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Old 04-14-2017, 02:08 AM   #1
Ellis Amdur
 
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John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Some years ago, John Driscoll published two seminal essays on the history and substance of aikido technique. They are still on this site. At my request, he rewrote them, and combined them in a single article.

The two essays are now combined in one, extensively rewritten, entitled: Reflections on The Origin of Ueshiba Morihei's Koshinage & The Relationship of Daito-ryu and Aikido Waza

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Old 04-15-2017, 09:07 PM   #2
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

It has always been my understanding that koshi-guruma of Judo is like Aikido koshi-nage. In Judo I was taught that koshi-guruma was like a wheel and that you should not lift with the legs at all. The T shape is not essential but it is sometimes used in Judo for koshi-guruma and uki-goshi. Even in Judo, kata-guruma is also best done more like a wheel than as a lift. I never thought there would be anything special about koshi-guruma, but certainly, to lift in Aikido is considered wrong as it is not koshi-guruma but more like O-goshi. But to be fair, there is nothing wrong with O-goshi - it is just important to distinguish. When I had a club I always taught both - so as to distinguish.

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Old 04-16-2017, 12:13 PM   #3
John Driscoll
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Rupert, I appreciate your comments. For purposes of the discussion I am making the assumption you have a strong background in both Aikido and Judo. One point you make is there is no significant difference in nage positioning his/her feet between those of uke in a "T" configuration and a parallel configuration. The foot positions do effect kake. How do you employ hip rotation moving along a plane that is parallel to the ground and is generated by weight shift from the leg closest to uke to the leg positioned further from uke with the feet of nagebinside and generally parallel to those of uke? As you are aware based upon the analysis of Geof Gleason, the brilliant British judoka, regarding the use of full hip throws vis-a-vis half hips throws, i.e., ogoshi and ukigoshi, raises another interesting question. Explain how a "full hip" throw can be used on an uke who is standing relatively erect? Lastly, what is the difference in the generation of centripetal force in the koshinage of Aikido compared to koshiguruma of Judo?
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:08 PM   #4
Cliff Judge
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Mr. Driscoll,

Your analysis of Daito Ryu's koshiguruma kata assumes them to be more immutable than they are as studied.

Quote:
The second koshiguruma appears in the nikajo series of the Hiden Mokuroku, and is a response to a yokomen attack. Nage enters and turns, as uke strikes yokomen with his right hand. Nage traps uke’s right arm with his left arm, and uke’s left leg, with his right arm, loading and binding uke across his hips. Nage straightens his legs, lifting uke and turning, before dropping uke to nage’s direct rear. The version of koshiguruma lacks the extension of uke as in Ueshiba’s koshinage, and requires lifting to affect the technique. Additionally, nage enters with a double, turning step, continuing the turning of his body with uke extended across the hip, resulting in uke being thrown behind nage. (Both koshinage variations can be seen in Kondo Katusyuki Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu)
When I was introduced to this kata, I was taught that the loading on the hips was not necessary. This follows from the earlier koshiguruma which involves nage trying to keep the hip contact as light as possible. So you have a wide range of acceptable amounts of hip-loading in a very dynamic technique; It similarly follows that, while the "demonstration version" of the kata requires entry and throw at specific angles, the true intention of the kata is to adapt to the circumstances of the encounter.

If you look at this kata assuming that the amounf of hip loading varies from full loading or uke's weight to barely brushing contact, and the amount of turning that nage does as they move through the technique as similarly variant, Ueshiba's koshinage is simply one version of koshiguruma.

I think this is a general problem with your analysis - you are looking at techniques and kata in far too rigid terms, both on the koryu side and the Aikido side.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 04-16-2017 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:30 PM   #5
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

John, I did Judo for about 20 years and Aikido 37 thus far. One particular variant of uki-goshi I like might explain. I have never seen anyone else do it and I kinda discovered it myself. Or maybe I merged it from Aikido. Anyway, single hip uki-ogoshi = you move in about and inch away from uke, and make him come towards your hip (arm around his waist - draw him in). When he is against your hip, you lean away about 30 degrees maybe (T shape, doesn't have to be a perfect T), and this takes the weight off of his feet slightly or totally - you have to press him against your hip firmly with your arm. There is no lifting from the legs - uke is floating a bit. Then, rotate the hip in such a way that uke's legs are swept behind yourself, rotate the hips is a small fast, tight circle, and uke will spin 270 on the spot around the point of contact, if you get it right; it will happen so fast he won't know what happened and he will get up smiling. If not 270, then 90 to the floor. Of course, you can lift with the legs a bit but uke always expects that, so rotate before that and you will catch him not ready. The spin rotates him fast and the fall is hard. It will only work fast.

I'm not sure if I answered your question ... but somehow ... it is like koshi-nage except just as he is falling towards you, you switch his direction 90 to the front.

I have only ever been taught uki-goshi in the Kyushin school of Judo in the UK. Never saw it anywhere else (except in kata).They just did it like a half-normal O-goshi on one hip. Mine's starts like that then rotates uke 90 degrees - along his strong line - which is not strong anymore as he has no weight on his feet.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 04-16-2017 at 07:39 PM.

