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Old 01-12-2003, 04:21 AM   #26
Ta Kung
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Eek!

Quote:
it isn't perverse to learn about one's sexuality from the intimacy inherent in aikido.
It is when you have a dojo with only 5 girls. Most of the time, we're only men there...
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Old 01-12-2003, 06:54 AM   #27
"5 senses"
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To Mike Lee - I really like your emphasis on intense training. (In fact, if I lived in your neck of the woods, I'd love to drop by your dojo sometime!) But I think your dichotomy between intense, martial training and enjoying the physicality of aikido is a false one. It's just not either-or.

Zazen might be a good analogy. When sitting, you focus on breath and let everything else come and go. The process of meditation may turn out to be enjoyable, to relieve stress, etc., and although pleasure and stress-relief aren't the point of practice, they're welcome side-effects. And (from what mentors tell me, anyway) they don't interfere with correct and even very intense zen practice.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the enjoyment of physical contact can be one of the many natural side benefits of doing aikido. It's harmless, and need not interfere with even the most intense practice. (And you're talking to someone who likes doing tanto tori with live blades. )

There's a difference between going to the dojo in order to get physical with people, and going to the dojo in order to train hard - and happening to enjoy physical contact in the process (along with all the other side benefits, like better sleep, mood, overall fitness, etc).
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Old 01-12-2003, 08:12 AM   #28
mike lee
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the warriors' way

Quote:
But I think your dichotomy between intense, martial training and enjoying the physicality of aikido is a false one.
It's not my dichotomy it's just the way it is. Those that want to reach the top of their game must realize that aikido is budo and train as such.
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Old 01-12-2003, 01:18 PM   #29
shihonage
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It rubs the lotion onto it's skin, it does this whenever it's told...
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Old 01-12-2003, 03:10 PM   #30
Jimro
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This is the best laugh I've had in a long time.

Many people experience heightened awareness after beginning a martial arts regime. It happened to me most intensely after a 3 day street defense course. I remember trying to fall asleep to the humming of the refrigerator two rooms away, things I hadn't noticed before became clear to me.

I don't think that Aikido has increased your libido any, I think you are becoming more aware of what that was their all the time.
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Old 01-13-2003, 03:01 AM   #31
mike lee
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JC

Quote:
This thread is not about inappropriate behavior or mind-wandering fantasies - it seems to be about admitting that people's bodies feel good, that engaging in a connected act increases one's sexual energy. What's wrong with that? Why is that a distraction from the upright goal of martial activity?
A good teacher once said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Since we practice a "Do," which is ultimately a spiritual pursuit, then it's imporatant that we understand how to engage in such training.

Although we begin with physical practice, It seems to me that O-Sensei wanted aikido to lead us into higher spiritual realms by engaging in the art. I don't recall any of O-Sensei's teachings talking about "admitting that people's bodies feel good" or increasing "sexual energy."
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Old 01-13-2003, 05:17 AM   #32
"Frungy"
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I met my current girlfriend in an Aikido class almost five years ago. There are much worse ways to start a relationship than an egalitarian training relationship.

Of course being a university dojo it was much bigger on encouraging socialising after class than most dojos (I suppose?).

It certainly didn't impair my aikido, or distract me during class to be practising with someone I was in love with, although I can't say the same for my university studies for the first couple of months .

Whether you're in love or lust or whatever, when someone is trying to execute a shihonage complete with convincing atemi, you concentrate or end up very sore.
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Old 01-13-2003, 06:04 AM   #33
"5 senses"
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"A good teacher once said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

"Although we begin with physical practice, It seems to me that O-Sensei wanted aikido to lead us into higher spiritual realms by engaging in the art."

If there's such a conflict between "flesh" and "spirit", why did O Sensei pick an intensely physical way to lead us to these "higher spiritual realms"? IME, aikido has an uncanny knack for giving "spiritual" insight - even when you're not looking for it! - through nothing other than plain old physical practice.

(I hope you didn't misunderstand my post (might not have expressed myself clearly) - what I meant about enjoying interacting physically with people on the mat was NOT about sexual fantasies/attraction. More about breathing a sigh of relief at being in an environment where the usual frigid social taboos against touch no longer apply, where being physically close to people has NOTHING to do with sex, & so is much more comfortable.)
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Old 01-13-2003, 06:30 AM   #34
Edward
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Well, according to Taoist beliefs (and consequently Japanese as well), one of the ways to reach enlightenment is sex ....
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Old 01-13-2003, 06:37 AM   #35
mike lee
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where is the love?

Quote:
Well, according to Taoist beliefs (and consequently Japanese as well), one of the ways to reach enlightenment is sex ....
Go for it! The only thing I ever got out of it was brief moment of pleasure.
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Old 01-13-2003, 07:56 AM   #36
happysod
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I'd rather read replies from the partners of aikidokas rather than those practising - if they said it works it would sure help with the marketing literature...

Could also be a subject of an outre poll - "do you prefer aikido to sex", I'm not too sure reading some of the posts which would win.

