Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Anonymous

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-15-2006, 11:53 PM   #26
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Tom Newhall wrote:
.... but isn't asking him to do this as a condition to training imposing your ideology on him?
Well, no. I don't think it has anything to do with imposing ideology nor is it a condition of training. If anything, bringing one's religious beliefs onto the mat and restricting the practice of one's self and of others (because the dojo now has to make accommodations) is tantamount to imposing one's ideology on the dojo and its participants.

Unless physical, emotional or mental limitations are involved here which will limit the range of one's practice and of others - which I do not believe they are - then that's a different issue.

The purpose of the practice is martial in nature. It is a reflection of life. You might be able to choose who you train with - male or female, but you certainly can't choose what life throws at you. Learn to deal with it, or don't.

How would he feel if the tables were turned - no one will train with him because he is not of the right color, sex and religion.

Turn the argument around. Does the religion consider female bodily contact in a martial context "unnecessary"? If it is, then it should apply to any body contact martial art and co-ed contact sport - not just aikido. The issue is not with aikido or the dojo.

And it certainly has nothing to do with ideology or discrimination on religious grounds. Segregation and sexism means the same thing, whether or not is it colored by religious dogma or otherwise.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 01:06 AM   #27
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I understand where he is coming from, and the issue is being blown out of proportion. If he trains, then he need not work with a female. But for some people to compare that to sexism and racism, is wrong. Sexism and Racism are human traits that are usually either taught or heavily influenced by the media. In his case, it is a Directive from God, and obedience to God is tantamount to anyone's feelings. This type of accomodation is easy and wouldn't stir up any trouble.[b]

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 02:41 AM   #28
Michael Meister
Dojo: South Hetton
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 97
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

The most important question is, which adjustments would you have to make, and are you willing to make them? Talk to the guy about the problems that may arise (the practical sort, like a possible female instructor, the psyochological, as it is always possible, that people in the dojo wouldn't like such an arrangement). Ask him for his thought, and what he would do in your situation.
There is almost always room for compromise. Just find it. And only if this doesn't lead to a solution, comes everything else, including lawyers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 04:55 AM   #29
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 561
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
You might be able to choose who you train with - male or female, but you certainly can't choose what life throws at you. Learn to deal with it, or don't.
Doesn't this apply to the dojo/instructor/aikido practitioner as well. Here, life throws a man who doesn't want to train with women, at you. Your answer seems to be to not deal with it.
Quote:
How would he feel if the tables were turned - no one will train with him because he is not of the right color, sex and religion.
Isn't that exactly what you are proposing? His religion is part of the package - so he can't train? We won't discriminate on religion, as long as you don't actually live according to your religion?
Quote:
Turn the argument around. Does the religion consider female bodily contact in a martial context "unnecessary"? If it is, then it should apply to any body contact martial art and co-ed contact sport - not just aikido. The issue is not with aikido or the dojo.
I think it probably does apply to other contact sports and martial arts as well. That's not the point. The point is, as an aikido practitioner, are you going to deal with what life throws at you, or are you going to argue that what life throws at you has to change first before you are willing to deal with it?
Quote:
And it certainly has nothing to do with ideology or discrimination on religious grounds. Segregation and sexism means the same thing, whether or not is it colored by religious dogma or otherwise.
In other words, this man's religion is wrong? And that's the argument for not letting him train?

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 05:58 AM   #30
Karen Wolek
Dojo: Kingston Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 322
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I don't think it's such a big deal. Hey, if he shows up to a class with a female teacher or the class consists of mainly women, well, I guess HE has a decision to make. He can decide not to take that class.

In my dojo, there aren't a ton of women, so I don't think it would be too much of a burden on anybody, except the guy himself. It might make it difficult once he advances and can't participate in freestyle, etc... I'm certainly not going to sit out so he can practice, LOL.

To be honest, I don't want to work with someone who doesn't want to work with me. anyway.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 06:49 AM   #31
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

What about the inconsistencies such an example could present with Aikido's spiritual foundations?

