Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Anonymous

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-20-2009, 02:19 AM   #301
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I show up alone every single day to the dojo would that excuse someone from raping me in the locker room where I change?
WTF?
No, sorry - having someone decline training with you due to religious restrictions is NOT the same as being raped in the locker room. I would highly suggest that you talk to someone with experience at a rape crisis center if you think otherwise.

I don't think so. So why would that kind of logic apply here?

Quote:
When she shows up for a morning class and is the one of three people on the mat; she is the only woman and the other two have religious restrictions, how the heck is her training not affected? It's not by her choice -- it's by theirs to practice their view of their religion. You can not admit here in this circumstance that her training was adversely affected?
No. If the two others did not show up at all, she would still be doing the same thing - practicing her stick work alone. If those two guys *don't* have religious restrictions, great! Three people get to train. But someone without religious restrictions is not going to put them aside based on 'Sensei Says.'

Quote:
She pays dues like everyone else. Imagine showing up to class a two or three practices in a row and NOT BE ABLE TO TRAIN. And what will you say to yourself?
"Damn, I need to find another dojo."
not
"Damn, these guys really need to accommodate me."
Because if the people with religious restrictions outnumber those without, it is the latter that are being 'accommodated.'

Quote:
You can still train with a stinky, loud, flirty opinionated person.
Yeah, but you don't want to.

Quote:
It's his choice to follow an orthodox belief system not hers. And by his choice to follow it he will experience consequences because of it.
I absolutely agree - for example, if there's one religious restriction guy (RR) and one no restriction guy (NR), the woman shouldn't have to sit out and never get to train; NR, to be fair, should train with both and RR will have to spend some time sitting out. But the woman will not get to train with RR no matter what happens - whether accommodations are made, or not.

Quote:
Just try instructing a small class with the person in it - you can not physically touch him or use him as uke.
His loss.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 02:29 AM   #302
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
You are not asking for Sensei not to admit them because of religious beliefs, but because you dislike them.
Alejandro, I don't think that's true. BTDT isn't saying that she dislikes RR people; she's saying that she doesn't want to so much as twitch a whisker to accommodate what she sees as discriminatory religious practices. Since the religious practices in question are in fact discriminatory against her as a woman, it's hard to claim that she doesn't have a case - just that maybe she's being a bit extreme in her refusal to accommodate special needs.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 02:44 AM   #303
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Why can't you see throught your PC blinders. After Fort Hood, I'd think you would.
Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Now you're making it look like Alejandro was right about you just hating Islam. The guy at Fort Hood was literally certifiable, and if extreme religiosity makes a deluded schizophrenic more likely to to on a rampage, it's not even close to limited to Islam. Remember that guy who killed the women in the gym? Motivated by Christianity. Likewise Timothy McVeigh, the guy who shot all of those little Amish girls, and the Virginia Tech shooter.

Quote:
A woman's right to train in a pluralistic dojo is being adversely affected and you'd rather discriminate against here than someone who has unreasonable expectations.
As long as the RR guy takes most of the lost training on himself, you shouldn't complain so loudly. He's losing a hell of a lot more training due to his handicap than you are.

Quote:
...read through the previous postings by some of the folks who live in Islamic countries. They do NOT accomodate those who want mixed training, one of the previous postes even said that. But that's okay?
...That would be because they're the MAJORITY there. No, I don't think it's ok. At all. I also don't think cutting off people's heads with dull knives is ok, and I'm not going to start doing it just because they are.

Quote:
But I'm saying that we should only accomodate to the extent that it does not effect other people's training.
I would only agree to the extent that we should accomodate people with RR's whose problems do not affect other people's training any further than any other problematic, but accommodated, social issue (such as stinkiness) does. Sometimes the guy is so stinky that you sit out rather than train with him. Should we kick him off the mat? Sometimes the guy or gal is so out of shape that he or she has to stand aside for a moment, and nobody gets to train with him or her when that happens. Should we kick them off the mat?

Quote:
It's only discrimination if you don't accomodate the person with religious restrictions. BUT those accomodations must be REASONABLE.
What we're trying to hash out here, I guess, is just what exactly "reasonable" means in this case.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 02:38 PM   #304
gixxergary
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 13
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Im curious of what context the religious belief of not coming in contact with a woman stems from. Is it based on the belief that his wife is the only woman he is allowed to touch, or is it based on, that a women is not superior, or equal to him, thus he is not allowed to train with or contact them. Just curious, i am ingnorant to alot of religions.

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 02:00 AM   #305
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Gary Gauger wrote: View Post
Im curious of what context the religious belief of not coming in contact with a woman stems from. Is it based on the belief that his wife is the only woman he is allowed to touch, or is it based on, that a women is not superior, or equal to him, thus he is not allowed to train with or contact them. Just curious, i am ingnorant to alot of religions.

Gary

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/21183/touching%20women

Last edited by Nafis Zahir : 12-22-2009 at 02:03 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 05:51 AM   #306
gixxergary
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 13
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

thank you
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 05:17 PM   #307
"Been there done that"
IP Hash: 4cce3007
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Alejandro, I don't think that's true. BTDT isn't saying that she dislikes RR people; she's saying that she doesn't want to so much as twitch a whisker to accommodate what she sees as discriminatory religious practices. Since the religious practices in question are in fact discriminatory against her as a woman, it's hard to claim that she doesn't have a case - just that maybe she's being a bit extreme in her refusal to accommodate special needs.
Lorien, you do not need to speak for me or explain my opinions for me. You do not need to patronize either. Thank you.

