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Old 07-26-2009, 11:33 AM   #276
jss
Location: Rotterdam
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well, the fact is that all the "forms" of aiki taiso follow the shapes of and implement 3D shear dynamics.
<snip>
The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.
So are you saying that the point of the aiki taiso is to learn how to apply shear to someone else's structure? Or does this way of moving also strengthen one's own structure against shear?
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:42 AM   #277
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
As usual, you're off into the personal stuff, Rob. I pass. Good luck with your training.
Maybe it was just my wicked sense of humor. I'm all for leaving things in the past.

Why not contribute skills you found valuable from your study of jin/whatever you call that skills set?

Rob
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:49 AM   #278
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Aikido without a baseline of internal strength is no good; internal strength...This was the beauty of the cosmology and the reason why all things came under the umbrella of Yin-Yang... The Chinese of old would have argued that waht Ueshiba did was merely an aspect of the same hua-jin, etc., "
I love language just like anyone one else. I use creative language myself all the time. But, I think there is a point where such language is ineffective. Especially translated languages combined with other languages that result in obscuring and befuddling the meaning, ideas, in this case principles. Or abstract language mixed with technical language. Sometimes I think this happens because there is lack of understanding of principles and languages.

If I was being orientated to a new dialect or nomenclature or jargon in a field I wasn't familiar with I would be caught up in not knowing what the meanings behind the codes meant. I would try and associate the language for the sake of the meaning to things I was familiar with. I might be taken by the language and feel what I am learning is unique. Getting information that, I didn't know about feeling it was new and then feeling as if I was missing something. This is happening, as a result of my immediate inability of not being able to decode the language completely or precisely of the meaning. Once I get familiar with the code I then make better associations with my own language. The more precise and accurate, and familiar associations to the meaning in my own language I am then able to translate the code to my language.

What does this have to do with Aikido and missing something, and with what Mike said? Well, when we get caught up in the art of language especially a foreign translated one that is designed to be obscure, not easily decoded, rooted in an unfamiliar pattern of expression and thinking we fail to completely associate and thus understand what it is we are suppose to. So then we are missing something, complete understanding.

Mike provides me with a good example of this as he uses coded language. Language rooted in Chinese thought and mysticism; much like that of Aikido. It is a language that is designed and intended to be obscure, hiding core principles or essential instrument (deemed as secrets) in coded language. And that obscurity can be compounded by things like translation.

One may think hey, I am missing something, in my Aikido. My teacher or my style may lack it or they are not telling me. Mike and others coming from a different tradition say here it is, and its delivery system is language initially or integrated and is coded as well. That happens by default, ignorance or what ever, but it happens.

But, if decode the language and associate to a familiar knowledge base we realize we are not missing a thing. What was missing was, like I said before, on realizing where our focus is place upon. For example, the term internal and the concept connected are nothing more then physics explained in a less precise and obscure language. Study and apply the principles of physics- mechanics, anatomy etc. and you will find the hidden buried secret booty.

Those who specialized in martial ways being famous teachers whose ideas are past down for centuries are rooted in the past. In a time where physics and such understand was not existence. In times where things like the sciences, chemistry, medicine and engineering where taking their first steps toward what we achieved today. Those people back then where as knowledgeable or have the resources or the availability, much less the precise and accurate language, we have today, in modern times.

Now to their credit they discovered applications and stuff that are mechanical that work on those principles. It's all there. There is a limit to the human body and how it can be manipulated. There are just so many of those principles in physics that apply to the body. So it is all there. It is more for me a matter to drop the coded language not focus on that and focus on the art. It is all there waiting to be discovered, or should I say re-discovered.

For some they want the spoon-feeding method of teaching. That is fine, but the run the risk of being dependent on that method, and shall question, no matter what secret is reveled to them and by who, are them missing something, when in fact they aren't missing anything at all.

In the elementary stages of learning the spoon-feeding can be useful for development and further study and learning. But it's only function is an instrument for the bigger picture. And isn't the only method of study and learning. And as the old Chinese proverb goes, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

I see greater potential with teaching methods that are self-sufficient models rather than the dependent models. That way the questions lead to a greater and deeper learning experience where you don't ask yourself what are you missing and subscribing to dependency approach type of thingy and stuff.

Because the self- sufficient models have proven to be successful for all those great martial artists in the past, and among other things, it will be a benefit to those thinking they are missing something and re-placing their focus.

*The spoon-feeding teaching creates a dependency upon the teacher to provide information on a constant basis. It restricts the student from discovery, research skills, and independent thought and study. Something that is required of student by many good Universities. The higher the degree the more this approach is required of the student.