I think if one's practice is about technical/physical things, then yeah, such a thing presents no problem. Let him workout, let him get in shape, let him learn some self-defense techniques, etc. But if one's practice is truly revolving around Osensei's call for Oneness and unification, etc., such a thing could present quite a contrast in the shape of the binary delineations it choose to uphold (according to how one wants to interpret "oneness" and "unification"). In a way, it could be a matter of two contrary worldviews coming into contact with each other - not merely a matter of "let's just workout".

There is only such much tenkaning one can do with when two contrasting worldviews come into contact with each other... Additionally, it may not be the dojo's role to "enlighten" the person to the vision of Osensei's worldview of Oneness and unification. Perhaps then it might be wise to be up front on the nature of these two worldviews - of them coming into contact. This might also be the line a lawyer can take when or should you concede that your dojo cannot accomodate him. If that turns out to the be the case, it might be nice to point him toward a dojo where the worldview of Osensei is not such a foundation for training - where he would surely be able to train in Aikido while having his own worldview remain a non-issue, etc.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 06:53 AM   #32
SmilingNage
Location: NJ
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 241
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

This is a really a matter for the dojo cho. Does he want to inconvenience his students by allowing a new student in that has these kind of restrictions. The non bowing isn't really an issue but not working with students,women in particular, creates a silent strain.

IMO,
Let him arrange for personal instruction.

But, I am not sure of any legal issues/consequences my solution would invoke being that it your dojo has public restraints on it. But ultimately, its a teacher to student relationship, will you accept him as your student. Its the Cho's right to accept or decline a student.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 07:12 AM   #33
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Its the Cho's right to accept or decline a student.
Exactly, and as Eric in post #7 did, explain that the dojo policy is we all practice together here, and let him make the choice.

If I go into a church/synagogue/mosque, I doubt if the priest/rabbi/father/imam, is going to start adjusting things to accommodate my particular idiosyncrasies, I would be expected to conform.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 07:17 AM   #34
Karen Wolek
Dojo: Kingston Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 322
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
If I go into a church/synagogue/mosque, I doubt if the priest/rabbi/father/imam, is going to start adjusting things to accommodate my particular idiosyncrasies, I would be expected to conform.
But a dojo isn't a church or place of worship.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 08:25 AM   #35
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Karen Wolek wrote:
But a dojo isn't a church or place of worship.
~insert a "yeah that" smilie~

A dojo isn't neccesarily a place of worship. If someone's particular dojo is then he needs to be told that "we all practice some form of buddhism/ shintoism here."

And physical training (good health) for him could be a very important spiritual goal to pursue as I believe it is called for in the Qu'ran. So I don't think he would lose the "spiritual value." He just wouldn't be following O'Sensei's teaching and if I recall correctly O'Sensei didn't require his students to practice his religion but rather encouraged them to find their own spirituality hence Chiba Sensei choosing to pursue Zen Buddhism. However, for this person, it's clearly Islam.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 08:50 AM   #36
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Karen Wolek wrote:
But a dojo isn't a church or place of worship.
Agreed, but it is still a place where humans congregate to practice their 'way'. Any 'organisation' has agreed rules that the 'members' abide by.
The only difference with a 'church' in respect to other 'organisations' is that the rules of the church are were written by men for men/women but attributed to a god. All other organisations have rules written by men/women for men/women, these rules can evolve over time.
The interesting thing with churches is that they also change the rules over time, depending on who's in charge at the time. God rarely gets consulted when the rules are altered. As far as I'm aware, celibacy for the catholic priestood was put in place around the 11th Century. Nothing to do with god, alot to do with the Pope at that time. The US branch of the Anglican church have caused a schism with the more conservative (and more populous) branch by allowing the ordination of homosexual Bishops.
So when I read in one of the posts above that the man in question in this thread is under a Directive from god, I wonder which of the mish mash of religious dogma is god made and which of it is man made, and therefore open to alteration.
So respect to all, and all should be free to worship whatever they choose.
If someone comes to an aikido dojo they are free to practice, if their beliefs restrict them that should be their issue, it should not impact on others who follow (worship?) the way of O Sensei - aikido is for everyone, and is to be practiced with no regards to race,creed,age or gender. One of the reasons you are more likely to find me on the mat than at an alter.

Aikido is not a religion and the dojo is not a church, thank god for that!