I set forth a strong argument and the best you can do is to paint me as the extremist? I think not. Accomodating the extreme is being extreme in and of itself. Extreme tolerance is not the answer to this problem. It is the problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 05:40 PM   #308
"Been there done that..."
IP Hash: 4cce3007
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Now you're making it look like Alejandro was right about you just hating Islam. The guy at Fort Hood was literally certifiable, and if extreme religiosity makes a deluded schizophrenic more likely to to on a rampage, it's not even close to limited to Islam. Remember that guy who killed the women in the gym? Motivated by Christianity. Likewise Timothy McVeigh, the guy who shot all of those little Amish girls, and the Virginia Tech shooter.
Actually, Major Hasan was not certifiable. He had never served overseas and did not have PTSD like some people would like for you to think. He was actually being investigated by the FBI. He had given a power point about Muslims can't serve in the military during a medical conferences when he should have been giving a power point on a medical topic. If you dive further into this you will see that he did consider himself a Soldier of Allah and that he was doing this as an act of terrorism. He didn't go into a shopping mall or a school. He did this on a military facility and according to Islam this is a legitimate target. People were too afraid of doing anything because they were afraid of being accused of religious discrimination, thus taking PCism too far.

Quote:
As long as the RR guy takes most of the lost training on himself, you shouldn't complain so loudly. He's losing a hell of a lot more training due to his handicap than you are.
This would be so if the dojo was more than half women. And, yes, I will still complain loudly even though you don't like it. Sorry, if your offended.

Quote:
...That would be because they're the MAJORITY there. No, I don't think it's ok. At all. I also don't think cutting off people's heads with dull knives is ok, and I'm not going to start doing it just because they are.
But yet, you still defend the belief system. The same belief system that justifies not training with women also justifes them not only not accomodating minorities but also burning their churches, throwing acid on women, and cutting off people's heads. I'm talking about the Whabbist view of Islam where this train of thought and justification of this belief begins.

Quote:
I would only agree to the extent that we should accomodate people with RR's whose problems do not affect other people's training any further than any other problematic, but accommodated, social issue (such as stinkiness) does. Sometimes the guy is so stinky that you sit out rather than train with him. Should we kick him off the mat? Sometimes the guy or gal is so out of shape that he or she has to stand aside for a moment, and nobody gets to train with him or her when that happens. Should we kick them off the mat?

What we're trying to hash out here, I guess, is just what exactly "reasonable" means in this case.
I already explained what is reasonable. Go re-read my previous posts. If you can't figure it out then I just can't keep explaining myself over and over.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 07:14 PM   #309
"Been there Done that"
IP Hash: 4cce3007
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
WTF?
No, sorry - having someone decline training with you due to religious restrictions is NOT the same as being raped in the locker room. I would highly suggest that you talk to someone with experience at a rape crisis center if you think otherwise.

I don't think so. So why would that kind of logic apply here?
I have worked with rape victims. If you are familiar with working in a rape crisis center then you are familiar with the notion of "blame the victim mentality." You are demonstrating that in this case.

I am attempting to illustrate that you are blaming the woman in this case for being discrimnated against just like people like to blame a rape victim for being raped. You are offering up the same logic:

Your Logic: It must be her fault that she was discriminated against because she showed up to the dojo alone.

Blame the Victim Logic: It is the fault of the rape victim for being raped because she went to the bar alone.

Quote:
No. If the two others did not show up at all, she would still be doing the same thing - practicing her stick work alone. If those two guys *don't* have religious restrictions, great! Three people get to train. But someone without religious restrictions is not going to put them aside based on 'Sensei Says.'
No. She would get to train with the instructor. Yes, the instructor would train with her when his fellow bretheren were not in class.

Quote:
"Damn, I need to find another dojo."
not
"Damn, these guys really need to accommodate me."
Because if the people with religious restrictions outnumber those without, it is the latter that are being 'accommodated.'
You are just wrong here. Despite this issue, we train at a pretty darn good dojo. I'm not going to leave to train at a podunk hole in the wall dojo with mediocre instruction because 3 people out of 120 do want to not train with me. That's just ridiculous.

The men also have another accomodation. The men with RR already have a place where they can train while applying their belief systems. They have there own aikido club at their mosque, where they set their own rules. Guess what one of their rules are? Women are not allowed to practice aikido at all.

And they are more than welcome to practice this in their mosque. They are more than welcome to apply the laws of Sharia in their own mosques and homes. But just not at my dojo.

And, you were already told by someone in this thread where those where RR outnumber those without RR - they do NOT accomodate those without RR.

Quote:
Yeah, but you don't want to.
You see I'm talking about legal objective reasonableness not just what a particular person subjectively believes as reasonable. Especially, how this might apply at a dojo facing possibly losing their 501(C)(3) status or facing a religious discirmination lawsuit. It is reasonable to expect a sensei to tell stinky person to clean up. And, they can't lose 501(c)(3) over it. Which makes stinky person a bad example. Same with overweight person. And it would be reasonable for a sensei to tell them to get in shape and work on their stamina. Cleanliness is part of the etiquette when you join a dojo. Getting in good shape is part of expectation of joining a dojo.