I would like to recognize Mike with the greatest respect, and not intent to debate or disrespect his comments.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:57 AM   #279
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I love language just like anyone one else. I use creative language myself all the time. But, I think there is a point where such language is ineffective. Especially translated languages combined with other languages that result in obscuring and befuddling the meaning, ideas, in this case principles. Or abstract language mixed with technical language. Sometimes I think this happens because there is lack of understanding of principles and languages.

If I was being orientated to a new dialect or nomenclature or jargon in a field I wasn't familiar with I would be caught up in not knowing what the meanings behind the codes meant. I would try and associate the language for the sake of the meaning to things I was familiar with. I might be taken by the language and feel what I am learning is unique. Getting information that, I didn't know about feeling it was new and then feeling as if I was missing something. This is happening, as a result of my immediate inability of not being able to decode the language completely or precisely of the meaning. Once I get familiar with the code I then make better associations with my own language. The more precise and accurate, and familiar associations to the meaning in my own language I am then able to translate the code to my language.

What does this have to do with Aikido and missing something, and with what Mike said? Well, when we get caught up in the art of language especially a foreign translated one that is designed to be obscure, not easily decoded, rooted in an unfamiliar pattern of expression and thinking we fail to completely associate and thus understand what it is we are suppose to. So then we are missing something, complete understanding.

Mike provides me with a good example of this as he uses coded language. Language rooted in Chinese thought and mysticism; much like that of Aikido. It is a language that is designed and intended to be obscure, hiding core principles or essential instrument (deemed as secrets) in coded language. And that obscurity can be compounded by things like translation.

One may think hey, I am missing something, in my Aikido. My teacher or my style may lack it or they are not telling me. Mike and others coming from a different tradition say here it is, and its delivery system is language initially or integrated and is coded as well. That happens by default, ignorance or what ever, but it happens.

But, if decode the language and associate to a familiar knowledge base we realize we are not missing a thing. What was missing was, like I said before, on realizing where our focus is place upon. For example, the term internal and the concept connected are nothing more then physics explained in a less precise and obscure language. Study and apply the principles of physics- mechanics, anatomy etc. and you will find the hidden buried secret booty.

Those who specialized in martial ways being famous teachers whose ideas are past down for centuries are rooted in the past. In a time where physics and such understand was not existence. In times where things like the sciences, chemistry, medicine and engineering where taking their first steps toward what we achieved today. Those people back then where as knowledgeable or have the resources or the availability, much less the precise and accurate language, we have today, in modern times.

Now to their credit they discovered applications and stuff that are mechanical that work on those principles. It's all there. There is a limit to the human body and how it can be manipulated. There are just so many of those principles in physics that apply to the body. So it is all there. It is more for me a matter to drop the coded language not focus on that and focus on the art. It is all there waiting to be discovered, or should I say re-discovered.

For some they want the spoon-feeding method of teaching. That is fine, but the run the risk of being dependent on that method, and shall question, no matter what secret is reveled to them and by who, are them missing something, when in fact they aren't missing anything at all.

In the elementary stages of learning the spoon-feeding can be useful for development and further study and learning. But it's only function is an instrument for the bigger picture. And isn't the only method of study and learning. And as the old Chinese proverb goes, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

I see greater potential with teaching methods that are self-sufficient models rather than the dependent models. That way the questions lead to a greater and deeper learning experience where you don't ask yourself what are you missing and subscribing to dependency approach type of thingy and stuff.

Because the self- sufficient models have proven to be successful for all those great martial artists in the past, and among other things, it will be a benefit to those thinking they are missing something and re-placing their focus.

*The spoon-feeding teaching creates a dependency upon the teacher to provide information on a constant basis. It restricts the student from discovery, research skills, and independent thought and study. Something that is required of student by many good Universities. The higher the degree the more this approach is required of the student.

I would like to recognize Mike with the greatest respect, and not intent to debate or disrespect his comments.
Well, in turn I'd suggest that what people understand in someone's writings depends on what their overall level of understanding is. Your suggestion is that you are not missing anything in your Aikido and that if there are any problems it must lie with someone else. Good for you. However, I think we had discussions along those lines a few years back, so to engage in that same discussion would be redundant all over again.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:12 PM   #280
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
No, not completely as much as I am able to understand the explanations
.
I see that we need a common starting point that everyone ( there will always be at least one who won't) can agree on. To keep it simple, I suggest the first 38 seconds of the following link as that starting point. This describes what is going on outside the body ( the body being the orange block in the video) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG8CAmszH0

The question is what is going on inside the body to redirect the force(s) applied outside the body to the ground without the body collapsing?

