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Old 01-10-2007, 05:23 PM   #26
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I am talking in ideals of course, and not reality (although it would be nice and something to have as a goal).

I suppose that the bottomline is that in any thing we do we should seek to be geniune and truthful, and take action based on this. That is, we'd do what was right for people, not necesssarily for what was good for a particular group of people, or an particular agenda.

I admit, that this is very difficult to do.
Yes. And then there's the issue of who/what decides what is "right," for people. Different people have different perspectives, on what is right/wrong.

Quote:
To answer your question directly. I think that at some point that one side might be right, genuine, and truthful on a particular issue, therefore, you would make a choice to take action that aligns with that side.

So, you would again upset the balance and be accused of being polictical (polarized). it would simply go back and forth under the duality of it and you would have agendas, mistrust, and politics.

To truly accomplish this, you need to have everyone involved with seeking to solve the problem from a point of truth.
Yes, and therein lies the rub. So much misinformation is out there, even from our leaders. How do we achieve harmony, when the "other side" is so misinformed?

Quote:
Okay...so here is the problem. Because we have so many perspectives, motivational factors, ideologies, and beliefs...then everyone thinks they are right and truthful!
Exactly.

Quote:
If we had everyone aligned under the same ideology etc...well then you have things like cults, dictators...etc.

Seems you cannot win!

All we can do I think is worry about ourselves, keep this in mind..that is...that we are influenced by ideology. My mindful decisions, and thnk hard about how the choice we make impact the world.
Agreed.

Quote:
If enough people did this, then things would gradually move in the right direction.

What choice do we have?

Hence, why I never get into those political discussions with you Neil! I read them from time to time...but I don't get the same practice in randori that you do from them. Just a different perspective.
No problem! Some ppl like talking politics and get a lot out of it: and some don't. I accept that. One man's food, another man's poison, and all that.

Quote:
Good conversation Neil.

Thanks.
Same to ya.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
How does this view harmonize with you putting people on ignore when you disagree with them?

Good, John, I'm glad you posted, here. I can assume that you'll be respectful in a forum entitled "Respect," and so I can remove the ignore (for now).

The simple answer to your question is, I don't put ppl on ignore when they disagree with me. I put them on ignore when their posts become personally insulting. In fact, I welcome dissenting views in a political discussion, so long as it is a discussion free from personal attacks.

For the rest, I use the ignore button.
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Old 01-10-2007, 06:18 PM   #27
mriehle
 
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Cool Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Is my sig a problem?
Well, I think it's kind of hard on the drunken sailors...


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Old 01-11-2007, 05:14 AM   #28
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Frank Murphy wrote:



So at what point do you make an ethical decision to promote/sponsor certain things or to not?

I am not being judgemental, just asking where you stand on this.

Is it all about making money, or getting good ratings or at some point do you say, "this is the line I won't cross, because it is against my personal values/ethics"'?

I think what Mr. Leavitt is driving at here is that there is really no way for you to promote and link the websites of these people without taking some responsibility for what they say. Your reply seemed almost completely irrelevant.

I can understand that, in terms of entertainment "form" the people you have linked are "not boring", but in terms of content, they are raving demagogues, promoting hatred, intolerance, and everything but "respect" and rational debate. Just some examples that come to mind... O'Reilly has said that people in San Fransico deserve to be attacked by terrorists. Coulter has repeatedly referred to middle-easterners as "ragheads", called Americans whom she considers too liberal "terrorists" and often makes statements like "Liberals hate God and hate America". Hannity's show is often composed almost entirely of people screaming at each other simultaneously, with almost no possibility of the viewer even understanding what is being said.

Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg. It would take pages to dissect all the ways in which these people are making a career out of dragging public debate down to the most vicious sub-mental level possible. If you claim to value respectful dialogue and take umbrage at the kind of mild strife that takes place on Aikiweb, there is no way you can link and promote these people's sites without being a hypocrite. Trying to separate the form of what these people do 'as entertainment' from the content of what they say and the function that they serve in mainstream politics isn't going to fool anyone who is honest and has basic thinking skills.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:09 AM   #29
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Hey Neil,

Quote:
Me neither. But, I think that political discussion is important, esp within the context of a martial art promoting harmony.

How do you preserve harmony within the framework of a dis-harmonious topic?
Political arguing has it's place. If there is a political forum on a message board then that's fine, and even if it's in a general forum, in moderation it's fine.
Most of the posts I've read from you seem centered on politics. We all love Aikido here- I really wonder sometimes how healthy it is to mix aikido and politics.

I do see the point how harmony should be implemented in something like politics but, and take this at face value my friend, you don't really strike me as trying to harmonize with anything when it comes to politics. (Not saying your alone in that either)
From you're posts I don't see you trying to take someone Else's point of view into the mix all too often. Truthfully it seems more like you feel you are right and that's the end of it. Not often a lot of room for Harmony, blending of points of view and such.
I understand how such arguments stands as a form of verbal randori but again I don't see it as blending so much as 'I'm right and i dint understand why everyone else doesn't see things the way I do.'
That's just my opinion of course, I'm a crude amateur when it comes to political and even on line debating and I may be alone in my assessment but that's how you come across to me, take that for what it's worth.
With regards to the odd political comment thrown in here and there, I think for the most part they've been harmless but reading them I've always felt like the poster was (often) trying to spark up a political debate. Maybe I'm just not reading the humor correctly, in which case my bad.
In the end you did contribute to the forum (something I haven't done yet) so if politics is how you approach Aikido who am I or anyone else for that matter to say anything.

Frank, I completely agree with the comment that someone is at least somewhat responsible for the content of the links and such that they post or link to their messages and profiles.
MANY of the links on your bigdawg web page favorite list are the farthest thing from heavens of respectful discussion. I'd say he opposite. People such as Ann coulter made a name for themselves by being aggressive rude and making noise.
It makes your initial comments on respect and aggressive posting less effective.

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 01-11-2007 at 08:20 AM.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 01-11-2007, 10:54 AM   #30
Neil Mick
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Most of the posts I've read from you seem centered on politics. We all love Aikido here- I really wonder sometimes how healthy it is to mix aikido and politics.
"Healthy?" Sometimes I wonder how healthy it is, to avoid mixing Aikido and politics. Americans, esp, have a hard time talking about politics. And yet, what's going on in this country (and the world) really do need to be discussed.

Look, there is a time and a place, for everything. Personally, I cringe when someone makes a political statement in the circle, after practice. It does not seem the appropriate moment, then. Fora, OTOH, seem a natural outlet for discussion, ergo, politics is a natural topic.

Quote:
I do see the point how harmony should be implemented in something like politics but, and take this at face value my friend, you don't really strike me as trying to harmonize with anything when it comes to politics. (Not saying your alone in that either)
From you're posts I don't see you trying to take someone Else's point of view into the mix all too often. Truthfully it seems more like you feel you are right and that's the end of it.
"If I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position!" "No it isn't! An argument is an intellectual process!" (sorry, couldn't help myself)

There are different ways to "harmonize." Fo instance, from my very first post on the 50+ page thread on Iraq in 2002 until well into 2004, I contended that there were no wmd's in Iraq.

Now, do you think that "harmonizing" means that I should capitulate to the other's view, and say, OK, you may have a point, there could be wmd's in Iraq, somewhere?

No, of course not. Capitulation would be equivalent to handing a mugger your wallet and valuables as a first option (sometimes, this IS the best course of action...but not the only one). "Harmony" in political discussion, translates to a "meeting of minds." In a meeting of minds, I don't have to capitulate to the other's perspective...we can each have disagreements and still carry on a discussion with integrity.

Quote:
Not often a lot of room for Harmony, blending of points of view and such.
I do not agree. I think you're focusing overmuch on the dissention.