In aikido men and women train together with a lot of physical contact. It is part of the expectation of the training. And when you say I can not partake in that training because someone else with extreme religious views doesn't want to be discriminated against then I am being discriminated against, too. And that is not reasonable. A school should not feel compelled to discriminate against one group (women) in favor of another group (extreme Islamic beliefs). Thus, expectations of this is unreasonable.

Quote:
I absolutely agree - for example, if there's one religious restriction guy (RR) and one no restriction guy (NR), the woman shouldn't have to sit out and never get to train; NR, to be fair, should train with both and RR will have to spend some time sitting out. But the woman will not get to train with RR no matter what happens - whether accommodations are made, or not.
Actually there are other choices. RR guy can decide join in the training with his female partners. Or, RR guy can also choose to train at his mosque dojo where his views can not just be fully accomodated but fully practiced.

What RR people are not telling you is that they can ritually cleanse themselves afterwards and that it would not be considered halal (forbidden) to train with their female partners. Actually it's considered haram (allowable) if they live in a country where their religious beliefs do not dominate. So when they are in the minority they are allowed to touch women so long as they do the ritual cleansing later on in the day. A conservative, but not extreme, Muslim would do this. A modernist Muslim would not be bothered at all. It is only when a person who holds a more extreme view will they consider it halal to touch women in the first place.

Quote:
His loss.
Yes, it is, but it is also the loss of the other students when you can't use him as a demo uke. I prefer to use all students in class as a demo ukes. Thus as an instructor I was affected.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 07:41 PM   #310
Nathan Wallace
 
Nathan Wallace's Avatar
Dojo: VA tenshinkai
Location: northern VA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 67
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I seriously doubt the problem here is inadvertant contact, such as collisions and the like. The man lives in the real world, no doubt he has inadvertant contact with women all the time. The issue here is simply one of training with women.

If there are no female instructors, and class size is not an issue, then I'm with Chris Li on this. If there are female instructors, or classes do tend to be small, then obviously his special needs are not within the dojo's ability to accomodate.
I think its hilarious you suggest he leave his religious beliefs at the door and not just not take the class. Restricting your training to one sex is not true Aikido though they may try to call it such. However I would not abandon the principles of Aikido or my own faith so the best thing is the two stay the hell away from each other. If your religion has restrictions that affect Aikido training don't train in Aikido. Simple.

"I would only agree to the extent that we should accomodate people with RR's whose problems do not affect other people's training any further than any other problematic, but accommodated, social issue (such as stinkiness) does. Sometimes the guy is so stinky that you sit out rather than train with him. Should we kick him off the mat? Sometimes the guy or gal is so out of shape that he or she has to stand aside for a moment, and nobody gets to train with him or her when that happens. Should we kick them off the mat?

What we're trying to hash out here, I guess, is just what exactly "reasonable" means in this case."

I would absolutely expel someone from my dojo who was a disruption because of their own faults. When we are training we are training not catching our breathe, when coming in to practice bathe your self and brush your teeth and trim your finger nails and keep a clean uniform. I expect an effort and and apology when expectations aren't met. However I am very stubborn and probably a little off my nut.

Northern Virginia Tenshinkai Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 03:59 PM   #311
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Actually, Major Hasan was not certifiable. He had never served overseas and did not have PTSD like some people would like for you to think.
I didn't say I thought that Hasan, or any of the other religious nutcases I cited, had PTSD. I know all about his past and his poor work history, etc. I think he was schizophrenic. All of the other religious nutcases I cited also thought they were going after religious targets; the Virginia Tech shooter saw himself as a christ-like figure, and the health club shooter decided that he was 'pre-forgiven' for his actions, and so could do whatever he wanted.

Quote:
Sorry, if your offended.[sic]
I'm not offended. I'm disagreeing.
You're disparaging religious people, and I'm an atheist - there's nothing for me to take offense at.

Quote:
But yet, you still defend the belief system.
No. I'm saying that they should be allowed to train, with limited accommodation. That is all.

Quote:
The same belief system that justifies not training with women also justifes them {snip list of extremists atrocities}.
By that reasoning, we should close all dojos to people of all religions (and atheists too) because some of them use their belief systems to bulldoze people's houses, throw harmless monks and nuns in prison and torture them, burn children as witches, wage various wars, etc. We should all just stay home and practice stick from video instructions.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I have worked with rape victims. If you are familiar with working in a rape crisis center then you are familiar with the notion of "blame the victim mentality." You are demonstrating that in this case.
Excusé?
Whom am I blaming, and for what? I'm not saying that it's women's fault that some men have RRs. I'm not agreeing with the reasoning behind the RRs.

All I'm saying is that humans are difficult to work with all the time, and we are constantly making accommodations for each other. Mild RRs (such as would allow a man to train in a dojo with women, and treat them respectfully as fellow human beings, but not train with them) are just another facet of humanity that we find annoying, but tolerate in each other because we also have facets that others find annoying.

Quote:
Your Logic: It must be her fault that she was discriminated against because she showed up to the dojo alone.
Huh?
When did I say that it was anyone's fault? I'm saying that she's not going to get to train, either way. It's not her fault - it's just the way the social dynamic would work out in the situation you've been describing.

Quote:
Blame the Victim Logic: It is the fault of the rape victim for being raped because she went to the bar alone.
Is this how you're trying to justify your comparison of allowing men with RRs on the mat to being raped in the locker room?

Quote:
No. She would get to train with the instructor. Yes, the instructor would train with her when his fellow bretheren were not in class.
She gets to train with the instructor when they're there, too - she just doesn't get as much of his or her attention.