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Old 04-16-2017, 09:14 PM   #6
John Driscoll
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Rupert, what you are describing is the ukigoshi as Kano Jigoro employed the technique. (See the photograph of Kano performing ukigoshi appearing in the article.) It is a very sound technique! The kake is not the kake of Ueshiba's koshinage, nor is it the kake of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu techinque, kinukatsugi. Both use the circular dynamics of the hip rotating along a plane parallel to the ground. The real essence of the technique is the weight shift created by the opening of the kua (inguinal fold) as the hip closest to uke opens and the hip furthest from use closes. Believe me, I've spent a significant amount of time trying to find that particular movement within Kodokan Judo, Daito-ryu, and other arts studied by Ueshiba to no avail with the exception of kinukatsugi of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. If it can be found in a nagewaza of Kodokan Judo, we would need to determine if the technique was taught to Ueshibs during his study of "Kito-ryu." Again thank you for your comments. As an aside I had the pleasure of visiting New Zealand for a month in May 2001 - what a gorgeous country! Do you live on the north or the south island?
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:51 PM   #7
John Driscoll
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Cliff, thanks for your comments!

First, while I am definitely an old coger, I hope I don't come off as such a curmudgeon requiring you to refer to me as Mr. Driscoll! Please refer to me as John. If we met face to face I would tell you that Mr. Driscoll, my father, is wyling away eternity in the Greenwood Cemetery in New Orleans, Louisiana, USA.

It I understand your description of the koshinage in Daito-ryu, you are describing my discussion of the effect of tempo regarding koshinage. If the tempo increases, the koshinage becomes a kokyunage.

Since it appears you are a practitioner of Daito-ryu, here is a question for you. Is there a technique in Daito-ryu wherein nage (shite, etc.) aligns his/her hips to form a cross with the back of his/her loins contacting the front abdomen of uke such that uke is thrown by the rotation of the loins of nage along a plane parallel to the ground as a result of the weight of nage shifting from the leg closest to uke to the leg of nage furthest from uke as a result of the opening and closing of the inguinal folds?

If there is, please advise the name of the technique and where I can locate a video of the technique. Then the question becomes was the technique incorporated into Daito-ryu as a result of Ueshiba's interaction with Ueshiba, or was it part of the technical corpus of Daito-ryu prior to Takeda becoming associated with Ueshiba.

Please believe me when I say nothing in my analysis is a commentary on the effectiveness of any martial rye, rather it is simply an exercise in deductive reasoning in trying to determine the source of Ueshiba's koshingage and whether or not any martial system other than Daito-ryu is represented in the Aikido of Ueshiba. It is simply an exercise of applying Kano's kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake in analyzing any combative technique.

I should also point out Ueshiba categorized techniques as kata (basic, solid techniques), yawarakai (kata techniques applied in motion) and ki no nagger (techniques accomplished leading uke's ki). The classification of techniques is essentially the concept of Takemusuaiki and would be the subject of another essay.
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:07 PM   #8
Cliff Judge
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Hi John,

Unfortunately, injuries have kept me away from Aiki training for awhile now and I have been focusing on sword.

The perpendicular koshinage comes from that second koshiguruma. Either its a direct descendant or they are cousin techniques with a common antecedent. If you are taught it with a background in Aikido its pretty obvious, similar to how ippon dori and ikkyo seem like variations of the same theme.

With regard to the technical elements you are asking about, that is definitely in there - though I am certain I was never taught to do the perpendicular koshinage that way in Aikido, but rather figured it out after a number of years.

The "What is Aiki" DVD that Kondo Sensei put out a few years ago has a bonus feature showing footage of one of the summer gassuku and you can see some students working on koshiguruma in there. It may appear as though the kata involves a full loading of uke onto nage's hips but again...if you work with it for awhile you realize it doesn't actually work that way, the movement of nage's hips and the transfer of uke's weight is more dynamic.

As I said I have been away from Daito Ryu for a couple of years now - I am fairly certain that if I were to join training again, I would find that kata I am familiar with are now trained and taught differently, with different form, tactical explanation, and performance expectations for embu or testing. There can be such a huge drift in the types of technical details that your analysis focuses on, that I think its fruitless to try to say "technique A is NOT technique B." It probably works better the other way - noting similarities and speculating as to common origins, a la your original essay from a couple of years ago. But, as someone who has done a number of different arts, I caution that even when you find similarities, its generally useless for training purposes.
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:24 PM   #9
John Driscoll
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Cliff, I was unable to locate the video of the training you mentioned, but have found a source of the DVD. I've ordered the DVD and was advised it will take several weeks to arrive. Once I have a chance to look at the koshinage, I'll post my thoughts. Thanks for the additional information.
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:35 PM   #10
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Just a thought: koshinage - as we know it - is uncommon in Judo probably because it is not so effective. Whey would that be? In Judo, while I think a standing armlock is still 'on the books', you are not allowed to use it for a takedown or a throw. In Aikido we often do koshinage with a careful shiho-nage or sankyo tweak (it's always their turn next), raising uke up, so we have no need to lift with the legs etc. thus for us the throw is effective. As a follow-up thereon, to do koshinage with no tweak - just flow - is probably - not going to be effective.