David
David,

I think I see the issue...

I can only speak for myself here, but I do believe that if you asked Mike, Dan, Akuzawa Sensei, or somehow had the chance to ask O-Sensei to look at the video you posted a link to, no one would agree that what is being described has anything to do with what we are talking about and doing. Now I am sure many of your apparent mindset would reply with, "But it must" due to the fact that these are proven scientific methods and not mere theories at work. However, as I mentioned before, "humors" were once the science of disease, the earth was at the center of the universe and well, there are so many The-one-and-only God's that they can no longer be counted, so go figure...

Perhaps you can see a benefit of breaking away from your implicit need for everyone to speak a language that you understand. I know it is one you believe with all your heart is the language of the components of force. This could be a first step towards letting go of ideas that are not working for you to achieve what others in this thread most assuredly already have. I would go as far as to say this isn't a matter of just speaking as we do, but more like you need to take off the rose colored glasses in order to see the roses.

I want to ground the conversation in both reality and Aikido. When I first met Abe Sensei he would always talk about "loosing your power" (chikara-ga-nai) to counter the natural human condition whereby there is no real ki or kokyu generation (Ki/Kokyu-ga-nai). So, as a method of following his instructions, we would constantly try to do that thing that all the seniors kept telling us to do... "relax." Of course telling someone to relax doesn't really do anything towards helping them do just that, nor does it aid in understanding "losing one's power" that is part of the oral teaching which accompanies the waza. Later on, when I was accepted as a student of O-Sensei's Misogi-no-Gyo, I was introduced to "genshoku-no-gyo" which is a dietary training focusing on major reduction in one's food intake and an elimination of meat from the diet.

This training is several layers deep, and in and of itself is only the first level teaching given to the "outside" students. By design this teaching strips the body of muscle power by reducing muscle mass by a considerable (even dangerous) amount. For me, this translated to going from a solid 180 lbs down to 135 lbs in about 5 weeks. Facebook friends can see some of this in my martial arts photos from back around 1993 to 1996. I am not talking about losing water weight here, like the BS weigh-in methods used in sporting events. This is a real tear down of the body, and if you were attached to your muscles as much as I was at the time, your mind and ego, too. After about 18 months and down to about 125 lbs, the teaching, "let go of physical power" has real meaning.

Note: The teaching was always the same. It didn't change to suit my level of understanding. However, the language needed to understand this training is nothing less than experience. What I described is again only the second level of the outer teaching. The oral teaching that accompanies this phase of training has to do with changing the makeup of one's blood to alter the exchange of O2-Co2 and alter one's brain function. It is also accompanied with an explanation of one of the non-physical components having to do with altering one's thoughts, dreams and powering-up the powerful visualizations that accompany the Chikon-Kishin-no-Gyo training. Simply speaking, I was told, if I wanted to understand O-Sensei's mindset as a first step towards understanding his martial art, I would have to eat the way he did to change my blood and brain function along the same lines. This goes much, much further, but I am not permitted to discuss deeper levels of this particular training.

The point of my explanation is that experience has taught me to follow the instructions in order to understand the instructions at some point later on. The instruction you keep receiving is go and train with some of the people with whom you are interested in having this conversation. Without that experience the conversation has no real use and is really just a waste of time, yours and anyone who really does have the goods and would love to share them with you...

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:22 PM   #281
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Shaun,

Do the people on that list:
- deliver force without committing weight?
- move freely without their balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
- have "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
- move so that their hips are not driving their power?
- successfully teach that to others in 5 years or so?

Or can you provide a list of valuable skills offered by the people on that *official* "list" and how long to acquire them?

Rob
Rob,

To be honest, you sound a bit like a "Stepford Wife" when you say ask me that. I simply don't define Aiki, nor Aikido in those terms. More than likely, none of my teachers would either.

Here is one for you, though:

When it comes to your questions, what do you honestly believe would be the answers if you had the chance to ask them of O-Sensei? I guess if you can't say what you think he might answer, observing O-Sensei's visual historical record, if I asked you the same questions about O-Sensei, how would you answer?

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:29 PM   #282
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Shaun.... aren't you getting a bit close to the "What would Jesus say..." sort of stuff. Nobody can claim to channel what Jesus would say, although many are sure they know the answer. I'd suggest that few of us are able to channel Ueshiba's position on things, either. How about some "how-to's" and other good stuff like that?