Quote:
You are just wrong here. Despite this issue, we train at a pretty darn good dojo. I'm not going to leave to train at a podunk hole in the wall dojo with mediocre instruction because 3 people out of 120 do want to not train with me. That's just ridiculous.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. You're claiming that you're being drastically harmed because "...3 people out of 120..." do not want to train with you. Suffer.

Quote:
They have there own aikido club at their mosque, where they set their own rules. Guess what one of their rules are? Women are not allowed to practice aikido at all.
Have you ever asked them why they also want to train at your dojo?

Quote:
You see I'm talking about legal objective reasonableness not just what a particular person subjectively believes as reasonable.
And, of course, your opinion is sooo much more objective and reasonable than mine.

Quote:
Cleanliness is part of the etiquette when you join a dojo. Getting in good shape is part of expectation of joining a dojo.
So is training with everyone and bowing to the shomen.

Quote:
A school should not feel compelled to discriminate against one group (women) in favor of another group (extreme Islamic beliefs). Thus, expectations of this is unreasonable.
I agree; however, I'm not sure that disaccommodating one group slightly, (especially when there are 117 other people willing to train with them) so that another group can benefit greatly, quite matches your 1:1 setup of discrimination above.

Quote:
RR guy can decide join in the training with his female partners.
No, he can't. I'm an atheist, so I do think that religion is largely a matter of choice - but I don't expect people to just drop their entire belief system so that they can train in my dojo. Especially when they come from a religion whose fundamentalist sect (and that is what we're talking about, here) says that apostates should be killed by their own families.

Quote:
Or, RR guy can also choose to train at his mosque dojo where his views can not just be fully accomodated but fully practiced.
Again, have you asked these guys *why* they don't do that? Maybe your dojo is better. Maybe the hours at your dojo are the only ones these guys can work with.

Quote:
What RR people are not telling you is that they can ritually cleanse themselves afterwards and that it would not be considered halal (forbidden) to train with their female partners. Actually it's considered haram (allowable) if they live in a country where their religious beliefs do not dominate. So when they are in the minority they are allowed to touch women so long as they do the ritual cleansing later on in the day. A conservative, but not extreme, Muslim would do this. A modernist Muslim would not be bothered at all. It is only when a person who holds a more extreme view will they consider it halal to touch women in the first place.
If the only issue for these guys is having to undergo ritual cleansing later (and if that's as simple as it sounds), then yes: they should be the ones to bend a little. Since the only Muslims I've known personally were of the liberal stripe, I don't have any knowledge of that specific issue.

Quote:
...it is also the loss of the other students when you can't use him as a demo uke.
And, as I said before, if he wasn't allowed to train at all, the other students still wouldn't get to see him used as a demo uke.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2009, 04:03 PM   #312
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Paul Wallace wrote: View Post
I would absolutely expel someone from my dojo who was a disruption because of their own faults. When we are training we are training not catching our breathe, when coming in to practice bathe your self and brush your teeth and trim your finger nails and keep a clean uniform. I expect an effort and and apology when expectations aren't met. However I am very stubborn and probably a little off my nut.
Your dojo, your rules. As long as you're equal-opportunity in your discrimination, I don't think anyone can say that you're being unfairly discriminatory.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 05:56 PM   #313
"Beenthere..donethat"
IP Hash: a5e4cb60
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
I didn't say I thought that Hasan, or any of the other religious nutcases I cited, had PTSD. I know all about his past and his poor work history, etc. I think he was schizophrenic. All of the other religious nutcases I cited also thought they were going after religious targets; the Virginia Tech shooter saw himself as a christ-like figure, and the health club shooter decided that he was 'pre-forgiven' for his actions, and so could do whatever he wanted.
Quote:
You're disparaging religious people, and I'm an atheist - there's nothing for me to take offense at.
So, now I'm disparaging someone's religion? Oh, puh-leaze. Would you defend Christianity or Judaism like this? or just Islam?

Regarding Major Hassan, the biggest difference between him and the other people you mention is that he is the only one who is actually acting according to a proper interpretation of Islam. The thing with radical Islam is that it is not contrary to what the major Islamic scholars interpret as the proper practice of Islam. However, the others had very skewed views of their own religious beliefs and are acting contrary to the religion which they just happened to belong.

I suggest you seriously look up Major Hasan and his religious beliefs - not just his employment history. He does not have schizophrenia. (I mentioned PTSD because some have used that as an excuse for his actions as well.) Google his power point presentation. It's very revealing. He was rather sane when he prepared it. He is not concocting his own view of his religion like the others who go postal in our nation.

I am not disparaging Islam by saying that the extremist views of Islam actually condone what Mr. Hasan did. He did not misinterpret Islam. The extremist views of Islam are not twisted versions of the Koran, the Hadith and Sharia Law. He was not someone going postal and just happened to follow a particular religion (like the others you mentioned).

He actually took his actions because Islam justifies violent jihad - Holy War - against U.S. soldiers. (Again, look at his Power Point presentation. He said it right in there.) Also, it was reported that Major Hassan yelled "Allahu Akbar" (God is great) before he started shooting. He considered himself a "Soldier of Allah" (It was on his business card). These are the words that Islamic terroists use. These words are not evidence of a misperception of reality, paranoia or bizarre delusions. They are a reflection of actual properly held radical Islamic beliefs.

