll move and redirect that energy, otherwise I'll come off worst. If somebody just wants to hold my wrists all day, there's no real intent to harm me, so Aikido doesn't come into it in that case

Ruth
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:29 AM   #30
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:

If somebody wants to hit me or throw me, I'll move and redirect that energy, otherwise I'll come off worst. If somebody just wants to hold my wrists all day, there's no real intent to harm me, so Aikido doesn't come into it in that case

Ruth
So what's the koky-dosai about? Isn't it a basics in Aikido?
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:36 AM   #31
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
So what's the koky-dosai about? Isn't it a basics in Aikido?
I'm curious -- what is your intent as uke during kokyu dosa?

-- Jun

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Old 03-24-2006, 10:40 AM   #32
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
I'm curious -- what is your intent as uke during kokyu dosa?

-- Jun

Try to pin the nage to the mat.
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:43 AM   #33
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Try to pin the nage to the mat.
Interesting. Oftentimes, my intent is to throw nage as uke...

-- Jun

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Old 03-24-2006, 11:57 AM   #34
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Dan,
It sounds like you have an interesting school, is it an Aikido school? I believe Aikidoka need to add resistance to their training, but lack of good ukemi skills is not the way to go about it.


Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Choosing to "take" Ukemi from Kotegeishi is perfectly ridiculous as no one should ever be able to twist your wrist that way to begin with.
I have seen Kotegeishi used several times in amateur MMA and Submissions Wrestling, and it worked fine, no big jump in the air granted, but it brought a man down. I don't know if you need to "teach" students to be "unlockable" or "unthrowable" as much as you just need to teach them good locks and throws, then let them work them on each other, once you do this, seems like they will have to learn ukemi, because one of them IS going to end up bringing the other one down.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-24-2006, 02:43 PM   #35
DH
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Hi Chris
Judo to Aikido to Daito ryu and Koryu.
But everything incorporated into MMA! Everywhere, and all the time- looong before it got popular.

General Discussion points
Kokyu Dosa is an exercise and a type of foundational training that can lead to a group of skills to establish a body and frame that will make wrist lock types of attack all but impossible to establish on a person as well as adding an enhanced stability, balance and flow that makes getting thrown very difficult as well. From there you have to go deeper in your body skills training -sans technique-as a study all its own. Once you begin down that road it is addicting, and for many, life changing. And "specific" arts tend to loose their flavour very, very fast.
Anyway as for wrist locks I find I must dissagree in that you DO NOT see them working in any serious percentages among truly able guys. Shoulder and arm bars like the Kimura and crosses and Traingle chokes are different but even they get harder to apply with experienced men as well. What I am saying is not new-although other than Rob and Akuzawa, Tim Cartmell and myself I don't know of many who are trying these internal body skills in MMA work.
But put that aside for a moment.

The idea of aggression is one thing- the reality another.
Wanting to be, or to "have" more agression in an attack is laudable. But the training is not just physical, it really has to be mental as well. The road there is to fight in one form or another. I honestly don't know any other way. There is Dojo, sport, and trained agression and then true violent aggression. I do believe that those who have faced certain things in life have a different take on aggression and the de-escalation of it-as well as being responsive or non-responsive by choice. You can usually tell it in a man. But in lue of having the experience of real danger or having to risk real danger; sport and free style is probably the best all around "tool" to get measurable results in each person.
Using force-on-force in a friendly ramped up model still requires someone who can deliver and challenge the statis quo of a fixed art or way. That gets difficult as you need someone who knows how to "undo" what you do. And all of it can get difficult to do in a fixed style dojo, with a teachers approval and with safe and sane people.
There really isn't anything that needs to be said though. At this point most people see through the veil of half-baked and attacks by those with little or no skills. They get it. It's up to the individual to find those willing to explore and to envigorate their arts.

Back to the resisting model: I don't see anything wrong with getting someone to fight you with something other than Aikido technique, and to do so in a slow build-up of power to aid the nage into working on increasing their foundational strength. In fact the best way to "learn" speed and technique-in-speed is to go slow any way. That said, why not work it with gradual power increases for mutual benefit?