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:49 PM   #283
Ellis Amdur
 
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Genshoku no Gyo

Hi Shaun -
Question: I recall an interview with Abe Seiseki in which he stated that Ueshiba would eat brown rice when he visited him (sort of "since that's what you want me to do as your guest"), but that this was not a diet he followed otherwise.
Furthermore, in perhaps the same interview, Ueshiba complained to Abe that as he got old, his muscles were sagging - but, Abe notes, he could "pop" them in a remarkable way.
Finally, in John Steven's new book, there are pictures of Ueshiba, shirtless, from the 1950's, and we see a guy with a massive build, like a power-lifter who doesn't eat too many carbs - he's actually cut.

So the questions are:
1. Are you asserting that the genshoku diet was something that Ueshiba followed at a certain phase of his training?
OR
2. Although Ueshiba didn't follow it, Abe (and others) found this to be a very efficacious method to get a student to properly use their body in a way congruent with what Ueshiba was doing?
Best
Ellis Amdur

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Old 07-26-2009, 12:54 PM   #284
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Repugnant"? Ok, then, out of your own mouth...

I'm not sure where you're making the connection between my citing a statement by one philosopher and your uncle's madness. Perhaps your personal family tragedy has caused you to have an aversion to all things philosophical, much as someone who has lost a loved one in a plane crash might fear and hate all things relating to aviation. Much as I can sympathize with the feeling, and moreso with the events that give rise to it, I can't regard it as rational and sensible -- understandable, yes; sensible, no. I'm not telling you not to feel what you feel, but you might want to consider that your personal history is not shared by others, and that most others probably see some usefulness in philosophy. I'm not a navel-gazer, myself, but I find from time to time that a philosopher's words will help to distill or illuminate life experiences. Of course, without the life experiences to reflect on, it's all pretty empty to me. I find it very much like training in that regard: a whole lotta training, and then a little thinking to reflect on it (in terms of time spent), is about the right mix for me.

...and casual websearch on Barack Obama unveils that he is an illegal immigrant and an Islamist terrorist. Isn't the web wonderful?

Perhaps the joke is on the one who turned the subject to jokes in the first place.

Bless your heart!
Mary,

I don't know you, and you most certainly do not know me. I will refrain from replying to you in this thread, as from what I can tell you are seemingly more committed to meaningless attack and defense of issues and not really forwarding the topic. Perhaps you can take that as constructive criticism, but somehow I imagine, not...

However, should you care to drop that posture I may choose to chime back in, in your direction.

...best in training to you, and all.

PS - you were more than wrong in all of your stated assumptions. To illustrate the point, my uncle loved philosophy and was a much-beloved philosopher, musician, teacher, family man and all around person. What I said is that while it didn't prepare him for life, nor save his mind in the end, he never abandoned it, only revised it. As for me, I haven't abandoned philosophy by any means, as it is the crux around which I have built my life and martial arts practice. At the same time I am intimately aware that it is a crux, not a crutch with which I beat others over their head... at least any more...

As for your lame, "bless your heart" comment... Wouldn't that presuppose that I happen to have one? Like I said, you really don't know me at all...
.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:05 PM   #285
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
OK, the zombie master revives me. Beware.

First. The diagram is NOT doing what we are doing to the block (if it were another person). The model shown is a translation (against sliding friction) without rotation --whereas what we are (usually) doing is fundamentally a rotation (every several different types and cycles) but rotations nonetheless. How do you move a refrigerator single-handedly?

Vectors are harder in many respects because they involve an abstract force with an acceleration term, and are hard to "see" when acting in more than one plane. Moment just involves distance and mass, and rotations from one plane to another are relatively easy to "see." Rather than using the method of vectors -- use the method of moments to analyze it and see what you get. The most efficient method of moving any mass is by rotations -- either directly or indirectly.

Second-- the resistance in your scenario is from ground friction. Think about how to defeat the ground friction of the mass using cycles of motion. Think about how without pushing on anything you get a swing to swing higher. It is a critically resonant pulse. Do that to the mass. People in some respects are easier because they are reflexively responsive to resonant pulses. What is going on in the body to do those things reflects what is being done outside the body by doing them.




Ah... Erick!

You reminded me of what I wanted to add to my reply post to David. Simply why the whole point of either of your approaches fails...

Aikido is not one inanimate object moving another inanimate object. Nor is it one person moving an inanimate object. Aikido and Aiki is a holistic approach to one's entire universe where there is no movement between things as there is only one thing in any given state of existence. The moment that state ceases to exist is the moment where Aiki ceases to exist. What takes place at the moment of Aiki (practically viewed in physical confrontation) is a fundamental shift in the consciousness between two animate objects whereby the distance time and functional delay between the two objects is constantly approaching zero at the speed of light.