It just that people are too afraid to say something critical of Islam, even an extreme view of the religion and people hold back and remain quiet. That is what I mean that we need to cut out the PCism regarding radical Islam.

Quote:
No. I'm saying that they should be allowed to train, with limited accommodation. That is all.
That is fine so long is it does not affect my training. They are welcome not to bow because it does not affect my training. I had said that over and over, but you conveniently ignore that point. However, aikido is a martial art where the sexes train together, and it is reasonable to expect all members in our Western society to train together whether male or female.

Quote:
By that reasoning, we should close all dojos to people of all religions (and atheists too) because some of them use their belief systems to bulldoze people's houses, throw harmless monks and nuns in prison and torture them, burn children as witches, wage various wars, etc. We should all just stay home and practice stick from video instructions.
This is called classic slippery slope reasoning. I don't care what someone believes so long as their belief does not interfer with my training.

Quote:
Whom am I blaming, and for what? I'm not saying that it's women's fault that some men have RRs. I'm not agreeing with the reasoning behind the RRs.
...AND...
Quote:
When did I say that it was anyone's fault? I'm saying that she's not going to get to train, either way. It's not her fault - it's just the way the social dynamic would work out in the situation you've been describing.
...AND...
Quote:
Is this how you're trying to justify your comparison of allowing men with RRs on the mat to being raped in the locker room?
Yes, I am justified in using the comparison. Often times people blame women for being raped for going someplace alone. You are trying to justify a woman getting excluded from training because she showed up someplace alone. Yes, I find that as very offensive especially in this example where the women is showing up to a class with 3:1 or 4:1 ratio RR to women. She felt excluded and felt intimidated by the situation. It should not have occurred.

Yes, you are blaming the woman for the RR of the others because she showed up to the dojo alone. You stated in a previous post:
Quote:
In your second case, it's not that she'd have two people to train with that she otherwise wouldn't, it's that she'd show up at the dojo alone.
In order to support your position that the woman in question was not being affected by the "accomodation" of the RR you support your contention with the clause that she showed up to the dojo alone. Nope. That logic does not work. She still does not get to train when she otherwise would have if people without RR were there for those morning classes.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that humans are difficult to work with all the time, and we are constantly making accommodations for each other. Mild RRs (such as would allow a man to train in a dojo with women, and treat them respectfully as fellow human beings, but not train with them) are just another facet of humanity that we find annoying, but tolerate in each other because we also have facets that others find annoying.
Yes, humans are difficult to work with, but accomodating others is a two way street. I accomodate someone and they in return accommodate me. However, the situations here is not a two way street - especially when radical Islam is invovled. It's only going one direction.

However, your statement that these restrictions are mild is the really the root of the problem. You believe that not training with women is a mild religious restriction. It's simply not. Not touching women in any form in Islam is actually a radical interpretation of Islam. It is not mild. I am not misinterpreting Islam, but rather I am describing a radical practice of Islam. It is an extreme practice. We have modernist Muslims in the dojo and they do not practice this. The prohibition against touching women is found in the hadith and Sharia Law, and it's enforcement is practiced in countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afganistan. The reason is that it is born out of the Wahhabist interpretation of Islam - which is a practice of strict adherence to a Sharia Law. Please Goggle "Wahhabi" and "Sharia Law".

Quote:
She gets to train with the instructor when they're there, too - she just doesn't get as much of his or her attention.
No, she doesn't. The instructor was also Muslim. When the students with the RR came he would not train with her. However, when they were not there he would. He being more of a modernist would appease the more radical by accomodating them and excluding the female student to the extent that she had no one to train with.

Quote:
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. You're claiming that you're being drastically harmed because "...3 people out of 120..." do not want to train with you. Suffer.
LOL Well, it would not be an issue if I got to train with 120 people all at one time, now would it? Like I said before, the biggest problem was when we had particularly small classes in the early mornings with an average of 2 - 5 people or when we did randori/jiyuwaza or when I taught. Most class sizes when this was an issue was with about 8 people in a class, our class sizes do not usally get bigger than 12. That is enough to affect one's ability to train.

Quote:
Have you ever asked them why they also want to train at your dojo?
...AND...
Quote:
Again, have you asked these guys *why* they don't do that? Maybe your dojo is better. Maybe the hours at your dojo are the only ones these guys can work with.
Yes. They want to be ranked in the association to which we belong. They want the credibility that comes with the name of our head instructor.

Quote:
And, of course, your opinion is sooo much more objective and reasonable than mine.
Yes, actually, I have my B.A. in International Studies with a focus in Middle East an Islam's role in the world. I also spent four years on my own accord studying Islam in consideration of converting to it; however, I did not. I have a depth of knowledge regarding the religion, and I also have a law degree so I have an understanding as to legal requirements regarding religious discrimination.

Quote:
So is training with everyone and bowing to the shomen.
However the stinky person is not part of a protected class of person that 501(c)(3)s and For-Profit dojos are prohibited from discriminating against. Allowing an accomodation to bowing to the shomen can be a reasonable accomodation - it does not affect my training.

Quote:
I agree; however, I'm not sure that disaccommodating one group slightly, (especially when there are 117 other people willing to train with them) so that another group can benefit greatly, quite matches your 1:1 setup of discrimination above.
Like I said before it was during the early morning classes and it was more like a 3:1 or 4:1 ration of RR to female. Not very welcoming now is it?