Cheers
Dan




Once

Last edited by DH : 03-24-2006 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 07:14 PM   #36
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Funny you mention Tim Cartmell, he's one of the guys I've seen do Kotegeishi for real first hand. The reason you don't often see wrist locks working (besides the fact that few systems train them), is because in an unarmed fight there is no reason to lock some ones wrist, when you could be choking them, knocking them out or braking a larger appendage. However if they have something in their hand that you don't want them to be able to hold anymore braking or locking a wrist is a good option. Also mastering the movements of "locking a wrist" enables you to escape more readily when someone grabs your wrist, threatening to brake it may make them let go, allowing you to use your weapon.

Yes resistance is key, if you don't have resistance you will not grow as a person. Resistance is what makes your mind expand, your muscles grow, your speed quicken, and your technique develop. However resistance out of context, will not develop the techniques of Aikido, but will in fact develop something new all together, not that this would be wrong, just not Aikido. If you want to develop your Aikido technique using resistance, you must first understand why you would use the techniques of Aikido in the first place. If you go about training in an unarmed practice you will find the techniques of Aikido rarely come up. Finding a challenging partner shouldn't be difficult (well unless you are some kind of super athlete), as long as you and your Dojo mates train in the same fashion and regularly, you should all be on pretty much the same level and be able to give each other a challenge.

-Chris Hein
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Old 03-25-2006, 12:31 AM   #37
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
Hi Boon,
I have absolutely no idea how to do Aikido with wussy attacks! Sure I can muscle in and throw, but that's not Aikido IMHO. So I will say that I can do techniques against wussy attacks, but I cannot do Aikido.
A wussy attack has no intention to hit, therefore no conflict can arise from the encounter unless I (as tori) intend to attack uke instead. Aikido could then occur if uke defends himself against my attack.. But then we have reversed the roles and I end up always being uke. Aikido is the resolution of conflict - so no conflict, no Aikido necessary
Perhaps this is a catch 22 situation, if uke do not give you the energy to work with, you cannot do aikido. If you capitalize on the wussy attack by being the uke yourself, you don't do aikido. Thanks and that is why I need to constantly remind myself not to be too dogmatic on what is aikido and what is not.

Quote:
ruth wrote:
Perhaps this is why we all end up muscling the techniques, because as tori we have to provide the energy that uke is lacking Thoughts anyone? Ruth
Reminds me of yesterday judo training, I was randori 'ing with a another judoka when he sweeps me with Osoto Gari and I felt that he actually puts all his power into the sweep, sacrificing his balance. All I did was just perform a casual back fall, still clinging on to his dogi and reverse the Osoto Gari with a sacrifice throw followed by a newaza pin, which he surrendered when he could not reverse/escape it. (Hey, I am new to this newaza stuff, so kindly bear with me if I am a little on cloud nine, OK?)

This is one of the many reasons on why we should not muscle a technique where possible, it just open up to reversal if one is not careful. It is better to let the technique happen naturally.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
This "Learn to take ukemi for safety" is largely B.S. ! Did I just say that? Why Yes I did
Err... rather radical thinking no? Personally I primarily learn how take ukemi for safety reason, more so now as I also do Judo. I would not expect a noobie sans ukemi skill to just go on to the mat and randori freely.

Quote:
roosvelt wrote:
...<snip>... Someone who can't move a visiting instructor who put a real resistance, now complains there's lack of aggressive uke.
Hmmm, Roosvelt no ego brush here, sir. But Ruth in post #29 first paragraph quite answer it. I agree the above issue is quite irrelevant to this thread.

To further chime in and to put it into relevant context...desiring an uke who sincerely gives a committed attack which offers me the necessary energy to practice/master a technique with versus a relatively bigger size uke holding you tightly and not budging and when you decide to do something about it, he chided you for not doing "his aikido" properly is an entirely different issue/argument altogether.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
There really isn't anything that needs to be said though. At this point most people see through the veil of half-baked and attacks by those with little or no skills. They get it. It's up to the individual to find those willing to explore and to invigorate their arts.
Thanks Dan, you put it nicely there. But make no mistake about it, I still can get very good uke in my dojo, but I guess maybe I am a little adventurous now, and currently wishes to seek and explore things outside my aikido comfort zone to invigorate my martial journey. This could be one of the reason I started this thread I guess.

Thank you all for participating in this thread.

Last edited by xuzen : 03-25-2006 at 12:33 AM.