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:31 PM   #286
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I agree absolutely. There are not the end all or the complete art and anyone who thinks just because they have some internal-strength they're knowledgeable about Aikido (or other arts) is simply wrong. I mentioned this (modified) old saying a few times, some years ago: "Aikido without a baseline of internal strength is no good; internal strength without really knowing Aikido won't work, either.". Actually, I simply meant me putting the tips of my two fingers against you and pushing you easily off balance. In terms of 1-inch punches, I don't do 'em. If I'm playing with demos for funnsies, I use no-inch punch.
well, actually the no inch punch (no movement) was what I was describing...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
No movement, no momentum... that was my point. "Angular momentum" is a frippery when it comes to describing these skills; what body movements can't be described as angular-momentum? See?
True, but I was using Erick's term which you so like to wholly reject... Of course there is force, direction, acceleration and thereby momentum in all movement. However, my sense is that you wouldn't tend to describe IT in terms of those things. I wouldn't, either.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
These things are all one thing, Shaun. This was the beauty of the cosmology and the reason why all things came under the umbrella of Yin-Yang. You would argue that Ueshiba's "ai-ki" was something unique, yet he justified his ai-ki by referring to the Yin-Yang cosmology and the old Chinese texts. The Chinese of old would have argued that waht Ueshiba did was merely an aspect of the same hua-jin, etc., that has been present in various arts for a couple of thousand years.
I am not arguing for or against your point, Mike. I know that O-Sensei couched his teachings - in other words, what he said - in particular ways you describe. However, there are also two other ways he described the same thing, and those are simply much less known, the second of which was not couched in any such language. Why he did that is the key to understanding what he said at each level. In any case it is like trying to use yin-yang theory from both a Chinese and Japanese approach. In such a case one would fail because they are 180 degrees out of sync in terms of the direction of ki flow, one being counter clockwise and the other being clockwise. They both work when approaching a subject from one perspective or another, but you can not overlap them without complete conflict and contradiction. However, I think we might both agree that we are only talking about the internal steel structure of the building and not the building, itself.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Who's right? You have your opinion; I'd calmly place my chips on the "everything is the same thing" square.


FWIW

Mike
I am not really concerned so much with who is right, you or me. After all, you and I are not really significant in the greater scheme of Aikido, and most certainly not the greater scheme of CMA or JMA. However, since there are obviously different art forms, I still would like to have an answer from you and Dan and others as to what what is different, rather than what is the same. I mean both my apple and my desk are made up of atoms, but I simply find that the differences between these atoms are more important to me than the what is the same about them, especially around my favorite time of the day... dinner time!

...best in training to you and all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:47 PM   #287
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
In any case it is like trying to use yin-yang theory from both a Chinese and Japanese approach. In such a case one would fail because they are 180 degrees out of sync in terms of the direction of ki flow, one being counter clockwise and the other being clockwise.
That's not true, Shaun. It's an impossible statement.
Quote:
After all, you and I are not really significant in the greater scheme of Aikido, and most certainly not the greater scheme of CMA or JMA. However, since there are obviously different art forms,
As I've said, these things are the same things, Shaun. Chinese, Indian, Japanese... the basic principles are the same. Dressing a doll up in a kimono or in Taoist robes make look like "different things" to someone who is looking at the superficial... but the doll is a doll, regardless of the outward appearances. That's why Ueshiba used Chinese classical descriptions in his writings about Aikido... he saw no real difference. The principles are the same.

When I take a Chinese expert to watch some Japanese m.a.'s he watches for if/how they use ki/qi... it would never dawn on him that anyone would think the basic principles of ki/qi are different because of geography or culture.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:02 PM   #288
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Shaun.... aren't you getting a bit close to the "What would Jesus say..." sort of stuff. Nobody can claim to channel what Jesus would say, although many are sure they know the answer. I'd suggest that few of us are able to channel Ueshiba's position on things, either. How about some "how-to's" and other good stuff like that?

Best.

