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Old 08-18-2011, 02:52 AM   #76
Janet Rosen
 
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

I always like a good chicken katetori

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:47 PM   #77
Keith Larman
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Well, that was lovely. Today a package arrived on my doorstep. An unmarked shipping envelope that contained two books -- one of which is the book referenced above "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist". The other an autographed copy of a book I'm pretty sure some have bothered to read. All sent to me anonymously. So thank you to whomever was kind enough to send me such nice, new copies of these books! Truly appreciated and wholly unexpected. Thank you!

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Old 08-25-2011, 05:03 PM   #78
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

[/quote] Bujutsu has to do with the clarity and the success of the technique. Through the study of technique we
discover and experience the unity of mind-heart, body, and ki, which develops intuitive action coming from
a state of no-mind or no thought. Natural power is developed in the hips (koshi) together with ki and breath
(kokyu) „Especially to learn to be able to sense the intent and movement of the partner before they move,"
(O-Sensei) leading to the ability to lead or guide the attacker.[quote]

By Peter Shapiro sensei.

Nice to hear someone else talking my language.

Think I'll go research and find some more.

Regards.G.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:22 PM   #79
Keith Larman
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Overwhelmingly the posts are full of dicto simpliciter ("every school boy knows..."), biased samples, and confirmation bias fallacies. Not to mention rather thinly guised argumentum ad hominem (condescending lecturing about how simple it really is -- obviously the readers aren't nearly as enlightened and brilliant as you). And other logical and general argument fallacies, but I'm sure I'm boring the readers at this point.

The last one posted is confirmation bias combined with equivocation fallacy, by the way. Keep digging. You can always find bits and pieces to substantiate anything you'd like.

Truthiness. Great word.

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Old 08-26-2011, 06:35 AM   #80
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Overwhelmingly the posts are full of dicto simpliciter ("every school boy knows..."), biased samples, and confirmation bias fallacies. Not to mention rather thinly guised argumentum ad hominem (condescending lecturing about how simple it really is -- obviously the readers aren't nearly as enlightened and brilliant as you). And other logical and general argument fallacies, but I'm sure I'm boring the readers at this point.

The last one posted is confirmation bias combined with equivocation fallacy, by the way. Keep digging. You can always find bits and pieces to substantiate anything you'd like.

Truthiness. Great word.
Nice. Sounds like you need more centre. If you had koshi though you could let go of your negative feelings.

Have fun.

G.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:09 AM   #81
Marc Abrams
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Keith:

Isn't it fun trying to debate a person who is incapable of debating ! The person is concerned with your koshi and center! Maybe if that person has a real set of cajones, he could visit you and show you how it's done........

Cordially,

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:42 AM   #82
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

The truthiness, it burns, preciousss.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:43 AM   #83
Keith Larman
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

Isn't it fun trying to debate a person who is incapable of debating ! The person is concerned with your koshi and center! Maybe if that person has a real set of cajones, he could visit you and show you how it's done........

Cordially,

Marc Abrams
Yup...

And he posts yet another example of argumentum ad hominem.

Plonk time. I've spent way too much time on this. My concern is that there are those who might find his arguments compelling all while he would be laughed out of an lower division logic or philosophy class. Philosophy in general and logic in particular are a heck of a lot more than sounding deep. Much like Aikido, without some substance the outer forms are just that -- an insubstantial shell.

Too much to do, not enough mental energy.

BTW, Graham, the previous sentence is an opening for a final zinger post that I won't even see -- you're welcome!

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:50 PM   #84
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Yup...

And he posts yet another example of argumentum ad hominem.

Plonk time. I've spent way too much time on this. My concern is that there are those who might find his arguments compelling all while he would be laughed out of an lower division logic or philosophy class. Philosophy in general and logic in particular are a heck of a lot more than sounding deep. Much like Aikido, without some substance the outer forms are just that -- an insubstantial shell.

Too much to do, not enough mental energy.

BTW, Graham, the previous sentence is an opening for a final zinger post that I won't even see -- you're welcome!
Bless you. I merely gave a source relevant to my thread. I can give the philosophy of it and practically demonstrate it thank you.

Obviously some here are unaware of this aspect or even perspective.

Maybe you're right, it's too deep.

Must be my fault for understanding it. Ha, ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:41 AM   #85
roadtoad
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

I think one of the things you're talking about, is what some martial artists call the 'second man', or, that there is a second person shadowing you, close to what some native indians call your 'second', but that's another story.
Man Ming is actually located on the spine, if you had a spiritual flashlight and shined it through your belly button until the light hit your spine, that would be man ming. It is actually one of the four dan tings. The aikido one point is actually the point of original chi, which is...if you make your hand flat, including your thumb, and then hold it below your belly button, now you have to make three fingers width inside your body, that is the actual one point that all aikidoka should be using.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:02 PM   #86
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
I think one of the things you're talking about, is what some martial artists call the 'second man', or, that there is a second person shadowing you, close to what some native indians call your 'second', but that's another story.
Man Ming is actually located on the spine, if you had a spiritual flashlight and shined it through your belly button until the light hit your spine, that would be man ming. It is actually one of the four dan tings. The aikido one point is actually the point of original chi, which is...if you make your hand flat, including your thumb, and then hold it below your belly button, now you have to make three fingers width inside your body, that is the actual one point that all aikidoka should be using.
That's closer, Man-ming.

Not being one for super amounts of data and references (others opinions) I would say that man-ming is closer to what I talk about here. Probably though, as pointed out earlier, a bit below that called yao in chinese. (physically speaking)

I posted this on the spiritual thread and that's usually why the misunderstandings and arguments occur because not many really practice this side of the art. Though they do love to argue, ha, ha.

In tai chi, qi gong, and those kind of things these concepts are quite well known in various forms. In shinto itself it is also well known and taoism. In fact the yao is said to be the power point that opens
up the man-ming and can be described as a gateway in taoist terminology, a gateway to the transcendance of the physical body.

In these things it's also related to the void, something else I point out regularly.

Now, here in this thread I go a step further and point out that the Japanese had these concepts. The concept of one point I'm sure was used by the most famous original Karate Masters and Koshi is so well known it's embedded in the culture. I guarantee Early Sumo knew about it and also that Ueshiba and his nephew used it but just referred to it as lowering the hips or sinking the hips but the words they would use would obviously be koshi. I also bet they emphasized it but those into only physical would not see the significance.

I read recently how the top Karate person, master, at the time explained how he was 'defeated' by Inoue (Ueshiba's nephew) with such a soft karate strike that it led to him relearning all that he already knew. He was amazed how he dropped his hips and this gave this unexplainable softness in his strike. Thus he went on to learn from Ueshiba and Inoue and put that into his Karate.

The nearest I see most Aikido folk who don't know get to it recently is some I/P they are learning and thus the ground force would be in the general ball park.

Toheis weight underside is much to do with this and so those really good at weight underside would be in the same ball park also for it is directly related to koshi.

When I see movies or joke with students about doing the horse stance, get them doing it, like they are sitting on an imaginary stall and straining their thigh muscles trying to hold the position, then I say how this is actually an exercise of 'sitting in koshi' and koshi is like sitting on a super soft cloud or sofa. Only then will the thighs relax and the true feeling be experienced.

Sitting in seiza one should be sitting in koshi too.

Like your second person analogy and indian story. No doubt they have their ways of putting it, probably the shamen of various African Arts have their versions too etc. I would expect all arts from various cultures and peoples tracing back you will find these various 'centers' of .spirit/mind/body put in their own ways.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:27 PM   #87
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Hi Ike, I never heard of Man Ming nor Dan Ting. However, I have heard about mingmen and dantian -

Greg
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Old 03-11-2012, 02:18 PM   #88
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Ike, I never heard of Man Ming nor Dan Ting. However, I have heard about mingmen and dantian -

Greg
Thought you would like the Dan Ting, ha, ha.

Peace, G.
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:26 PM   #89
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thought you would like the Dan Ting, ha, ha.

Peace, G.
Yeah, it is always interesting watching Dan do his 'Ting'

Greg
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:08 PM   #90
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Greg, you're right, I misspelled it. Mingmen is Du4, and considered the point of the yang of the kidney,which is also used for ki. Yaoyangguan is Du3, but not used for much in martial arts.
In daoism, menming is used as a dantian, but placed about an inch inside the body, not the same place as acupuncture, for the most power. Many chinese styles, including many taiji styles, use this, instead of the point of original chi, for their power point.
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:19 PM   #91
gregstec
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
Greg, you're right, I misspelled it. Mingmen is Du4, and considered the point of the yang of the kidney,which is also used for ki. Yaoyangguan is Du3, but not used for much in martial arts.
In daoism, menming is used as a dantian, but placed about an inch inside the body, not the same place as acupuncture, for the most power. Many chinese styles, including many taiji styles, use this, instead of the point of original chi, for their power point.
I am with you on your points and what you are saying - In Aikido, center, or Tohei's one point, is below the naval and in as you described - but dantian is different, and there are more that one dantian point in the Chinese stuff as you have said.

Greg
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:17 AM   #92
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

When I see movies or joke with students about doing the horse stance, get them doing it, like they are sitting on an imaginary stall and straining their thigh muscles trying to hold the position, then I say how this is actually an exercise of 'sitting in koshi' and koshi is like sitting on a super soft cloud or sofa. Only then will the thighs relax and the true feeling be experienced.
graham, how do i do the horse stance 'koshi' style. i cannot get the soft sofa feeling, my thighs can't take the position too long. can you go into more detail?
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:08 AM   #93
graham christian
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Re: The two body/mind concepts of Japanese Martial Arts.

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote: View Post
graham, how do i do the horse stance 'koshi' style. i cannot get the soft sofa feeling, my thighs can't take the position too long. can you go into more detail?
Hi. An unexpected question.

The answer depends on what your purpose is really for what you are actually asking is how to develop Koshi.

As I see it I find many, in fact most of those involved with 'gravity' or 'grounding' type 'Ki' exercises using their center or lowering or dropping center to do so. This is not Koshi. Koshi is a different center.

The standard way for me would be of course a process and thus not something people start off with. In my opinion those who practice weight underside are perhaps unknowingly developing the beginnings of Koshi.

So as you see it's a matter of learning center, one point, weight underside and then developing Koshi.

So secondly it depends on how aware you are of those things mentioned above and how good are you at employing them at what you do. If they are very real to you then I could give a different answer based on your understanding otherwise it may only lead to confusion.

Peace.G.
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