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Old 03-27-2006, 03:56 AM   #38
Nick Simpson
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Great thread

Quote:
In your opinion and experience, are aikido practitioners thinking too much on how to become a good tori whilst neglecting on how to better themselves as uke. In this context, a good uke is not limited to just taking good ukemi, but also the ability to give sincere and committed attacks.
I agree with this. Of course not everyone does it, but alot of people do. If your not gonna hit each other then wheres the stress/danger/pressure? Im not advocating hitting a noob on their first lesson, but, I try to hit all my sempai and instructors and some of my kohai. Once to my embarrassment broke my girlfriends nose with shomen uchi (on the mat) and I've done Steve Mullens cartlidge no end of good with jodan tsuki

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Old 03-27-2006, 11:13 AM   #39
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Body dynamics. When you are in attack mode-full on attack mode-your body should be in a relaxed/held tension that protects itself. Were a person to train according to percentages of actuality their time in Ukemi training would be far less.
You are in fact training your body to lose and to protect something that does not need to be protected that way in a real fight. In other words, the dynamics of a trained attacking body preserves itself as well, if not better, as a trained losing body.
Dan,

I was curious if you had read Ellis Amdur's piece on ukemi over on aikido journal:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=846

The quick summary is that good ukemi is conditioning exercise & also puts uke in a good position for counters, beyond any commentary on 'safety.'

As a guy who happily admits to being pretty 'green', I was curious if you find his opinion compatible with your's or different.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:06 PM   #40
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:

Hmmm, Roosvelt no ego brush here, sir. But Ruth in post #29 first paragraph quite answer it. I agree the above issue is quite irrelevant to this thread.
It's very relevant. The bigger problem I see is "advanced skill" building on top of shaky foundation.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:

To further chime in and to put it into relevant context...desiring an uke who sincerely gives a committed attack which offers me the necessary energy to practice/master a technique with versus a relatively bigger size uke holding you tightly and not budging and when you decide to do something about it, he chided you for not doing "his aikido" properly is an entirely different issue/argument altogether.
The static hold is the basic building block for the more advanced practice. If one doesn't know the basic, static version, how can one perform any dynamic version?
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:35 PM   #41
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Sincere "attacks" are important, but not to be confused with really being attacked.
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:50 PM   #42
Michael O'Brien
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
The static hold is the basic building block for the more advanced practice. If one doesn't know the basic, static version, how can one perform any dynamic version?
It is my understanding that the staic hold does serve as a good basis for first learning the technique, yes.

However, it is just supposed to be that, a hold. Not a two handed death grip where uke is trying to crush your wrists and not allow you to move if he outweighs you but 75 pounds.

The reality of Aikido (again from my understanding and training) is that the technique starts when uke first moves to strike/grab/etc or when you first feel contact when uke is behind you. In that sense your technique is dynamic and not designed for you to learn to move a 280 pound uke from a static hold position when you let him grab both your wrists in his bear paws. If you are doing technique properly he should never be able to grab you in the first place to hold you in place.

In a static training environment the responsibility of uke is to offer sincere resistance to allow nage to find the technique, not to try and shut the technique down. Shutting the technique down goes against the entire Aikido training philosophy.

*throws .02 in the bucket*

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Old 03-28-2006, 10:10 PM   #43
xuzen
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
It's very relevant. The bigger problem I see is "advanced skill" building on top of shaky foundation. The static hold is the basic building block for the more advanced practice. If one doesn't know the basic, static version, how can one perform any dynamic version?
Roosvelt, I used to think of the same like you previously. I wanted to be strong in the techniques and able to do the technique as it is... pure and undiluted. I was an idealist back then. To me, it was black or white and there was never shades of grey in between.

Sir, not anymore. My current view is such... static kihon waza is only a learning tool. I'd learn it, forget it, move on and don't dwell too much into it.

Quote:
Mike O'Brien wrote:
The reality of Aikido (again from my understanding and training) is that the technique starts when uke first moves to strike/grab/etc or when you first feel contact when uke is behind you. In that sense your technique is dynamic and not designed for you to learn to move a 280 pound uke from a static hold position when you let him grab both your wrists in his bear paws. If you are doing technique properly he should never be able to grab you in the first place to hold you in place.
Thanks Mike, you said it very well here, thanks for saving me the trouble of typing something similar. Roosvelt, I think you think too highly of kihon waza. It is OK, so did I. My current view is such that randori and free style training (e.g. jiyu waza) gives better insight into a technique more than static kihon waza.