Mike Sigman
I hear ya Mike, and I don't disagree when it comes to much of what you said. However, if you told me something and said, tell it to every 100th person who asks and when asked by anyone else, couch it all in Chinese cosmology, and I did that, then isn't it more than likely that 99 out of 100 people whom I tell will not really know what it was you were saying? In any case, Rob seems to have a set of qualifications he is using to determine who has IT. They are not my set of determining factors, they are his. I only asked him to apply his set of factors to achieving the goals of the martial art he is practicing to the Founder of the art he is practicing. I think the question is valid, but only to him, or anyone else accepting these baseline factors

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Old 07-26-2009, 02:06 PM   #289
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Rob seems to have a set of qualifications he is using to determine who has IT. They are not my set of determining factors, they are his.
Well, Tohei seems to have decided a good foot in the door for Aikido would be the "ki tests" and that's generally what I think most of us (except Erick) are talking about. Will that work, or did Tohei miss what you were talking about, too?

Mike
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:48 PM   #290
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's not true, Shaun. It's an impossible statement.
Mike, I can't argue with you as I am only repeating a statement from a source who is one of the foremost authorities on macrobiotic ying-yang theory and how it both relates to and effects all levels and systems within the body. Perhaps there is a caveat where what you say is true and what he said doesn't apply. However, I would let you argue that with him. I would just love to have the two of you meet. Care to have me arrange it... you might just get your life out of it. Given that I was very sick and didn't know it until I had a consultation with him, I know I did.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
As I've said, these things are the same things, Shaun. Chinese, Indian, Japanese... the basic principles are the same. Dressing a doll up in a kimono or in Taoist robes make look like "different things" to someone who is looking at the superficial... but the doll is a doll, regardless of the outward appearances. That's why Ueshiba used Chinese classical descriptions in his writings about Aikido... he saw no real difference. The principles are the same.
Yes, you do keep saying that. However, you just haven't really been convincing, even in the least. Again, O-Sensei couched his teachings in certain ways depending on who he was talking to and more importantly who might also be listening in when he was talking. The videos or articles you have seen where he is speaking to an interviewer, or when he knows someone else might hear what he had to say after the fact were always done in a manner so as to not reveal anything to casual listeners. When I use the term casual, I am specifically including even people who would consider themselves well versed in the subject so that they would not be really able to find anything useful in what he had just said. This was by design. I get a very good laugh when I read or see what was said, because when you compare it to the actual teachings it is as funny as a Penn & Teller magic trick. You thought you knew what was going because they were giving you a behind the scenes look at how the magic is done, but low and behold, you still have no clue...

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
When I take a Chinese expert to watch some Japanese m.a.'s he watches for if/how they use ki/qi... it would never dawn on him that anyone would think the basic principles of ki/qi are different because of geography or culture.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
If that is the way a CMA thinks, then you are most certainly and most proficiently a CMA... At least now you have communicated in a way that I am able to truly understand the gap between what I say and what you hear. My apologies...

...best in training to you and all

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 07-26-2009 at 02:58 PM.

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Old 07-26-2009, 03:12 PM   #291
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, in turn I'd suggest that what people understand in someone's writings depends on what their overall level of understanding is. Your suggestion is that you are not missing anything in your Aikido and that if there are any problems it must lie with someone else. Good for you. However, I think we had discussions along those lines a few years back, so to engage in that same discussion would be redundant all over again.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Maybe there is some miscommunication, and it happens not to further torture you on my end I well attempt, hopefully not like a bull in a china shop, to get it a better message across on my end.

I am suggesting there is nothing missing in Aikido depending on your focus. One, being self-sufficient in learning over dependent spoon-feeding. Two, don't look only at what is apparent, Three, whether the delivery system for principles be Chinese or Japanese in all its obscure and coded language, it all comes down to physics- it's all universal. When this is realized learning is excelled and a different prospective is taken. One doesn't fall in the trap of thinking they are missing something they need to seek out from others -such as yourself, rather they realize it is a matter of studying physics more and its application. The resource is there waiting, available to being applied, nothing is missing.