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Old 04-19-2017, 08:38 PM   #11
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Just a thought: koshinage - as we know it - is uncommon in Judo probably because it is not so effective. Whey would that be? In Judo, while I think a standing armlock is still 'on the books', you are not allowed to use it for a takedown or a throw. In Aikido we often do koshinage with a careful shiho-nage or sankyo tweak (it's always their turn next), raising uke up, so we have no need to lift with the legs etc. thus for us the throw is effective. As a follow-up thereon, to do koshinage with no tweak - just flow - is probably - not going to be effective.
Yes. This is what I learned, also, and this is also why I look back with fond memories on the years I spent at Ryushinkan in London with M Kanetsuka.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 04-19-2017, 09:36 PM   #12
Cliff Judge
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Just a thought: koshinage - as we know it - is uncommon in Judo probably because it is not so effective. Whey would that be? In Judo, while I think a standing armlock is still 'on the books', you are not allowed to use it for a takedown or a throw. In Aikido we often do koshinage with a careful shiho-nage or sankyo tweak (it's always their turn next), raising uke up, so we have no need to lift with the legs etc. thus for us the throw is effective. As a follow-up thereon, to do koshinage with no tweak - just flow - is probably - not going to be effective.
With regard to what I learned in Daito Ryu, there were a number of throws that required uke's body to be locked up to what I would characterize as an "incredibly severe" extent. In training the kata are typically modified to allow ukemi to be taken - you should be able to find example video of the elder Kondo Sensei talking about this with regard to shihonage.

In application, you are not likely to get someone locked up to this extent in a mutual grappling scenario. They need to be all-out trying to kill you with an attack, and you need to let that attack develop quite a bit before entering. Its just not going to happen if you are already hands-on and they can feel you.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:26 AM   #13
MrIggy
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Great thread, i have a couple of questions:

1. It's written in your essay:

"The second koshiguruma appears in the nikajo series of the Hiden Mokuroku, and is a response to a yokomen attack. Nage enters and turns, as uke strikes yokomen with his right hand. Nage traps uke's right arm with his left arm, and uke's left leg, with his right arm, loading and binding uke across his hips."

Would this be a typo? Because in both videos that i have looked Nage actually traps Uke's right leg with his right arm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRTye-wq5yI - at 46:31

and it's even more evident in the Katcuyuki Kondo video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0az6iuLOCo&t=3706s - at 1:17:36

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. In the Yagyu shingan ryu Arakido 2 video, i have noticed a technique very similar to the first Daito ryu Koshiguruma in the Kondo video, it's called hijigaeshi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp0cXU7AT-0&t=15 - at 4:36

from the videos the main differences would be the lack of atemi and hip touching in the hijigaeshi technique but in the hand and leg movement they seem to resemble each other very closely, what's your opinion on it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. For the technique #96 from "Budo Renshu":

This is the video in which Yoshio Kuroiwa demonstrates his variation of the technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qt8DQ3ATek - at 4:44

this is another video of a similar technique being presented here as ganseki o toshi, i know the technique under the name kiri o toshi, would you say that both techniques in both videos are influenced by technique #96:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR-oO8SjMyQ - at 0:06 - 0:10

Three variations are presented in this video. The second one seems to be the closest to technique #96

This is for the first part of the essay for which i agree that Yagyu shingan ryu's kinukatsugi seems to be the origin of O'Sensei's koshinage.
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:50 AM   #14
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Corrected the typo re right leg - Thank you for the catch.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 04-21-2017, 06:46 PM   #15
John Driscoll
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Re: John Driscoll's Work Lives Again

Igor, first thank your your observations and comments. I am answering them in the same order that you presented them in your post.

1. Yes, the description of the koshinage appearing in the Nikajo series was described incorrectly. The correct description id the right arm of nage controls the right leg of uke. (It has been corrected by Ellis in the essay posted on Kogen Budo.) Good catch! It's amazing what a fresh pair of eyes can find.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. The referenced Yagyu Shingan-ryu Arakido 2 video, appears similar to the first Daito-ryu koshiguruma in the Ikajo series. Nage pivots on his left leg to place his right leg in a position in front of uke's right leg to block the forward movement of uke. (I presume the lack of hip contact is intentional as the nage is the former soke of the ryu.) Nage completes the technique driving the upper torso of uke beyond his base. Kondo's koshiguruma hip contact with uke is very similar to that of the ukigoshi of Judo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Technique #96 and Gansekiotoshi: The first variation is projection #24 in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere. The second technique is definitely the koshinage of Kuroiwa and technique #96 in Budo Renshu.

If you think about the order in which the Gansekiotoshi variations are presented, the order is a kokyunage morphing into a koshinage. The relationship of the two throws is a classic example of the connection of kokyunage techniques and koshinage.
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