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 01-13-2003, 09:10 AM   #37
Edward
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Honestly, after a 2 hours session of aikido, and another 2 hours session of Vitamin Beer, all what I want to do is go to sleep
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Old 01-13-2003, 10:22 AM   #38
aikigreg
Dojo: Mizu Aikido
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Well, I didn't before but *NOW* I do! Thanks a heckuva lot!

Seriously though - my ex fiancee used to train with me, and other than entertaining thoughts of naked randori in the dojo with all the lights off, I was too sweaty and out of breath to think on it - even if the lady who I was paired with happened to be a righteous looking bird.
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Old 01-13-2003, 02:05 PM   #39
"Unregistered"
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As the original poster I'd like to clear a few things up that I didn't mention in the first post.

First let me say that I never think about these things while I'm on the mat. I'm just a beginner so I'm much too busy trying to learn the techniques and not falling on my face. I also don't expect it ever will be an issue. I don't know as much about budo as most of you, but I do know that would be inappropriate in the dojo.

Second, I'm happily married and plan to stay that way. I don't go around leering at women all the time since I started Aikido. I also don't get all worked up every time I'm in the presence of a woman. It's more of a subtle sense.

I think some of you have an idea of what I'm getting at. Others my be focusing too much on the sexual part. Perhaps I should have broken the topic into two separate posts.
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Old 01-13-2003, 08:19 PM   #40
opherdonchin
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About sex, Mike Lee said:
Quote:
Go for it! The only thing I ever got out of it was brief moment of pleasure.
And all I can say is that, friend, you are missing out.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 01-13-2003, 08:35 PM   #41
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I second that. I think the taoist approach to sexuality is very relevant here. Sexual energy is good and everywhere and harnessable and useful, and if being in an environment in which you touch people and are intimate is helping some folks to understand the healthy and full nature of sexual energy, this is good. It is both physically and spiritually good, it is good practice, good Do. (as opposed to good Duoh).
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Old 01-14-2003, 02:08 AM   #42
mike lee
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i don't `have sex'

Quote:
And all I can say is that, friend, you are missing out.
I don't think so. For me, having sex and making love are quite different.
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Old 01-14-2003, 02:25 AM   #43
mike lee
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the devil's in the details

Quote:
I think the taoist approach to sexuality is very relevant here. Sexual energy is good and everywhere and harnessable and useful, and if being in an environment in which you touch people and are intimate is helping some folks to understand the healthy and full nature of sexual energy, this is good. It is both physically and spiritually good, it is good practice, good Do.
According to everything that I've learned about martial arts, Zen Buddism, Taoism and Catholicism, the practioner is encouraged to conserve his sexual energy and convert it into spiritual energy. The act of sex merely depletes all of the practioner's hard-earned work. This is why monks, priests and mystics don't generally enage in sex, not to mention the fact that it's a distraction from spiritual pursuits.

Do a Google search and key in the words "Bible," "flesh" and "spirit" for and abundance of information on this problem.

Actually, there's no such thing as "sexual energy." It's all merely "energy." It's our own deluded thinking that makes it "sexual."
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Old 01-14-2003, 02:45 AM   #44
PeterR
 
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Wasn't there something about holes in the soji.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-14-2003, 05:44 AM   #45
Ghost Fox
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Honest Question

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Actually, there's no such thing as "sexual energy." It's all merely "energy." It's our own deluded thinking that makes it "sexual."
So, does that mean there is no such thing as martial energy?
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Old 01-14-2003, 06:31 AM   #46
mike lee
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a rose is a rose

Quote:
So, does that mean there is no such thing as martial energy?
Never heard of it.

When a person turns on a light in their home, can they tell if the energy is coming from a nuclear power plant, a coal-fired power plant, a hydro-electric plant or a little old man peddling a bicycle with a belt hooked up to a generator? This kind of energy is all basically the same.

The same concept applies to ki.

Last edited by mike lee : 01-14-2003 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 01-14-2003, 08:15 AM   #47
Edward
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Re: the devil's in the details

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
This is why monks, priests and mystics don't generally enage in sex, not to mention the fact that it's a distraction from spiritual pursuits.
It seems Taoist mystics used to engage frequently in ritual sex. Japanese Zen monks were allowed to do it with small boys, even though it seems some of them even indulged in the unthinkable: sex with women.
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Old 01-14-2003, 08:49 AM   #48
mike lee
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no scruples

Quote:
Japanese Zen monks were allowed to do it with small boys ...
Just because they did "it," doesn't mean it was right. Catholic priests in America also did "it" with young boys. Should we justify their actions because it was also done by Japanese "monks"?

Japanese, by the way, are infamous for corrupting Zen Buddhism.

Last edited by mike lee : 01-14-2003 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 01-14-2003, 09:55 AM   #49
Edward
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Re: no scruples

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Just because they did "it," doesn't mean it was right.
Of course not. What I mean to say is that things are not always black and white. There are so many million shades of grey. Black and white seem to be a small exception.
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Old 01-14-2003, 10:10 AM   #50
mike lee
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antipollution

Quote:
Of course not. What I mean to say is that things are not always black and white. There are so many million shades of grey. Black and white seem to be a small exception.
And what I mean to say is that the shades of grey do not hinder me from seeing black and white

Last edited by mike lee : 01-14-2003 at 10:16 AM.
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