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 10:00 AM   #37
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

David beat me to it.
Good he did a better job at it as well.
Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
What about the inconsistencies such an example could present with Aikido's spiritual foundations?

I think if one's practice is about technical/physical things, then yeah, such a thing presents no problem. Let him workout, let him get in shape, let him learn some self-defense techniques, etc. But if one's practice is truly revolving around Osensei's call for Oneness and unification, etc., such a thing could present quite a contrast in the shape of the binary delineations it choose to uphold (according to how one wants to interpret "oneness" and "unification"). In a way, it could be a matter of two contrary worldviews coming into contact with each other - not merely a matter of "let's just workout".

There is only such much tenkaning one can do with when two contrasting worldviews come into contact with each other... Additionally, it may not be the dojo's role to "enlighten" the person to the vision of Osensei's worldview of Oneness and unification. Perhaps then it might be wise to be up front on the nature of these two worldviews - of them coming into contact. This might also be the line a lawyer can take when or should you concede that your dojo cannot accomodate him. If that turns out to the be the case, it might be nice to point him toward a dojo where the worldview of Osensei is not such a foundation for training - where he would surely be able to train in Aikido while having his own worldview remain a non-issue, etc.

dmv
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 12:19 PM   #38
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I think if one's practice is about technical/physical things, then yeah, such a thing presents no problem. Let him workout, let him get in shape, let him learn some self-defense techniques, etc. But if one's practice is truly revolving around Osensei's call for Oneness and unification, etc., such a thing could present quite a contrast in the shape of the binary delineations it choose to uphold (according to how one wants to interpret "oneness" and "unification"). In a way, it could be a matter of two contrary worldviews coming into contact with each other - not merely a matter of "let's just workout".
There is no binary delineation - the prohibitions against physical contact in Judaism and Islam apply equally to both men and women. For that matter, Morihei Ueshiba endorsed binary delineations such as different standards of dress (ie, the hakama) for men and women, so the "oneness" argument seems, to me, not to hold too much water.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 12:29 PM   #39
"Observing"
IP Hash: 8c934b07
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

We had a muslim girl in a headscarf come and train at our dojo, she didn't seem to be so conservative as to be prohibited from practicing with men, and she had the support of her family to be there, but she still only lasted a couple of days. I'm wondering if the touching issue did turn out to be a problem. Our classes are about 80% men on average (varies from 50% to 90% on any given day).
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 12:30 PM   #40
"Observing again"
IP Hash: 8c934b07
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Can women practice aikido in countries like Iran or Egypt?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 01:58 PM   #41
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
There is no binary delineation - the prohibitions against physical contact in Judaism and Islam apply equally to both men and women. For that matter, Morihei Ueshiba endorsed binary delineations such as different standards of dress (ie, the hakama) for men and women, so the "oneness" argument seems, to me, not to hold too much water.

Best,

Chris

Well, like I said, it depends upon how one wants to define "oneness" and "unification."

The binary delineation is not between what men can do and what women cannot, or vice versa. The binary delineation is what men can do with men but cannot do with women; what women can do with women but not with men.

Under certain understandings of "oneness" and "unification," the idea that touch should be delineated universally according to gender lines (because of a theory on sexuality that understands sex one way and not another) could be seen as divisive and not as unifying. In simple language, it is matter of being able to say, "Hey, if you do not start getting all sexed up when you touch your own gender, please continue that same level of behavior with me as well." In another way, from some views of oneness, such a request is a call to be seen beyond one's gender and definitely beyond one's sexuality (to bare witness to the eternal One of which one is a part of, etc. - that kind of thing).

In other words, it seems to me, if you have a dojo that professes a certain notion of unification/oneness, then you might very well not be the place for someone to maintain strong gender distinctions - particularly those that are related to heterosexuality. Moving toward strong gender delineations might very well be moving in the opposite direction of what you are seeking to accomplish spiritually. At a technical level, this would be no different from someone showing up and asking, "Yeah, I was wondering if I could train here, but I'm into boxing, so I'd like to wear these gloves here and jab at you every time you come in instead of doing that ikkyo thing." If you are a dojo where everyone trains with everyone, and if that practice is part of your spiritual cultivations, then that has to be respected - by both parties involved - in my opinion.