I will also ask my sensei again about his view regarding kihon vs randori training again, but I am sure I heard him said before that randori is a better/more efficient way to learn a technique. Roosvelt, I will ask him again this weekend when I attend his class. To be honest, I have actually forget about that particular episode until you brought it up again here.

p/s Just for triviality, I also wonder why that same visiting instructor refused to participate in jiyu waza with me. He humbly bowed and sit out the remaining of the class while the rest of the class throw each other silly. My bet is that his grip of death will not be so effective when I am not confined / restricted by the kihon waza.

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Old 03-29-2006, 07:08 AM   #44
DH
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Nicholas Pagnucco wrote:
Dan,

I was curious if you had read Ellis Amdur's piece on ukemi over on aikido journal:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=846

The quick summary is that good ukemi is conditioning exercise & also puts uke in a good position for counters, beyond any commentary on 'safety.'

As a guy who happily admits to being pretty 'green', I was curious if you find his opinion compatible with your's or different.
Hi

I think you missed my point. As well, taking Ukemi as a means to place oneself in a superior position is a broad ranged commentary stated equally well from the gentlest aiki-bunny to the most capable MMA guy. I know which view I would demonstrate personally and I am not so sure I can convey it in words.

My view is that we learn Ukemi skills and master them- I am quite comfortable with mine-but then to train in such a way that they are not needed nor used except when cooperating to help the other guy. There is a body dynamic that is set up for "taking" Ukemi There is quite another for never taking ukemi but essentially countering everything, protecting yourself, and causing damage. As an example: Some may say -Instead of taking a kote gaeshi - take kotegaeshi and kick while going over. I am talking about a totally different dynamic than that.One that does not involve "going over" in the first place. Instead having a different mindset altogether, similar to what you see in a freestyle MMA bout.

Consider this.... Most experienced fighters encounter more violence and dangerous techniques in their daily training then you will encounter in your average dojo of any kind-yet their responses to punches, kicks, locks etc. do not include anything even remotely resembling Aikido’s ukemi. So how can that be?
Ukemi training -whether we like it or not -has a profound effect on how your body and mind will react in a confrontation. It should reflect your stability and "internal" thinking in response.
I once saw senior students of a VERY well known Aikido teacher taking Ukemi by springing on their hands and feet. The plausibility factor was that they could move and react better than landing on their backs. It took everything in me not to leap on their backs and do a rear naked choke (what we do when we get wrestlers in who train to not let their shoulder land) or Drop kick them in the head or sides. The reason it exists as an Ukemi is that in that dojo? They do not kick in the head or mount and do rear naked chokes.
Another is responses I have seen to cross lapel chokes in Daito ryu. Cross lapel chokes –from the front-should not exist as a technique on the planet earth against the human frame. When done to me I just say thank you and head butt, upper cut or knee the guy. As a technique it has survived due to agreed rules and responses.
Whether folks can see it or not there is a tacit body dynamic of “giving up” in taking Ukemi that is far different from an inherent body dynamic of fighting back. Things that may seem plausible to you in the dojo as an “x” art guy many times are pure fantasy and would quickly and expediently be dealt when all bets are off.
In closing I would suggest to you that many MMA guys could enter in and play with many Traditional guys all the day long with out ever once “taking” an Ukemi that even remotely resembles…well…Ukemi. And they would not be hurt or harmed from the lack.
Where does that leave the arts? They train in agreed rules and limits and largely improbable…. probabilities.


I am not suggesting that anyone give up or be difficult in a dojo. Just that they see the arts for all that they are. Then go cooperate and have fun.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-29-2006 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:51 AM   #45
Nick Pagnucco
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I think you missed my point. As well, taking Ukemi as a means to place oneself in a superior position is a broad ranged commentary stated equally well from the gentlest aiki-bunny to the most capable MMA guy. I know which view I would demonstrate personally and I am not so sure I can convey it in words.
Oh, I am quite sure I missed your point
Thats why I posted a link to an article I think I understand, and asked you to elaborate a bit.