If you have already discussed this I understand.
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:15 PM   #292
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Mike, I can't argue with you as I am only repeating a statement from a source who is one of the foremost authorities on macrobiotic ying-yang theory and how it both relates to and effects all levels and systems within the body. Perhaps there is a caveat where what you say is true and what he said doesn't apply.
Shaun, I'd suggest that you simply drop the idea. Just parroting what someone you respect told you is not the same thing as having some idea how things work. Let's just leave it that ki/qi works the same in Chinese and Japanese people and martial arts for all the purposes about which we're speaking.
Quote:
Yes, you do keep saying that. However, you just haven't really been convincing, even in the least. Again, O-Sensei couched his teachings in certain ways depending on who he was talking to and more importantly who might also be listening in when he was talking. The videos or articles you have seen where he is speaking to an interviewer, or when he knows someone else might hear what he had to say after the fact were always done in a manner so as to not reveal anything to casual listeners. When I use the term casual, I am specifically including even people who would consider themselves well versed in the subject so that they would not be really able to find anything useful in what he had just said. This was by design. I get a very good laugh when I read or see what was said, because when you compare it to the actual teachings it is as funny as a Penn & Teller magic trick. You thought you knew what was going because they were giving you a behind the scenes look at how the magic is done, but low and behold, you still have no clue...
Well, heh... I guess only certain people know that truth, Shaun, to here you tell it. Were you there? This reminds me too much of the sign outside a bar in Alaska that says, "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you!". How do you know which guy you are for sure, eh? Maybe you're the one who got cheated. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there is that little bit about Tohei doing the same things I'm talking about.
Quote:
If that is the way a CMA thinks, then you are most certainly and most proficiently a CMA... At least now you have communicated in a way that I am able to truly understand the gap between what I say and what you hear.
I'm sure. Note that I only did Japanese martial-arts for 20+ years, contrary to all your comments about CMA's, Shaun. You seem to be hung up on this idea that there is some great difference between CMA's and JMA's. I'll bet you'd enjoy reading Ellis Amdur's book "Hidden in Plain Sight". I mentioned to Ellis one time that a lot of it wasn't so much hidden as simply ignored by people who thought they knew everything and couldn't accept the possibility that they were simply ignorant. I think Dan has implied that he gets that impression sometimes, too.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:23 PM   #293
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am suggesting there is nothing missing in Aikido depending on your focus.
I agree absolutely. Some people are completely fulfilled just to put on the costume and learn a few Japanese words and say, "Osu" a lot. There is nothing missing from their Aikido, either. God, I love tautology.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:00 PM   #294
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Mary,

I don't know you, and you most certainly do not know me. I will refrain from replying to you in this thread, as from what I can tell you are seemingly more committed to meaningless attack and defense of issues and not really forwarding the topic. Perhaps you can take that as constructive criticism, but somehow I imagine, not...

However, should you care to drop that posture I may choose to chime back in, in your direction.
.
Shaun, you're illustrating my point, and I understand you don't want to pursue it further, so that's an end of it. You assume the mantle of authority and claim control of the dialogue by labeling what I say as "meaningless", without either evidence or argumentation to support your use of this label. This is exactly what Saul is talking about. Again, I understand that this is not how you see events, so there's really nothing more to be said. I will treat you more courteously than you have treated me, and not attempt to invalidate your view of reality by stating that if you "care to drop that posture I may choose" to re-engage with you. Instead I'll simply say that we have no basis for communication as long as you continue to assert your authority and as long as I refuse to accept it.
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:54 PM   #295
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I would like to make some comments directed further to the topic.

As Aikidokas one of the challenges of being so is we are subjected, as most other martial artists are including CMA, to a traditional delivery systems of teaching. Within that or a part of that is the issue of communication and language previously discussed. But, what hasn't been discussed is the effects of being functionally fixed has on learning Aikido and how it restricts development and the impact on the ability of the Aikidoka to learn.

In all martial arts, there is a vulnerability to being Functionally Fixed. This can be caused by many reasons, one maybe language, i.e. the non-association of language. All martial artists are susceptible to suffering from being Functionally Fixed. This is an issue to look at when we talk about what is missing in Aikido.

Martial arts in its tradition can cultivate students and teachers being Functionally Fixed, a huge barrier to skill development and learning. It may also causes one to wonder if they are missing something.

The caution here is not recognizing the issue, and thus not finding the correct solution. But rather finding substitute the doesn't address the issue of being Functionally Fixed. So no matter what the new information offered to a student is, nor how it is delivered will not remedy being Functionally Fixed.

Here is another issue to be consider when we wish to improve our Aikido, the issue of being Functionally Fixed. We can unassisted look at ourselves and observe if this issue is effecting our learning and perspectives, and if applicable those we teach. Also, when we are learning or teaching in different ways outside or inside of Aikido, to what degree is being Functionally Fixed play a role, on our end and the teacher's.

What ever is missing, like in all things in life I caution against a quick apparent fix mind set. I think experience will support it is just the opposite. And that it is what we don't readily focus on see, or overlook is our best solution. Like being aware of being Functionally Fixed, being aware the answer/power is like Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz" not with the Great and Almighty Wizard, but within her self, her perspective, which she had the whole time, and didn't realize it.

Last edited by Buck : 07-26-2009 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:22 PM   #296
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Shaun, I imagine O-sensei would say to me:
1 - Hey want to work out a bit?
2 - Do you see that golden cloud too?
3 - Can you help me tell people to stop writing "O'sensei" since I'm not Irish?
I could go on and on...