Quote:
No, he can't. I'm an atheist, so I do think that religion is largely a matter of choice - but I don't expect people to just drop their entire belief system so that they can train in my dojo. Especially when they come from a religion whose fundamentalist sect (and that is what we're talking about, here) says that apostates should be killed by their own families.
...AND...
Quote:
If the only issue for these guys is having to undergo ritual cleansing later (and if that's as simple as it sounds), then yes: they should be the ones to bend a little. Since the only Muslims I've known personally were of the liberal stripe, I don't have any knowledge of that specific issue.
They wouldn't be dropping their entire belief system at all. They can do the ritual purification afterwards and still be in accordance with their radical Islamic beliefs. (They just don't want you to know otherwise.) And, yes, they can bend a little. One of the four actually has chosen to do this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2010, 04:38 PM   #314
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
So, now I'm disparaging someone's religion? Oh, puh-leaze. Would you defend Christianity or Judaism like this? or just Islam?
Why is it, whenever someone of one religion feels put upon, they fall back on the 'you wouldn't criticize/support this other religion x that way!

Honey, let me say it again: I'm an atheist. I find all religions equally absurd.
The reason I'm focusing on Islam here is that the discussion has centered around the RRs of islamic students; if you go back a ways, we touched briefly on orthodox judaism as well. Given the whole thing with xians now not being able to 'front hug' each other due to potential arousal issues, it wouldn't surprise me if there are fundie xians out there with the same issues. There are 'Christian Karate' schools all over, because regular martial arts are apparently too demonic for some Christians to attend.

Quote:
Regarding Major Hassan, the biggest difference between him and the other people you mention is that he is the only one who is actually acting according to a proper interpretation of Islam.
Bull. The guy who shot Dr. Tiller - another terrorist - was in perfect accordance with believers of a large proportion of xianinty. The nasties at the wesbro baptist church are acting within a 'proper' interpretation of xianity, as would be someone who killed his wife on their wedding day if she wasn't a virgin. There's a great deal of nastiness in all of the monotheisms. Xians are burning people in this day and age in Africa for supposed witchcraft - 'Proper' Islam has no monopoly on unreason.

Quote:
...the others had very skewed views of their own religious beliefs and are acting contrary to the religion which they just happened to belong.
That is not accurate. Read the whole bible and you will see what I mean.

The world of the schizophrenic is generally quite logical internally; one does not have to be a raving lunatic to be schizophrenic (though it does help to identify them. I think that Hasan's PP presentation should have been a big red flag for his co-workers).

Quote:
He actually took his actions because Islam justifies violent jihad - Holy War - against U.S. soldiers.
His Version of Islam does so. That is not the only valid version of Islam, just as the version of xianity demonstrated by anti-choice terrorists is not the only valid version of xianity (No, I don't think those folks are completely sane, either).

Quote:
It just that people are too afraid to say something critical of Islam, even an extreme view of the religion and people hold back and remain quiet. That is what I mean that we need to cut out the PCism regarding radical Islam.
I AM AN ATHEIST. My very existence offends Islam, as well as believers of a plentitude of other faiths. I'd love to see the PCism towards Islam cut out - but only as long as the PCism towards every other faith is, too.

Quote:
...aikido is a martial art where the sexes train together, and it is reasonable to expect all members in our Western society to train together whether male or female.
Aikido is not a 'western' martial art. It is a Japanese one. By the standards of honoring the 'traditional' ways of training, women should only sit in seiza with their knees together, should bow with their hands on their knees instead of at their sides, should not take positions of authority, etc. Aikido, like buddhism, has spread in part because it has adapted itself to the new contexts in which it finds itself.

Quote:
Often times people blame women for being raped for going someplace alone. You are trying to justify a woman getting excluded from training because she showed up someplace alone.
Being raped is having an action taken directly against you. Not being able to train because you're the only one at the dojo is a lack of action. There's a pretty big difference between the two. It's not her 'fault' that she didn't get to train, it's just the way the world is: If there's no one there to train with, you don't get to train. A rapist is not a natural law; arithmatic is.

Quote:
Yes, I find that as very offensive especially in this example where the women is showing up to a class with 3:1 or 4:1 ratio RR to women. She felt excluded and felt intimidated by the situation. It should not have occurred.
To quote a sempai of mine: 'The only person you have control over is yourself.' Being intimidated is an internal condition; the others have taken no action against you.

Quote:
She still does not get to train when she otherwise would have if people without RR were there for those morning classes.
Excluding people with RRs does not automatically provide people without RRs.

Quote:
...accomodating others is a two way street. I accomodate someone and they in return accommodate me. However, the situations here is not a two way street - especially when radical Islam is invovled. It's only going one direction.
In places without secular institutions in place, that is absolutely the case regardless of the religion. Since I don't know where your dojo is (presumably in a country or region with a very large population of radical Islamists), I cannot speak to your personal situation. What accommodation is 'reasonable' depends on the norm of the cultural setting the dojo is located in.

Quote:
Please Goggle "Wahhabi" and "Sharia Law".
I am familiar with those brand of religious nastiness, thank you. Since you are as well, you probably recognize that (if these men truly do follow that severe of a brand of Islam) they probably consider their refraining from physically assaulting you for being outside of the house without being covered from head to toe and/or the explicit permission of your male 'guardian' as an accommodation to you.

Quote:
The instructor was also Muslim. When the students with the RR came he would not train with her. However, when they were not there he would. He being more of a modernist would appease the more radical by accomodating them and excluding the female student to the extent that she had no one to train with.
Then there's a pretty big problem with the instructor, not just the students.

