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Old 06-23-2019, 10:59 PM   #1
gezznz
Dojo: Kyu Shin Do Aikido/Auckland
Location: Auckland
Join Date: May 2019
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New Zealand
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Re: It Had to Be Felt #24: Chiba Kazuo: "There We Were, Two Handsome Young Men"

[Note: this post was taken from the "It Had to Be Felt" thread It Had to Be Felt #24: Chiba Kazuo: "There We Were, Two Handsome Young Men"]

Hmmm, a teacher who has to apologise to his students forty years later. Sensei Ken Williams (the one whose wrist was broken by Chiba) broke my forearm in nikkyo, but it was not done in violence, and he was visibly remorseful. It was my fault any way, as I did not yield to the pain, and we were doing an exercise in taking more of the stretch. But pure violence by the teacher is now called by its true name - abuse.

Last edited by akiy : 06-24-2019 at 01:32 AM.

Best regards,
Gerald
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www.mindbodyaikido.com
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:37 AM   #2
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
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Germany
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Re: It Had to Be Felt #24: Chiba Kazuo: "There We Were, Two Handsome Young Men"

Quote:
Gerald Lopez wrote: View Post

Sensei Ken Williams (the one whose wrist was broken by Chiba)
As Henry has explained, the wrist was not broken, it was a misunderstanding.
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Old 06-24-2019, 01:25 PM   #3
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

I know of two people, now quite senior in the aikido world, who can't straighten their arms, two or three decades after their last exposure to this teacher...

Alex
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Old 06-26-2019, 07:57 PM   #4
mathewjgano
 
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Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

FWIW...I suspect anyone who broke someone's anything in training made a mistake. Feeling is as important as doing I believe. I could have been broken so many ways if not for the awareness of my partners. Thank you to them for not assuming I was good enough to avoid it.
However, sometimes mistakes are made. I once broke my own bone. I know well-meaning people who accidentally got broken too.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 06-26-2019 at 08:04 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:16 AM   #5
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
FWIW...I suspect anyone who broke someone's anything in training made a mistake. Feeling is as important as doing I believe. I could have been broken so many ways if not for the awareness of my partners. Thank you to them for not assuming I was good enough to avoid it.
However, sometimes mistakes are made. I once broke my own bone. I know well-meaning people who accidentally got broken too.
Ellis Amdur has some thought-provoking observations on intention to harm, versus mistake:

IHTBF on Kazuo Chiba

Alex
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:28 PM   #6
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

It's easy to pass judgement on a dead man that you have zero personal experience with.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 07-04-2019, 01:35 PM   #7
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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England
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

To Gerald Lopez:

I am replying to your comment for the benefit of those that may/ or have been misled by your statement.

I note, you quote my article on the early UK Aikido days with K Chiba Sensei.
I was most surprised that you mistakenly state " Sensei Ken Williams ( the one whose wrist was broken by Chiba ).
I wrote this article almost ten years ago (?) so, I re-read the article, to try to understand how you were able to make such a ridiculous statement.
It is quite clear from the article that Chiba Sensei assumed he had broken KW wrist from the letter that KW wrote to M Nakazono Sensei ( AikiKai European Representative ) who then reported the alleged incident to OSensei Ueshiba.

We ( H Ellis - H Foster - D Eastman ) were not aware of the letter to Nakazono Sensei, the three of us informed Chiba Sensei that the day after his visit, KW was on the mat teaching and practising Aikido and not a band aid in sight.
With regard to a misunderstanding, K Chiba never saw the letter, nor did he ever receive a copy.
I actually asked Jei Nakazono if he has the said letter in his fathers files, he replied he knew nothing of the letter.

Henry Ellis
Co-author ` Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com

Last edited by Hellis : 07-04-2019 at 01:37 PM. Reason: mistake
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Old 07-04-2019, 01:47 PM   #8
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
It's easy to pass judgement on a dead man that you have zero personal experience with.
Are you accusing someone in particular of passing judgement?

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 07-04-2019 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:51 PM   #9
gezznz
Dojo: Kyu Shin Do Aikido/Auckland
Location: Auckland
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

Dear Henry Ellis,

Thank you for clarifying the issue. I apologise for the "misquote" which may have resulted from reading too quickly (while also fielding numerous emails etc.).

I appreciate the enormous value you may have gained from Chiba Sensei, and I do not wish to disparage the experience you had with him.

My main point was that negligent or intentional injury of students is no longer acceptable within the modern context.

Best regards,
Gerald
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:16 AM   #10
philipsmith
Dojo: Ren Shin Kan
Location: Birmingham
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Re: On Chiba Kazuo

I feel |I must add my observations here.I began my training with Chiba Sensei at the age of 12 (in 1970) and did so for the remainder of his active Aikido life. Yes he was a severe teacher and his Aikido reflected that but my personal experience was that he was also a compassionate individual who cared deeply for his students. Any injuries I received from him were not deliberate but you always "lived on the edge" during ukeme. i cherish my time with him and miss him both as an Aikdoka and a person.As is often the case the reputation does not fully reflect the reality
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