Seriously though, I'd have loved to ask the founder of aikido what he thought about my applying my set of factors to achieving the goals of the martial art. I would just prefer to discuss it with him as more of a peer in terms of physical ability.

If anyone feels that my set of qualifications to determine who has IT is off, by all means please chime in with your thoughts.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-26-2009 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:30 PM   #297
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
True, but I was using Erick's term [[angular momentum]] which you so like to wholly reject... Of course there is force, direction, acceleration and thereby momentum in all movement. However, my sense is that you wouldn't tend to describe IT in terms of those things. I wouldn't, either.
Heh. And then you go and use opposed rotations as an example:

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
In such a case one would fail because they are 180 degrees out of sync in terms of the direction of ki flow, one being counter clockwise and the other being clockwise.
I wonder why that choice. Consider, rather than 180 degrees -- 90 degrees -- juuji.

I don't for a moment think that one HAS to use moment, angular momentum and resultant shears by this method for physical description -- I think it is just, mechanically speaking, simpler. Vectors work fine as long as you enjoy matrix algebra (Ew!), or insane parallel decision trees. There are others (e.g. - field operations) besides. But none as simple, I think. The method of moments for both dynamics and statics is quite intuitive and quite powerful.

I also find it interesting that this way of looking at things as a physical model:

-- is somehow deemed wholly different and superior to this way:


It is interesting, is all.

Shaun, I would be interested in your thoughts on ki and its flow in light of this.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 07-26-2009 at 09:37 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:46 PM   #298
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I would like to make some comments directed further to the topic.

The final comment is about Aikido as a martial art, and I want to stress art in the word martial art. Let's view Aikido as an art, just as a fine art or from a craftmen's perspective. Let's take their approach and perspective in learning. If we do then we learn more intensely facing problems creatively, results in finding creative solutions to the problem. We break out of the stagnate rut, inciting new possibilities and growth. If we are always looking at Aikido with a creative eye.

When we do this we test new possibilities and angles. We force ourselves to shift our perspectives routinely constantly looking for answers and methods within the application of physics. New possibilities brings new knowledge from seeing something we are familiar with in a new way, and the many possible relationship that can be discovered. All of which brings on a renewable interest and desire to continue on to find all the possibilities that can be explored. In contrast, being the opposite, being stagnate and solidifying the attitude that all possibilities have been exhausted to an end with no favorable result.

Here again is the unseen the internal strength, I see. To change the way we preceive and practice the art. To unlock our minds and find what the forefather's of the art discovered who had less resource knowledge, which they had to find on their own, that leaded them to such heights and knowledge in their arts. They didn't have the stage already built to play on like we do today, they had to build their own stages if they want to play. Very little was know then about physics- mechnics, etc that we do now. None of them did it over night or with quick fixes.

That every word or concept, clear as it may seem to be, has only a limited range of applicability. (Heisenberg, The Tao of Physics, p35)

Last edited by Buck : 07-26-2009 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:47 PM   #299
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Heh. And then you go and use opposed rotations as an example:
If you are referring to the quote found below, then I can say that my understanding is that according to Japanese macrobiotic yin-yang theory, the flow of ki from organ system to organ system is 180 degrees from that of the Chinese model. Given one is clockwise and one is counter clockwise, the method of treatment of the three organ systems (organ causing the symptomatic dysfunction, the organ that is already diseased and the organ that which when becomes sick will lead to severe sickness or death) treatment to prevent the flow of negative ki will be based upon two different organ systems depending upon which yin-yang principles one is following.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I wonder why that choice. Consider, rather than 180 degrees -- 90 degrees -- juuji.
As I mentioned in the model above, there can not be anything other than 180 degrees out of sync. If you are referring to something else, please let me know what, specifically and I will try to address it.

With regards to your other questions, I have sent you a private message.

...best in training to you and all.

.

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Old 07-27-2009, 01:06 AM   #300
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Shaun, I imagine O-sensei would say to me:
1 - Hey want to work out a bit?
2 - Do you see that golden cloud too?
3 - Can you help me tell people to stop writing "O'sensei" since I'm not Irish?
I could go on and on...

Seriously though, I'd have loved to ask the founder of aikido what he thought about my applying my set of factors to achieving the goals of the martial art. I would just prefer to discuss it with him as more of a peer in terms of physical ability.

If anyone feels that my set of qualifications to determine who has IT is off, by all means please chime in with your thoughts.

Rob
Rob,

I loved your reply. I will send you a private message in the next day or so...

...best in training to you and all.

.

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