Again, if one just does techniques at their dojo, as this person may very well want to as well, then none of this is an issue - no more than someone saying, "Hey, I don't like training with that person, so I'm not going to train with them anymore." I have never been in a dojo where I have not seen that happen, and thus the formation of some "clicks," etc. In my experience, ours is the only dojo where that kind of behavior (click formation, avoiding a training partner, etc.) is seen as going against the spiritual training we are trying to practice. In our place, that kind of attitude (just mentioned above) is unacceptable and folks are expected to reconcile both the obvious grudge and the underlying supports that we see as being related to fear, pride, and ignorance.

On a different topic - Chris, I was under the impression that Osensei had everyone wear their hakama (that's what I always heard) - had no idea he had his male students not wearing them. Where did you hear about that one? (if you don't mind sharing)

my opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 02:51 PM   #42
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
On a different topic - Chris, I was under the impression that Osensei had everyone wear their hakama (that's what I always heard) - had no idea he had his male students not wearing them. Where did you hear about that one? (if you don't mind sharing)
Generally, yes, but after the war when hakama were limited to yudansha (even in Iwama, according to Morihiro Saito) he made a specific exception for women. According to Koichi Tohei (in "Ki no Kakuritsu") this was because the sight of women's legs flying around the dojo distracted him.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 04:46 PM   #43
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

A couple of times in my life I have been involved with groups which said "We have a mandate to include everyone. We can accomodate their special needs, and that's what we'll do."

Sometimes this works out okay, but in several cases it turned out to mean "People who ask loudly for accomodation get what they want, and people who are not so loud get pushed aside." The most awful experience I have had with this involved a group that went to extreme measures to manage and accomodate one member's bad behavior, and eventually lost numerous members because they had been verbally and physically harassed. I was one of the leaders involved, and the outcome shames me to this day. We thought we were being inclusive and fair but we sure weren't inclusive of the people who got hurt.

Whether a dojo can accomodate men who will not train with women is for that dojo to decide. I think it's naive to take, from the outside, the view that *of course* refusing to make a requested accomodation is a sign of bad teaching. The teacher has a vision of how the dojo works, and they have the right to refuse changes that move too far from their vision, or that impede the teaching of their other students too much.

Perhaps I am touchy on this point having been badly burned by it, but I think that "We have a mandate to include everyone" is a dangerous philosophy, loving on the surface but potentially very damaging. "We have a mandate to include everyone we can", okay, but judgement is required to decide who we can accomodate without losing hold of our purpose.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 04:51 PM   #44
Aiki LV
Dojo: VEGAS VALLEY AIKIDO
Location: Las Vegas/Henderson
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 73
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

IMHO, can't & won't are two very different things. If he can't train with a women due to a religious law or rule that is one thing. If he just strictly won't because of a certain attitude or idea he holds about women due to his upbringing, experiences, etc. that is a different situation all together. Sometimes with certain religious traditions it might be a combination of both. I would talk to the guy, if you feel it won't cause a problem let him train, but just like you do with everyone else that is new watch him. See how he interacts with people both male & female. If he is just like anyone else except he only trains with men, no big deal. On the other side of coin if he can't except or has a problem with the equality of all people in the dojo then you might have a problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 05:32 PM   #45
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
Doesn't this apply to the dojo/instructor/aikido practitioner as well. Here, life throws a man who doesn't want to train with women, at you. Your answer seems to be to not deal with it.
I have had women enquire who expressly refuse to train with men. I run a small class, mostly young males 8-17. My wife is the only female on the mat. The choice is theirs. 10 out of 10 they don't show up.

Quote:
Isn't that exactly what you are proposing? His religion is part of the package - so he can't train? We won't discriminate on religion, as long as you don't actually live according to your religion?
Nor do I discriminate on any criteria. You come to train in a martial art. Sex, race, color, creed, social status has nothing to do with what we are training in. David's post echos my intention - albeit better. I am just having some difficulty saying this in a more "politically correct" fashion.