And now I think I understand your point of view better. Thanks for the reply; its important food for thought for me.
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Old 03-29-2006, 12:44 PM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Xu wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps this is a catch 22 situation, if uke do not give you the energy to work with, you cannot do aikido. If you capitalize on the wussy attack by being the uke yourself, you don't do aikido. Thanks and that is why I need to constantly remind myself not to be too dogmatic on what is aikido and what is not.
This basically sums up my thoughts on the situation! Thanks Xu

If a guy resist and stands there. I usually just stand there at look at him as well! No threat, nothing coming at you...why do you want to try and make chicken salad (okay tofu salad, I'm a vegetarian )

We all get in our minds when we start training what we percieve as the outcome of a situation should be. Usually it is to do exactly what sensei told us to do. However, when we encounter a different set of variables than what sensei was working with, and we try and replicate the exact same response...well we get frustrated trying to beat a round peg into a square hole! This is not aikido!

aikido is developing the wisdom to skillful apply the right things at the right time!
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Old 03-29-2006, 12:52 PM   #47
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Good post Dan (#44) generally I agree with your comments.

I would only add that the reasons for training in aikido are much different than training for MMA and for a real Combative environment.

While there are skills that exist in each art that certainly can be crossed over and applied, and like you said a MMA guy could take ukemi all day long from an aikido guy is correct. The hard part would be getting them to actually engage or agree upon the engagement to...oh say, the clinch as they philosophically and strategically approach the situation different.

I think what I would caution people against in aikido is trying to turn it into something it was never designed to be. Comparing it to MMA, or approaching aikido from a fully resistant paradigm is pointless and defeats the reasons for studying aikido. It does not, as I believe you are pointing out, invalidiate the art, or cause it to be ineffective.
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Old 03-30-2006, 10:49 PM   #48
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Kevin

I would caution back that the one remaining constant in Aikido is that there is no constant in Aikido.

What you make of it, and what you do; is yours. It is my view that once Ueshiba mastered the internal aspects of Daito ryu he realized he no longer needed to fight...back- he could neutralize and stop anything coming his way.

I believe that the essence of Ueshiba's Aikido-the true power- is actually missing from Aikido.
There is only one way to get there. Internal training that does NOT take Ukemi. It is the first step to real mastery...AND creating a means and method to HIS realization of being able to nuetralize everything, and not have to harm in return.
The rest...just feeds the machine.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-30-2006 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 03-31-2006, 08:09 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

The one constant in aikido is what the founder was very clear about...the endstate/goal of aikido, which was not to allow people to achieve and understand peace and harmony on an inter/intrapersonal level.

It was not about the attacks, techniques, or defeating uke.

He gave us a basic methodology that worked for him, many feel that it also works for them.

We might interpret things slightly different and emphasize different aspects.

However, once we stop focusing on the endstate and goal, well, we are no longer doing what the founder defined as aikido. You can call it whatever you like, but it is not aikido.

Sine we are communicating on the internet, it is hard say if you and I would differ and it may just be symantics, but I tend to think a little more broadly about things. I would wouldn't get even as technical as you to say "the goal is to NOT take ukemi". Certainly a part of it, but I think it is even more general in nature than that. Ukemi may or may not be involved depending on the situation.

I'd say as long as the outcome of a situation is understanding, peace, or harmony...or some sort of mutual reconcilation takes place...then it is irrelevant if ukemi, strikes, bullets, or what not are involved.

I think we all get too far in the weeds on the subject and focus on the little things and don't see the big picture some times. Losing sight of this, we start getting lost in the art and then have to define, label, quantify, validate, and measure ourselves by the physical skills that we have defined as "aikido".

I think you and I would agree it seems on most things and Yes, I think that a big part is missing in many people's aikido, however, there are just as many out there that understand it too!
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:31 PM   #50
Saji Jamakin
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Re: Are we not aggressive enough?

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote:
Yes

But there is also the fear of making firm friends with the floor, as mentioned previously. And some people have to get over a lifetime of conditioning that it is bad to try to hit someone else..

I'm strongly in favour of teaching ukemi skills to beginners at a much higher standard than is currently fashionable.

Put simply, Aikido works very well against a true attack. It doesn't work against a wussy or inconsistent attack. So I think we do ourselves a great disservice as tori when we don't train our uke to attack properly.

A true attack needn't be hard and fast, so there's no problem in using this to help to develop your ukemi skills. It takes sensitivity and common sense on both sides, just as learning to throw and pin does

The other problem that most uke encounter is that of the nervous tori. Most people are unaware of how much time they have to avoid an incoming strike because they have never played with this and pushed those boundaries. I have discovered two important things by exploring this: 1) You always have more than enough time and 2) Getting hit hard isn't that big a deal. It's fear of the unknown that you are dealing with, not fear of being struck.

So go push on those boundaries people!



Ruth
I Agree!
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