Quote:
I understand how such arguments stands as a form of verbal randori but again I don't see it as blending so much as 'I'm right and i dint understand why everyone else doesn't see things the way I do.'
Frankly, I don't remember ever saying anything like that.

Quote:
That's just my opinion of course, I'm a crude amateur when it comes to political and even on line debating and I may be alone in my assessment but that's how you come across to me, take that for what it's worth.
With regards to the odd political comment thrown in here and there, I think for the most part they've been harmless but reading them I've always felt like the poster was (often) trying to spark up a political debate. Maybe I'm just not reading the humor correctly, in which case my bad.
In the end you did contribute to the forum (something I haven't done yet) so if politics is how you approach Aikido who am I or anyone else for that matter to say anything.
Not sure what you mean...of course you contribute to political fora. I actually look forward to your perspectives.

Quote:
Frank, I completely agree with the comment that someone is at least somewhat responsible for the content of the links and such that they post or link to their messages and profiles.
MANY of the links on your bigdawg web page favorite list are the farthest thing from heavens of respectful discussion. I'd say he opposite. People such as Ann coulter made a name for themselves by being aggressive rude and making noise.
It makes your initial comments on respect and aggressive posting less effective.
Well, yeah, but his OP provides a conversational opening; and with the proper etiquette...I, for one, would welcome someone with such an attitude, into a political discussion (so long as Frank does not get upset when ppl say "that's the craziest idea I've ever heard!" ).
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Old 01-11-2007, 11:11 AM   #31
Mark Freeman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:

"If I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position!" "No it isn't! An argument is an intellectual process!" (sorry, couldn't help myself)

There are different ways to "harmonize." Fo instance, from my very first post on the 50+ page thread on Iraq in 2002 until well into 2004, I contended that there were no wmd's in Iraq.
Thanks for that link Neil, I haven't seen that in a while "classic"!

BTW is there anyone out there that still contends that there were wmd's in Iraq?

Political debate has to be healthy, the fact that we do and can, must be cherished and respected. What is the alternative, hitting each other with sticks?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:48 PM   #32
mriehle
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Thanks for that link Neil, I haven't seen that in a while "classic"!
Dagnabit! My browser won't do YouTube! Yet...

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
BTW is there anyone out there that still contends that there were wmd's in Iraq?
Sadly, yes. Some of them are my neigbors.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Political debate has to be healthy, the fact that we do and can, must be cherished and respected.
Absolutely. The key there is "debate" as opposed to "fight".

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
What is the alternative, hitting each other with sticks?
What, you don't do that in your school?

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Old 01-11-2007, 01:14 PM   #33
Mark Freeman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
Dagnabit! My browser won't do YouTube! Yet...
Get an upgrade Michael, you are missing out on sooo much

cheers

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-11-2007, 01:28 PM   #34
mriehle
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Get an upgrade Michael, you are missing out on sooo much

cheers

Mark
As it happens, I'm working on just that right now. Okay, it's part of a larger effort (building a workstation), but...

Actually I have no less than four computers I work with. It just happens the one I'm working on right at the moment has the broken browser.

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Old 01-11-2007, 02:09 PM   #35
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
....
Absolutely. The key there is "debate" as opposed to "fight".
...

I wonder about the term "debate". Debates normally have more formal rules than discussions and winners and losers. This forum doesn't have the formal rules that are intended to keep "debates" civil. I think having discussions without needing to win might be a less confrontational and more respectful communications style.

Mark
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:15 PM   #36
mriehle
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Yes, Mark, I think you may be correct.