Quote:
the biggest problem was when we had particularly small classes in the early mornings with an average of 2 - 5 people or when we did randori/jiyuwaza or when I taught. Most class sizes when this was an issue was with about 8 people in a class, our class sizes do not usally get bigger than 12. That is enough to affect one's ability to train.
Yes, it is - but as I have said before, eliminating those with RRs does not equal the sudden appearance of those without RRs. If those without RRs are changing their own behavior to mirror those with RRs when the latter are present (as the instructor cited above), that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Quote:
Yes. They want to be ranked in the association to which we belong. They want the credibility that comes with the name of our head instructor
.

So: your dojo is better.

Quote:
Yes, actually, I have my B.A. in International Studies with a focus in Middle East an Islam's role in the world. I also spent four years on my own accord studying Islam in consideration of converting to it; however, I did not. I have a depth of knowledge regarding the religion, and I also have a law degree so I have an understanding as to legal requirements regarding religious discrimination.
expertise in an area =/= objectivity in an area.

Quote:
They wouldn't be dropping their entire belief system at all. They can do the ritual purification afterwards and still be in accordance with their radical Islamic beliefs. (They just don't want you to know otherwise.) And, yes, they can bend a little. One of the four actually has chosen to do this.
Like I said, if a bath (assuming first, that lack of water is not a serious inhibitor of bathing and second, that this cleansing is not some elaborate hours-long ritual) is really all that is required, then it shouldn't be an issue for the RRs. In this case, I will leave it up to your expertise that this bathing is really not a big deal.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 09:27 AM   #315
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,742
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
To quote a sempai of mine: 'The only person you have control over is yourself.' Being intimidated is an internal condition; the others have taken no action against you.
It strikes me as extremely disingenuous to say that someone has had no action taken against them when they join a dojo and are told that they are welcome to train there, and then others join this same dojo, refuse to train with them because of their gender, and are indulged in this behavior. How is this any different from a passenger on the bus who is willing to sit next to anyone, but who is told by the bus driver that they may only sit in certain seats because only certain passengers are willing to sit next to them? Jim Crow much?

You can't practice aikido without a partner; if you're not willing to be a partner to everyone within the limits of your ability, you need to take your delicate sensibilities elsewhere.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2010, 02:17 PM   #316
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Your analogy is exactly reversed: she wants to sit next to someone on the bus, and is mad that some of the other riders refuse to sit by her.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 07:27 AM   #317
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Your analogy is exactly reversed: she wants to sit next to someone on the bus, and is mad that some of the other riders refuse to sit by her.
+1
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 07:08 PM   #318
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,742
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Your analogy is exactly reversed: she wants to sit next to someone on the bus, and is mad that some of the other riders refuse to sit by her.
They must run city buses differently where you come from. Where I come from, if there's an empty seat on the bus, anyone can sit down in it. If the person in the next seat doesn't want to sit next to a woman, or a person of color, or a guy in a suit, that person can get up and stand, or leave the bus if they want. They can't refuse the right of another passenger to sit on that seat next to them.

If you don't like that analogy, though, how's this one? A Buddhist seeks employment as a waiter in a barbecue restaurant, and after being hired, demands that the restaurant stop serving meat because having to serve platters of ribs to patrons violates his religious principles. Sound reasonable? I'd say it's just as reasonable as entering a dojo, where the assumption is that everybody trains with everybody, and then demand that other people's training change to accommodate you.

Last edited by lbb : 01-23-2010 at 07:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 09:23 AM   #319
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
No, she doesn't. The instructor was also Muslim. When the students with the RR came he would not train with her. However, when they were not there he would. He being more of a modernist would appease the more radical by accomodating them and excluding the female student to the extent that she had no one to train with.
I believe this is the main difference between my opinion and my experience and your opinion and experience.

Where I train, a RR (Jewish if it matters) was admitted to the class, he was accommodated to not train with Women, but all the others did train with the women. His restrictions were respected, but not on the expense of others. If he thought there is some problem in some situation, he was the one left sitting on the side, not any of the woman (unless one of them wanted to rest, and took his existence as an excuse; but this was their choice, not his).

What you are describing in this quote is not the same, this is the Sensei\Sempai restricting the women once other people (RR) are there. Personally I condemn your sensei behavior in this matter. In my opinion and belief (as an Atheist \ non believer of Jewish descent myself) your Sensei should had admitted the RR people, he should had also allowed them not to train with Woman. But, he must not make any additional accommodations for them. He must not stop training with you because of their presence, not to speak of letting any other (non RR) person exclude you from his practice. That was discriminatory!

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 09:54 AM   #320
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I side with Mary on this one. In my dojo it would be open to my values that everyone with everyone else regardless of sex, creed, or religion etc. If you cannot do this based on your Religious Restrictions then there are other dojos to search for.

I would not draw the same conclusion in a restaurant in which one chooses to not eat meat based on religious restriction. As a vegetarian with a philosophical and religious restriction against eating meat I will go to restuarants and not eat meat.

I would not draw the same parallel as my choice has no impact on my fellow diners. I can participate fully in the conversation and dining experience with them.

In a Dojo in Virginia, USA...religious restrictions would be disruptive to the majority of the student base. This is why I make this statement.

In another culture or country, I could see segregation being just fine as it might be the cultural norm. Not so where I live.

Just as if I went to a all meat restaurant where everything was made with animal products and I insisted or expected that they change the menu for me, and it then became disruptive others experience.

There is a reason I don't go to Outback Steakhouse or Ruth Chris'!

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 02:15 PM   #321
Toby Threadgill
Location: Evergreen, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 166
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Hi,

Leading a koryu I've run into this problem and its pretty simple with us. The student adjusts to the dictates of dojo. The dojo does not adjust to the dictates of the student. If you don't like the rules, fine. Go somewhere else, and don't let the door hit your @$$ on the way out.

I will not tolerate students trying to dictate how a TSYR dojo operates. We are koryu. We have time honored traditions that are not negotiable. We once had a female student who insisted that the opening Shinto prayers were offensive to her newly found Christian sensibilities, and should therefore cease. After unsuccessfully trying to reason with her Takamura sensei finally led her to the door and literally booted her out with the bottom of his foot. Immediately following this was the first time I witnessed the formal ceremony of expulsion (hamon).

In modern a dojo where a student might feel training is some sort of commodity, I suppose catering to students sensitivities might be considered acceptable. However, in a koryu dojo the schools knowledge is seen as a sacred trust where martial & cultural traditions trump individual dictates. When cultures or religious beliefs clash in Nihon koryu dojo, the student conforms or leaves. Like I said....It's very simple.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 06:00 PM   #322
Toby Threadgill
Location: Evergreen, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 166
United_States
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Aikido is not a 'western' martial art. It is a Japanese one. By the standards of honoring the 'traditional' ways of training, women should only sit in seiza with their knees together, should bow with their hands on their knees instead of at their sides, should not take positions of authority, etc. Aikido, like buddhism, has spread in part because it has adapted itself to the new contexts in which it finds itself.
Lorien,

I know this is a bit off topic but I take exception to this sweeping generalization of yours. I will not deny that in greater Japanese society woman have many sexist challenges to confront, but an investigation of the "traditional ways" in Japanese koryu culture will reveal the existence of women headmasters thru many years that have been held, and remain held in very high esteem.

Tobari Kazu, headmistress of a line of Shin no Shindo ryu jujutsu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu was a good friend of my teacher and did not sit in seiza like some submissive geisha. She sat and carried herself like any headmaster of a classical jujutsu school. Takamura sensei had the most profound respect for her and took ukemi from her on several occasions. Her students included a stable of very powerful and impressive judoka that would not have been the least bit interested in her teaching had she not demonstrated the tenaciousness commensurate with her position as a koryu headmaster. I also met Nitta Suzuyo, headmaster of Toda ha Buko ryu, in Tokyo in 1994. Her students included people like Ellis Amdur and Meik Skoss. Ellis once told me she could be one of the most harsh and brutally demanding teachers he'd ever met. Imagine this barely 5 foot tall women dressing down 6' 9" Ellis Amdur and you get a picture of quite an amazing woman. Then there is the Tendo ryu, the Higo Koryu, Yoshin ryu and the Jikishinkage ryu schools of naginatajutsu....(Although the Yoshin ryu can be a bit foo fooey) All led by women who are hardly the picture of a dainty and submissive female.

To infer that aikido has adapted egalitarian ideals due to cultural realities outside Japan my be specifically true in some cases but it is not necessarily accurate in relation to the greater Japanese martial culture in the manner implied in your above statement.

(I hope this info makes you all warm and fuzzy.)



Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-01-2010 at 06:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 08:07 PM   #323
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Lorien,

I know this is a bit off topic but I take exception to this sweeping generalization of yours. I will not deny that in greater Japanese society woman have many sexist challenges to confront, but an investigation of the "traditional ways" in Japanese koryu culture will reveal the existence of women headmasters thru many years that have been held, and remain held in very high esteem.
...
To infer that aikido has adapted egalitarian ideals due to cultural realities outside Japan my be specifically true in some cases but it is not necessarily accurate in relation to the greater Japanese martial culture in the manner implied in your above statement.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Toby,
I based my statement on the story of one of my teachers, who (among other issues) went to Japan to train with our dojo-cho a couple of years ago. At one dojo, she repeatedly had a man try to (physically, with his hands) force her to sit with her knees together during kokyu-ho - a less stable position than sitting with the base in a triangle.

I am glad to hear from you that such experiences are not representative.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2010, 07:16 AM   #324
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 144
Japan
Offline
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

The question is why, if he was such a literate believer, would be in the company of all these infidels and infidel, uncovered women in the first place. And lo and behold, there might even be homosexuals in the dojo, who, according to Sharia, deserve death by stoning.

Note also that moderate muslims (the ones who we should support) do not take all these koranic instructions literally.

Once you do, there is no end to it. It is a straight road to 14th century Arabian lifestyle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 08:00 PM   #325
"Choice"
IP Hash: 981e5f64
Anonymous User
Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Race is not a choice.
Gender is not a choice.
Sexuality is not a choice.
Disability is not a choice.
Religion however is a right of choice.
Religion being used as a tool for discrimination is a choice no one has the right to.
And yet there it is again..
Why am I expected to respect his choice, when it is his choice to discriminate against me based on my gender?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aliveness in Martial Arts Video Clip Richard Langridge Open Discussions 60 08-10-2006 09:28 PM
Am i missing something?? aikigirl10 General 119 04-20-2006 12:07 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
Aikido and pregnancy Anat Amitay General 5 03-17-2002 11:49 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:36 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate