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Old 08-06-2009, 06:24 AM   #226
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

There's no men nor women in aikido practise, there's only uke and tori.

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Old 08-06-2009, 06:30 AM   #227
jss
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
C'mon, that's just minor semmantics. What about this:

1. "Muslims and orthodox jews cannot train here" is discrimination based on religion.

2. Who cannot train with women cannot train here.

3. Muslims and orthodox jews cannot train with women.

4. By Modus Ponens of 2 & 3: Muslims and orthodox jews cannot train here.

5. By Modus Ponens of 1 & 4: This is discrimination based on religion.
Nope, it's not minor semantics. So let's get down to full formal logic.

3. Muslims and orthodox jews cannot train with women.
That's the same as: If you're a muslim or an orthodox jew, you cannot train with women.
Formalisation: A implies B.

2. Who cannot train with women cannot train here.
That's the same as: If you cannot train with women, you cannot train here.
Formalisation: B implies C.

4. By Modus Ponens of 2 & 3: Muslims and orthodox jews cannot train here.
That's the same as: If you're a muslim or an orthodox jew, you cannot train here.
Formalisation: A implies C.
Proof: Assume A is true. A implies B, thus B is true. B implies C, thus C is true. Hence, if we assume A, C is true. Or, A implies C.

No problems so far. Then you add another premise (which I'm not arguing against, as it is true):
1. "Muslims and orthodox jews cannot train here" is discrimination based on religion.
That's the same as: Saying "If you're a muslim or an orthodox jew, you cannot train here." is discrimination based on religion.
Formalisation: D equals E.

So now we have:
1. D equals E.
4. A implies C.

Now the question is can we prove from these two statements the following:
5. By Modus Ponens of 1 & 4: This is discrimination based on religion.
Formalisation: E.

I don't see how. You could write:
1. D equals E. as 1. S(A implies C) equals E.
but that doesn't seem to help much. What you want to prove only follows from
A implies C / (A implies C) equals E, but we have not established the second statement, so the conclusion has not been proven.

Last edited by jss : 08-06-2009 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 08-06-2009, 07:58 AM   #228
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Alejandro, religion is someones choice right?
And you are basically saying it is discrimination to not allow a muslim (for example) to exercise their religious practice of not touching a woman in the dojo.

How would you feel if I came to class and choose not to train with muslims? I'm not religious but the mantra of muslims=bad was ingrained in me growing up the same way religion ingrains rules into it's members.

Would you accept and accommodate me not training with Muslims(or Jews, Asians, Spanish)?
Or you do think there is a marked difference between someones personal choice (say being a bigot or racist) and religion?

Do you feel the "rules" of religion more important than someones personal choice just because it's from a recognized religion?

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Old 08-06-2009, 04:06 PM   #229
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Alejandro, religion is someones choice right?
And you are basically saying it is discrimination to not allow a muslim (for example) to exercise their religious practice of not touching a woman in the dojo.

How would you feel if I came to class and choose not to train with muslims? I'm not religious but the mantra of muslims=bad was ingrained in me growing up the same way religion ingrains rules into it's members.

Would you accept and accommodate me not training with Muslims(or Jews, Asians, Spanish)?
Or you do think there is a marked difference between someones personal choice (say being a bigot or racist) and religion?

Do you feel the "rules" of religion more important than someones personal choice just because it's from a recognized religion?
Hi Grant,

I'm done debating the merits of whether a person who cannot train with the opposite sex should be accomodated or not. However, I would like to comment on your statement since it's been brought up a few times in this thread by others as well.

The question is whether religious beliefs/practices should be treated differently than other strongly held convictions.

The American legal system has largely answered that question in the affirmative - giving more weight to religiously-based practice than to other convictions. Hence, the myriad of religious accomodation laws found at the state and federal level. I believe the primary reason for this is to protect religious minorities from undue discrimination and hardship.

Do they have similar statutes in Canada?

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 08-06-2009 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:12 PM   #230
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Nope, it's not minor semantics. So let's get down to full formal logic.
Wow! Reminds me of my logic class during grad school studying with the brothers at the Dominican House in DC. Crazy.

I wish I could jump in to help you guys settle the matter but I'm afraid I'm a bit rusty on all that MP/MT stuff.

...rab
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:31 PM   #231
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Hi folks,

Once again:

I just wanted to step in and ask that the subject matter in this thread be focused on the matter of aikido students at a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) aikido dojo who have a religious prohibition against touching women.

If you feel the need to move this subject to a broader context outside of aikido, please take it to the Open Discussions forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 08-06-2009, 05:02 PM   #232
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Since I'm not in the states and don't even have a clue what a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) aikido dojo, let me quietly drop the discussion and go back lurking to my cave.

Best.
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:49 PM   #233
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
The question is whether religious beliefs/practices should be treated differently than other strongly held convictions.

The American legal system has largely answered that question in the affirmative - giving more weight to religiously-based practice than to other convictions.
Ahhh, I'm quite saddened by your answer but thank you.
Quote:
Do they have similar statutes in Canada?
I'm not sure to be honest but I can only imagine they would.

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Old 08-06-2009, 09:19 PM   #234
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

If a man comes to the dojo who wishes to practice but who is not able to train with me because I am female, I say he is still welcome. Now if he and I were the only students in the class for the night it might become an issue. Especially if the Sensei teaching for the night were Tara. But in that case... shrug.... his loss.

I can understand how such a person might feel considering not long ago my own religious views would have had a major effect on my even taking up aikido.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:29 PM   #235
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi folks,

Once again:

I just wanted to step in and ask that the subject matter in this thread be focused on the matter of aikido students at a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) aikido dojo who have a religious prohibition against touching women.

If you feel the need to move this subject to a broader context outside of aikido, please take it to the Open Discussions forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun
Of course it is a complex issue. 501(c)(3) status really only pertains to an organization's tax exempt status. It is America's civil right's laws that deal with discrimination. However, the courts have been very leniant regarding "discrimination" whan done in the name of "religion." I know there exist in America, 501(c)(3) religious organizations that have prohibitions against women holding certain offices.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:10 PM   #236
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

yes and the Boy Scouts of america openly do not allow girls to join Boy Scouts, Atheist, or Homosexuals...and they are a 501

wiki seems to have a pretty good primer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...on-profit_laws

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Old 08-07-2009, 12:48 AM   #237
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Here again, the problem has nothing to do with a person's religion, but on a given behaviour that makes the practise of aikido in its full sense impossible. After that, if that person is a rabid supporter of the Taliban, of Torquemada or of Stalin, as long as he keeps it out of the dojo, it's not the dojo's concern anymore. After all, Ueshiba met and practised with many people with very debatable views on their nation and its place in the world.

If the person wanted to join a chess club, that no-touch rule in his/her life would not be a problem. Also, if the restriction was, for example, that s/he only dresses without anyone else in the room, it is simply an accomodation outside the core of the activity.

Last edited by aikilouis : 08-07-2009 at 12:51 AM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 05:49 AM   #238
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Thumbs down Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
Here again, the problem has nothing to do with a person's religion, but on a given behaviour that makes the practise of aikido in its full sense impossible.
Untrue. It's all about religion.

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
After that, if that person is a rabid supporter of the Taliban...
Thanks for the assumption.
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Old 08-07-2009, 07:32 AM   #239
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Accommodations for special situations are made all the time. People with bad knees don't do suwari-waza, people don't participate in certain kinds of vigorous training for various reasons (physical condition, youth, or age), people come late or leave early to accommodate their work schedules. Nobody blinks an eye as long as there is some kind of reasonable explanation. Is adhering to your religious beliefs (and these are well established religious beliefs from well established religions) really such an unreasonable explanation?

Best,

Chris
There is a difference between physical limitations and those imposed limitations we place upon ourselves by our beliefs.

Of course this does not mean one cannot accommodate such a request, etc. But the question then remains, why go somewhere which does not share the same values as yourself... this is where the true issues arise.

When you go into any particular milieu, your a guest of that, and then later you may fit into it... often people try to bring and impose their natural way of doing things into their new surroundings.

i.e., a big complaint I read constantly about people who live in Hawaii are about those who move from Cali over to the islands trying to make it be something other than what it is.

Its not that the guys/gals from mainland are worse off for their ideas, and probably have some good ideas at that, its the fact that they are new to the host place and automatically appear to be trying to adjust an established base to suit their will. [Not quite that harsh, but thats how its taken.]

So in short, it always has amazed me of the people going somewhere and then try to claim discrimination when they knowingly went into something culturally different then they are used to.

Personally, I feel we would do good to drop a lot of our notions we cling to... Im not saying either way what I would do as I dont know because Im not in that situation to see how things fit.

If I do open a dojo it would probably be word of mouth anyway and not a free for all... for me there would be the dynamic of who I would want to teach. Is that bad? It may sound snobbish, but at the same time I dont want to make the time for the number of people that typically come in and then leave after a month or so of Aikido... as well as peoples goals and aims, etc.

Things arent that cut and dry, really - it takes both parties to try to work together and understand each other.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
not that any of the above made sense, or reads like I wanted it to... but the essence is there somewhere. lol

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Old 08-07-2009, 07:58 AM   #240
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

dAlen wrote:

Quote:
So in short, it always has amazed me of the people going somewhere and then try to claim discrimination when they knowingly went into something culturally different then they are used to.
Kinda like buying cheap land at the end of a runway, building houses then complaining that the airplanes make too much noise for the community.

Quote:
Personally, I feel we would do good to drop a lot of our notions we cling to... Im not saying either way what I would do as I dont know because Im not in that situation to see how things fit.
I was just talking to this with my wife last night about how apparent it is to me now working with people and all the baggage they bring onto the mat or studio. In most cases they are not even aware of it as they have no reference point or awareness of it. If they "let go" well what are they letting go of? Also, it can be a scary thing to abandon what had provided you security, comfort, and habits.

Not an easy task, but I agree.

Quote:
If I do open a dojo it would probably be word of mouth anyway and not a free for all... for me there would be the dynamic of who I would want to teach. Is that bad? It may sound snobbish, but at the same time I dont want to make the time for the number of people that typically come in and then leave after a month or so of Aikido... as well as peoples goals and aims, etc.
I think it depends on how you approach it. I would be open to anyone that wants to train, but they must listen to me, not waste my time, and try to do things my way.

It is also a luxury that is hard to afford for most folks that need to stay in the green sometime. Or at least that is the preception.

How do you maintain your ideals and standards of excellence while keep folks in the dojo. I have my ideas in this area. I think there are some good ways to have it both ways.

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Old 08-07-2009, 08:02 AM   #241
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Ludwig wrote:

Quote:
Here again, the problem has nothing to do with a person's religion, but on a given behaviour that makes the practise of aikido in its full sense impossible. After that, if that person is a rabid supporter of the Taliban, of Torquemada or of Stalin, as long as he keeps it out of the dojo, it's not the dojo's concern anymore. After all, Ueshiba met and practised with many people with very debatable views on their nation and its place in the world.
No, I think it is important to sometimes take a holisitc view of the person. If I had verifiable knowledge that someone did not represent the values that we aspire to outside the dojo as well, then I would ask them to leave.

Being a Terriorist is definitely one of them and I think it is our business.

An extreme example for sure, as folks don't usually wear "Hug me, I'm a terrorist!" T-shirts.

I did have a student once that went out got drunk and kicked people's asses in bar fights for fun. I counseled him. Next time, I refused to train him any longer.

I think as Aikdoka, we have a responsibility that extends beyond the hours and walls of the dojo.

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Old 08-07-2009, 08:13 AM   #242
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... Also, it can be a scary thing to abandon what had provided you security, comfort, and habits.

How do you maintain your ideals and standards of excellence while keep folks in the dojo. I have my ideas in this area. I think there are some good ways to have it both ways.
First point is on the spot... been through some of those scary moments myself.

Second thought about the income, I suppose when that is your main source of income it can make things less than idea... a challenge within itself to be sure, which perhaps could be avoided.

Curious your take on it as you mentioned you had a couple of ideas in that area.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 08-07-2009, 08:56 AM   #243
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Well my take on it is that we do a pretty poor job in aikido over all at teaching basic foundational skills. Sure most schools have a syllabus of techniques and testing criteria....that is not what I am talking about.

Some of this is probably linked to the whole "internal" thread. But I don't really want to go there as it gets way too emotional and over complicated with lots of things really confusing the fundamental problems.

Probably should start a new thread for this though as it is NOT related to this thread at all.

bottomline is that in doing a particular technique in aikido, there are some fundamental body skills and a certain level of conditioning that must exsist in order to actually do it successfully. There are ways to do this I think.

If you want to discuss we can move to another thread!

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Old 08-10-2009, 08:27 AM   #244
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Of course it is a complex issue. 501(c)(3) status really only pertains to an organization's tax exempt status. It is America's civil right's laws that deal with discrimination. However, the courts have been very leniant regarding "discrimination" whan done in the name of "religion." I know there exist in America, 501(c)(3) religious organizations that have prohibitions against women holding certain offices.
There is a narrow line between allowable doctrine and tax exempt status and discrimination law.
You can be a religious college and refuse to allow an Atheist to teach religion (the United States V Holy cross college) But you cannot be a college accepting federal funding and do the same thing!
You can refuse to allow a gay choir director, or even a women pastor, but you cannot do so in a private school accepting federal funding
Now here's the catch. The public school system began selectively discriminating against Christian gatherings in favor of Wicca, and Muslims and many others even after a Supreme Court ruling banning selection of student instituted gatherings.
So you have very defining rules mostly centered around the acceptance of public money or activities on public grounds.

The courts will most likely remain lenient in that regard. It is almost impossible to separate doctrine from religious freedom. The laws and what constitutes "harm" will remain flexible-but I suspect only in regards to western Judeo/ Christians sensibilities. I don't think you are going to see Shia law respected and protected under 501 status here anytime soon. Law isn't perfect; it’s a guideline of accepted community standards of behavior.
So an aikido club -as a non profit- will not enjoy the same freedom-or protection under federal discimination standards as it does not have a "belief system" covered under the adjoining freedom-of-religion laws. Worse they may be treated differently under the law, if the same aikido club is meeting in a) a church or b) a Fed. funded building of some kind then an equal 501 group (like a Baptist bible study group) renting the same space.
Confusing? You betcha.


As for women in the dojo. I have no trouble with the OP. I train with women all the time in my dojo-I just make sure to shower after.
The problem is...
I can't get them to join me!
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2009 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:32 PM   #245
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

I was an Orthodox Jew from birth, but as an adult I grew away from the restrictions because I found them to be the mechanations of men acting out of their own earthly motives, not ones of divine enlightenment or direction.

When I first trained in aikido, I was hesitant to join a co-ed class because of the contact with males to whom I was not married. But I came to realize that if I wanted to integrate myself into the greater outside world and culture, I would have to adapt to it and not expect it to adapt to my rather limited and limiting little enclave of medieval holdouts.

I'd have to say that getting into martial arts was my first step in opening up my mind. I don't feel that it has made me less of a Jew, just way more sensitive and aware of what constitutes being a Jew, and what is artifice created by those who would consdier themselves the ruling class. The choice of whether to train or not has to be based on the comfort level of the individual. He (or she) can always find someone to start a single-sex school.

Dan Harden:
As for women in the dojo. I have no trouble with the OP. I train with women all the time in my dojo-I just make sure to shower after.
I'd think that those women would wish that you showered BEFORE you train with them. [crinkles up nose]

Last edited by K. Abrams : 08-10-2009 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 08-30-2009, 03:38 PM   #246
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Kreyna Abrams wrote: View Post
I was an Orthodox Jew from birth, but as an adult I grew away from the restrictions because I found them to be the mechanations of men acting out of their own earthly motives, not ones of divine enlightenment or direction.

When I first trained in aikido, I was hesitant to join a co-ed class because of the contact with males to whom I was not married. But I came to realize that if I wanted to integrate myself into the greater outside world and culture, I would have to adapt to it and not expect it to adapt to my rather limited and limiting little enclave of medieval holdouts.
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Old 08-31-2009, 06:40 AM   #247
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Kreyna Abrams wrote: View Post
I was an Orthodox Jew from birth, but as an adult I grew away from the restrictions because I found them to be the mechanations of men acting out of their own earthly motives, not ones of divine enlightenment or direction.

When I first trained in aikido, I was hesitant to join a co-ed class because of the contact with males to whom I was not married. But I came to realize that if I wanted to integrate myself into the greater outside world and culture, I would have to adapt to it and not expect it to adapt to my rather limited and limiting little enclave of medieval holdouts.

I'd have to say that getting into martial arts was my first step in opening up my mind. I don't feel that it has made me less of a Jew, just way more sensitive and aware of what constitutes being a Jew, and what is artifice created by those who would consdier themselves the ruling class. The choice of whether to train or not has to be based on the comfort level of the individual. He (or she) can always find someone to start a single-sex school.

Dan Harden:
As for women in the dojo. I have no trouble with the OP. I train with women all the time in my dojo-I just make sure to shower after.
I'd think that those women would wish that you showered BEFORE you train with them. [crinkles up nose]
Hi Kreyna

Would had joined M.A. back then, when you were just stating, if the teachers would have insisted on your training with man from the start?
Do you think others of similar situation, just starting "Hazara BeShela" ("Returning to question" - the common Hebrew term of people leaving orthodox Judaism -- and becoming secular), would have joined such a place?

BR
Amir

P.S.
I know of very few orthodox jews who are active M.A. in most cases, these people are the excpetion, and are already more open then most around them. This was the reason I believe they should get consideration: in deciding to join a coed Dojo, they already make significant concessions to their way of life and rech a hand to us - non orthodx.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:49 AM   #248
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

When I wanted to swim at the YMCA, they had a posted set of rules in the pool room. You had to follow those rules to continue to swim.

I didn't like all of them. I prefer to swim in the buff, I hate showering before a swim, and I love to cannon ball. But, I knew going in what the rules were. The same is true if you come to take my judo class. I have a clear, open, and easy to find set of rules. We bow in, we warmup, we do judo, we switch partners until everyone has worked with everybody, we spar, we bow, we go home, we repeat the next class. You will be grabed, sometimes in appropriately (never on purpose), sweated on, slammed, kicked, floated, thrown, bleed on, cut, and possibly get some broken bones. If you don't like any of that, then my school is not for you. You don't decide who you train with any more then you decide what throw you are going to practice. So yes, this is discrimination, but discrimination is not always a bad thing (in most cases it is not a bad thing). It says "I'm looking for these kind of people to train", so if you are not that kind of person, you and I are probably not going to get along. You will get substandard training, and I will get annoyed with you for your silliness. It's best for both our sakes if you don't train with me.

When I started in BJJ there was a guy who came in with no arms. He didn't just want to learn bjj, he wanted to fight MMA on our upcoming card. My coach turned him down. Sure he was athletic and had good kicks, but his fighting MMA wouldn't be good for him, my coach, the promotion, or the guy who got tricked into fighting him. He did some bjj classes for a few weeks, realized it was really hard to do without arms compared to TKD, and left. A nice guy, but I wouldn't of trained him in judo. I'm not properly educated to deal with a guy with no arms, and it would break the flow of my students and their training.

To further all of that, and something that I didn't read even discussed here, is this.

I am an atheist. Every discussion up to this point as assumed you should have respect for religions beliefs because you want them to have respect for yours. In my eyes, a person asking me to make a religions exception is beyond ridiculous. Being a atheist means that religion is nothing more then fairy tales and myths. I can keep my mouth shut to be polite. I won't challenge anyone from having a belief unless they put it in my face. But here I would be with a guy asking me to change what I do in a major way, disrupting my class flow, over something I view as a storybook.

That doesn't mean I won't train you if you believe in god/gods. It means that if that belief interferes with the structure I've laid down, then you probably need to find a different dojo. In fact, I know of a few in the area that cater to those with restrictive beliefs. If they are decent human beings, they will respect that and move on. I'd do the same if I happened across a school that wanted a group prayer prior to class.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:44 PM   #249
Walter Martindale
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
(snip)
I am an atheist. Every discussion up to this point as assumed you should have respect for religions beliefs because you want them to have respect for yours. In my eyes, a person asking me to make a religions exception is beyond ridiculous. Being a atheist means that religion is nothing more then fairy tales and myths. I can keep my mouth shut to be polite. I won't challenge anyone from having a belief unless they put it in my face. But here I would be with a guy asking me to change what I do in a major way, disrupting my class flow, over something I view as a storybook.

That doesn't mean I won't train you if you believe in god/gods. It means that if that belief interferes with the structure I've laid down, then you probably need to find a different dojo. In fact, I know of a few in the area that cater to those with restrictive beliefs. If they are decent human beings, they will respect that and move on. I'd do the same if I happened across a school that wanted a group prayer prior to class.
Hear-Hear!!.
Kinda like Richard Dawkins' remarks that there are no muslim, jewish, or christian children, only children of muslim, jewish, or christian parents. The rest is indoctrination from storybooks... This business of "one true god" - why is that any less ridiculous than Odin, Zeus, or the various Tortoise or Raven stories of the native cultures of the Canadian indigenous people...?
A quick google search on "worst bible verses" brings (among others):
http://en.wordpress.com/tag/worst-bible-verse/
Whee!
W

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 09-03-2009 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:16 PM   #250
akiy
 
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Re: Religious Restrictions on Training

Hi folks,

Request #4:

I just wanted to step in and ask that the subject matter in this thread be focused on the matter of aikido students at a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) aikido dojo who have a religious prohibition against touching women.

If you feel the need to move this subject to a broader context outside of aikido, please take it to the Open Discussions forum.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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