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Old 01-11-2007, 02:42 PM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
BTW is there anyone out there that still contends that there were wmd's in Iraq?
As far as I know, no report has said definitively that there never were any WMD's in Iraq. The official reports were that they did not find any, after limited searching. If you think about it, no one with more than a double-digit IQ would be willing to say definitively that there were none in Iraq, since all the world's leading intelligence agencies said there were, all the records of WMD were destroyed by the Iraqis (this continued *after* the US has occupied Iraq, BTW), and various Iraqis have said that there were some. Not to mention a defector from Russian intelligence has said that the last-minute Russian teams in Iraq were to help them dispose of the WMD's. In other words, it's still a *debatable* topic and if WMD's did exist (and were moved to Syria, etc.), what would be the long-term consequences on any politician etc., who declared definitively that there were no such weapons. His/her career would be cut short if they ever came to light. Notice, for instance, that Hillary Clinton, among a number of others, is very careful in what she says about WMD's.

Now... back to your question, which was, "is there anyone out there that still contends that there were wmd's in Iraq?". Are you saying definitively that there were NO WMD's in Iraq and that the issue is settled? Or are we just going on a "feeling" that there must have been none, period? Perhaps you're willing to stipulate that nothing definitive has been proven one way or the other?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:44 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote:
I wonder about the term "debate". Debates normally have more formal rules than discussions and winners and losers. This forum doesn't have the formal rules that are intended to keep "debates" civil. I think having discussions without needing to win might be a less confrontational and more respectful communications style.
"A bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out. Quelle surprise". -Chas Clements
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:03 PM   #39
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"A bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out. Quelle surprise". -Chas Clements

It would be in my experience. Most folks I've played with are very polite. We even have discussions without too much arm twisting. There's always some background level of sankyo among the married and dating however.


Mark
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:09 PM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
If you think about it, no one with more than a double-digit IQ would be willing to say definitively that there were none in Iraq, since all the world's leading intelligence agencies said there were...
Well, I don't particularly have a dog in this, uh, fight...uh, discussion, but...weren't these major intelligence agencies also claiming that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa? If they were so wrong about that...not saying there weren't WMDs, but I'd sure like a better source than the same spuds who came up with that idea...

Best,
Ron

I always liked that quote from Chas...how's he doing these days anyway???

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-11-2007, 06:46 PM   #41
Mark Freeman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As far as I know, no report has said definitively that there never were any WMD's in Iraq. The official reports were that they did not find any, after limited searching. If you think about it, no one with more than a double-digit IQ would be willing to say definitively that there were none in Iraq, since all the world's leading intelligence agencies said there were, all the records of WMD were destroyed by the Iraqis (this continued *after* the US has occupied Iraq, BTW), and various Iraqis have said that there were some. Not to mention a defector from Russian intelligence has said that the last-minute Russian teams in Iraq were to help them dispose of the WMD's. In other words, it's still a *debatable* topic and if WMD's did exist (and were moved to Syria, etc.), what would be the long-term consequences on any politician etc., who declared definitively that there were no such weapons. His/her career would be cut short if they ever came to light. Notice, for instance, that Hillary Clinton, among a number of others, is very careful in what she says about WMD's.

Now... back to your question, which was, "is there anyone out there that still contends that there were wmd's in Iraq?". Are you saying definitively that there were NO WMD's in Iraq and that the issue is settled? Or are we just going on a "feeling" that there must have been none, period? Perhaps you're willing to stipulate that nothing definitive has been proven one way or the other?

Regards,

Mike
I'm not sure that this debate has much to do with the thread topic, however, I doubt if there will ever be a definitive report stating that there were no wmd's, too much egg on too many faces I would have thought that with the US military spy satelites that can read a cars number plate from space, that they might have spotted a convoy of escaping weapons on their way to Syria or anywhere else?
Until someone comes up with some proof that there were wmd's there. I'll stick with thinking that they weren't, and that the 'intelligence' was suspect. There have been enough Brit intel personnel who have broken ranks and said as much.
Coalition forces have been there for nearly 4 years now, you'd think that they might have turned up something by now wouldn't you?

But then, what would I know?

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-11-2007, 07:08 PM   #42
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I'm not sure that this debate has much to do with the thread topic, however, I doubt if there will ever be a definitive report stating that there were no wmd's, too much egg on too many faces I would have thought that with the US military spy satelites that can read a cars number plate from space, that they might have spotted a convoy of escaping weapons on their way to Syria or anywhere else?
I only mentioned it because of your trivializing the idea that someone would seriously think there may have been WMD's in Iraq. One of the assistant Department of the Army guys said it outright when he retired, talking about satellite photos exactly as you mentioned. Then there's these:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/...es/007645.php]
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...7/141224.shtml
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=21489.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...%27s+%2B+syria
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=38581

The interesting part is how this information is either not reported or relegated to the back page with little coverage by the liberal press... leaving the impression among people like you, that the WMD question is over and Blair and Bush were evil. Actually, the liberal media is the evil one, as far as I can tell. They propagandize... and it appears that it works, eh?
Quote:
Until someone comes up with some proof that there were wmd's there. I'll stick with thinking that they weren't, and that the 'intelligence' was suspect. There have been enough Brit intel personnel who have broken ranks and said as much.
Coalition forces have been there for nearly 4 years now, you'd think that they might have turned up something by now wouldn't you?
How do they "turn up" something that's in Syria? Essentially, as I see it, there are 3 choices: believe that there were WMD's, believe that there weren't WMD's, or believe that the topic is unsettled. I go with the last choice. I don't trivialize people for believing what they want on the subject, Mark.

Besides, the part that has always intrigued me is that for there to have been no WMD's means that someone as nasty as Saddam willingly and surreptitiously destroyed all of the very weapons that kept him on a power binge. Frankly, I find it difficult to buy into that absurd idea, yet that has to be the cornerstone reasoning if you believe there were absolutely no WMD's.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-11-2007, 07:12 PM   #43
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
particularly have a dog in this, uh, fight...uh, discussion, but...weren't these major intelligence agencies also claiming that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa? If they were so wrong about that...not saying there weren't WMDs, but I'd sure like a better source than the same spuds who came up with that idea...
Er, Ron.... Joe Wilson lied. In order to avoid being tagged with perjury, he told the Senate Intelligence Committee that he "misspoke" in the famous NYTimes article. Saddam did try to buy uranium, it turns out... although the media definitely didn't play that story up.
Quote:
I always liked that quote from Chas...how's he doing these days anyway???
Well... I think he's scraping by, Ron.

Best.

Mike
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:15 PM   #44
Neil Mick
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
weren't these major intelligence agencies also claiming that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa?
Correct, Ron. And, of course, there were a slew of rightwing bloggers and blatherers who attempted (and failed) to debunk Wilson's story by throwing up falsehoods and doubletalk. You can see some of the falsehoods themselves debunked, here, and here.

But even if you pooh-pooh the link: then how come a two-year investigation by U.S. attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald into the matter revealed nothing? Last I checked, lying before a Senate Committee is grounds for perjury. Why isn't Wilson up on charges?

But, never mind. This is all off-topic, and I am guilty as everyone in pursuing the matter. I only mentioned wmd's because almost everyone (without axes to grind) all agree that there weren't wmd's.

If we want to talk about wmd's, someone post a thread and I'll be glad to smash a few more strawmen...it makes my day.

Till then, can we pls stay on the topic of respect (self, included)?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-11-2007 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:33 PM   #45
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Why isn't Wilson up on charges?
Very simple and it's on the record. When confronted with the truth, Wilson said, "I misspoke", knowing that if he continued the lie he'd be in jail. Of course, lies and law-breaking mean little if a the liberal media is reporting on a fellow liberal, so this part was dropped almost immediately and not given the day-to-day coverage that would have happened if a Republican had done it. Still... it's on the record, even in the Washington Post. Once again, Neil tries to slip a lie past the readers.
Quote:
But, never mind. This is all off-topic,
Oh, of course... let's drop what Wilson is on record of saying in front of the Select Senate Intelligence Committee.... it's a trifle embarrassing because so many Dem's hold up Wilson as a hero.

Regards,

Mike (of course, I know Neil doesn't read these things, because he says so, if you believe him)
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Old 01-12-2007, 12:26 AM   #46
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Hey Neil, I'm glad you didn't take my message the wrong way. I gave it a lot of thought last night and wondered why it struck a chord with me. Was it because our views are so different and I was posting out of personal conflict? I don't think so because I'm finding I agree with a lot of your points.
In the end I think it's because of your delievery. When you see a new message by Neil Mick you can pretty much guess what it's about and your stance on the issue.
I've caught myself responding to some of your political posts (drawn in may be a better word heh) but as you can probabably tell I won't commit to much of the fight. I'm a political light weight where as it's your focus, I know when to pick my battles

As for the WMD issue, I think it was pretty obvious from the start that it was a ploy to get our soldiers on the ground and the citizens behind them.
The government assumed there were WMD so they went in crossing their fingers. How many agencies admitted to bending their intelligence reports or making claims up?
We invaded because of "good" intelligence from places like Pakastan? Crazy. The government wanted to go in so they applied pressure and made it happen.

Suggesting just because we didnt find WMD doesn't mean they were there, to me, is a cop out.
Thats like a cop kicking down my door because the previous owners were drug dealers and saying they heard from people on the street my house was a drug house and just because they didnt find any drugs there, doesn't mean I didn't have any.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 01-12-2007, 04:33 AM   #47
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Suggesting just because we didnt find WMD doesn't mean they were there, to me, is a cop out.
Thats like a cop kicking down my door because the previous owners were drug dealers and saying they heard from people on the street my house was a drug house and just because they didnt find any drugs there, doesn't mean I didn't have any.
The principle you are driving at with this is a standard principle of simple inductive reasoning in regards to empirical claims. What the right is trying to perpetrate here is a standard logical fallacy, often called 'proving a negative'. A more accurate term would be, as this wiki guy coins it "the fallacy of appealing to lack of proof of the negative":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_...ogical_fallacy)

When someone makes a positive claim, the burden of proof is on them to support the claim, especially in the case of claims that are impossible to disprove, as is the case of WMD's in Iraq. To disprove the claim absolutely would require going back in time and scrutinizing 230,000 square miles of land inch by inch.

Trafficking in such fallacies and preying on their audience's ignorance of basic reasoning is standard operating procedure for right wing demagogues of precisely the breed I mentioned earlier. This issue is really not so off-topic. In my view, perpetrating fallacies with a bullyboy attitude is in itself a form of disrespect - at least to the intelligence of whomever is supposed to be listening.
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Old 01-12-2007, 05:08 AM   #48
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_...gical_fallacy)

Just noticed that the board software butchered the link. Hope this works.
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Old 01-12-2007, 06:02 AM   #49
Guilty Spark
 
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Location: Flordia
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Wow dude I had to read that like 4 times.
You're agreeing with me right?

Good point about having to go back and check every single mile.
It's impossible to disprove iraq doesn't have some kinda WMD sitting under 20 miles of sand in a box marked UN releif fund so the arguemnt that just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it's not there doesn't hold a lot of water.

Besides, if we DID find some kinda naughty thing in Iraq and it dated back to the 80s we probably wouldn't have to look very far from home to find who sold it to them, unfortinuately.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-12-2007, 08:07 AM   #50
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

What's interesting to me is to see this continued insistence and trivialization of even the idea that there might have been some WMD's... i.e., the matter is not resolved. Every intelligence service in the world said the same thing, facts like the data in post 42 have come up, and so on... the insistence doesn't stop. It's like watching some experiment in psychology. But the whole anti-Bush, hate-America thing folds if there were WMD's so it's better to not say "maybe", isn't it? Although...... it is sort of dishonest to maintain the position that "no wmd's" has somehow been proved, isn't it?

Mike
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