Quote:
I think it probably does apply to other contact sports and martial arts as well. That's not the point. The point is, as an aikido practitioner, are you going to deal with what life throws at you, or are you going to argue that what life throws at you has to change first before you are willing to deal with it?
In other words, this man's religion is wrong? And that's the argument for not letting him train?
I don't think I ever said that. All I'm suggesting is, deferrment to higher spiritual directives (along the lines of what Mark Freeman said) as an excuse for requiring accommodation is irrelevant to the training itself. He can take it whichever way he wants. I'm not saying his religion is wrong. Nor am I saying that he cannot train.

His parameter for training is to train with males only. And my parameters for training is you get to train with whoever is on the mat. Whether he trains or not, is his choice.

Big difference to what you're reading into what I'm saying.

As an aside, the laws regarding opposite sex contact is exactly the point that David raised. The argument is the same as the religious law pertaining to alcohol. Deferrment to higher spiritual directives is merely insurance against the potential for temptation, as opposed to exercising self-control - which is what martial arts is really about. Whether that's right or wrong is largely irrelevant - martial arts (in the true sense of the word) and war does not discriminate, and neither do I.


Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 06:49 PM   #46
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Freaky! Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Nor do I discriminate on any criteria. You come to train in a martial art. Sex, race, color, creed, social status has nothing to do with what we are training in. David's post echos my intention - albeit better. I am just having some difficulty saying this in a more "politically correct" fashion.
Political correctness is not always the best way to go

Quote:
His parameter for training is to train with males only. And my parameters for training is you get to train with whoever is on the mat. Whether he trains or not, is his choice.
You've hit the nail right on the head Ignatius, thanks.

I liked your post David, good tenkan and a nice contrast with Ignatiu's irimi!

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 06:49 PM   #47
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Accepting what life throws at you sometimes means saying No to it.

If a student says, I want to train but I can only train between eight and nine in the morning, then you have to ask, can I teach between eight and nine in the morning? Do I want to? And sometimes the answer is, quite reasonably, no.

For any martial arts school there will be a point where you say no to a student. Each school has to find that point for itself. Arguments that there is no such point--that you can or should say yes to all students--strike me as self-evidently wicked. They deny that your school, or your life as a teacher, has value and is worth preserving.

"I want to train here, but I want to learn karate, not aikido."

"I want to train here, but I only want to be nage, never uke."

"I want to train here, but I don't want any ki tests ever."

"I want to train here, but I won't abide by your safety rules."

"I want to train here, but I disagree with your philosophy." (To some extent I am in this situation with my own school, and I would support my sensei asking me to leave if she felt the problem were sufficiently severe--so far she has not.)

At some point the line has to be drawn, and then it comes back to individual judgement and the circumstances of the particular school.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 06:53 PM   #48
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
At some point the line has to be drawn, and then it comes back to individual judgement and the circumstances of the particular school.

Mary Kaye
Of course it does (and nobody said otherwise). Still, as I said, this is, IMO, much more of a molehill than a mountain.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 07:11 PM   #49
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
"I want to train here, but I disagree with your philosophy." (To some extent I am in this situation with my own school, and I would support my sensei asking me to leave if she felt the problem were sufficiently severe--so far she has not.)
Good post Mary, good points.

Would it be impudent to ask, what the philosophical differences are? I completely understand if you don't want to go into it.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 07:55 PM   #50
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 561
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
His parameter for training is to train with males only. And my parameters for training is you get to train with whoever is on the mat. Whether he trains or not, is his choice.
I don't actually have any problem with this. I have a private teaching practice, and I have to make decisions about how far I want to accomodate my students as well.

I guess the thing is, that to me a religious belief or custom or choice that a person can just leave aside when it's more convenient to do so, wouldn't be worth much. And so in that way for me a persons religion is as much a part of that person as their arm would be, as ridiculous as I might think their beliefs were. And asking them to change such would be the equivalent of asking someone to cut of their arm in order to train. Excuses for the rather dramatic example.

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aliveness in Martial Arts Video Clip Richard Langridge Open Discussions 60 08-10-2006 10:28 PM
Am i missing something?? aikigirl10 General 119 04-20-2006 01:07 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 06:20 PM
Aikido and pregnancy Anat Amitay General 5 03-17-2002 12:49 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:16 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate