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Old 09-02-2007, 08:49 PM   #26
eyrie
 
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Re: Training for who?

Quote:
Jess McDonald wrote: View Post
Martial Arts are for war.
That would be military arts... NOT "martial arts". These days we use guns, bombs, rockets and missiles to kill from a distance. The days of hand-to-hand combat with short range weaponry is over. Tanks have replaced chariots and calvary. Artillery and aircraft have replaced archers and canons. Hardly an "art", really. Martial arts used in the modern context refers to something completely different - typically as in systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

Also, "fight" is a very narrow definition of war... which is so much more strategy and less so "fighting". I can't imagine what "war" one could possibly be involved in to warrant training to "fight" in, in an everyday living context. Rape? We are being raped everyday... by banks, big business, and self-serving politicians and bureaucrats. Yeah, it's war... let's fight them too.

Do you have children? Ever smack them? What does that teach them? That violence works? How long has the war in the Middle East been going on for? Close to half a century? How long has the "conflict" gone on for in Iraq? The only "conflict" there is one of interest. How long will this oxymoronic "war on terror" go on for? Like the "war on drugs"?

Is it working? You think? Yeah, let us fight... to the death. Fatwah and jihad on the infidels... yes, a great example to set to your children. In the words of Whitfield and Strong, war... what is it good for?

IMO, "fighting" is for amateurs, bullies, cowards and weaklings. It takes a really strong person to stand up for peace, love, and humanity. And I would hope that is what we train for, and what we will teach the next generation - to value lives, not take it.

Hopefully, as a result of that training, one develops the strength (and maybe some strategies and tactics) to be able to STOP or PREVENT an assault on your person or someone else - the REAL meaning of budo, and not to "fight".

Ignatius
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Old 09-02-2007, 09:05 PM   #27
DonMagee
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Re: Training for who?

Quote:
Jess McDonald wrote: View Post
YO!! Uhhh...so who are you training for...I mean like who are you training to fight...if anyone at all...just wondering...

PS I know this is loaded question but without bringing philosophy into it, I like to think I'm training to protect myself (and others if need be) from "bad men", like in 28 days later (the scene with the soldiers; sorry for the vague movie reference). However, as I think about this I really should throw in some type of grappling training since I'm pathetic in wrestling...whoa, sorry for rambling...what do you think?
LATE!!
I train to fight a few things, like the onset of type 2 diabetes. Lately however, my training has been to beat judoka at 155 pounds.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:28 AM   #28
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Training for who?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
That would be military arts... NOT "martial arts".
Well, technically, Jess it right. The term, "martial" refers to war/military; hence we have martial music refering to military music such as "stars and stripes forever." After reading the rest of your post I'm pretty sure we're ultimately in agrement though.
The difficulty, I think, of defining the "art of war" is the term "art." Aside from all the slights in semantic differences which different people bring to different words already, "art" says nothing specific about method. Two groups fight the same war with a different art. While I absolutely hate the "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" for the utterly meaninglessness I perceive in them, I still understand the projected meaning behind them. In my opinion, this relates to the "mcdojo." When commercialism prevails over behavior, it cheapens things.
So to tie my rambling back into the thread here...this all provides a background for who I train for. i can't assume people will play my game and it is for just this reason that "war" (in all it's subtle applications in meaning) is so dangerous that it shouldn't be treaded into lightly. It's such a chaotic event that only a fool, though that fool may be lucky, would willingly go...not to say I don't believe in the role of military. Part of what makes such a thing noble is that they knowingly (ideally) place themselves in danger. Part of what makes it such a tragedy is that others take them for granted while touting how noble they are at the same time. ...but...that's another matter altogether.
Take care all.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:30 AM   #29
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Wink Re: Training for who?

Motivation is something that changes with time, experience, and circumstances.
I started martial arts out of mere curiosity. I was taking dance classes, and a karate teacher in need for a dojo made a deal with my dance teacher to share her studio. So I thought, why not try? I suck at dancing, anyway.
So I started to train, to find that I also sucked at karate. So I thought, I don't care if I suck or not. I need a hobby, and I'll stick with anything that does not require me to be able to turn my legs out.
Then, about a year later, I realized that being able to fight back could be useful, and I improved because I had a more serious motivation.
Then, as the years went by, I found out that I was more fit than most of former classmates. Another motivation.
Then, I think, there is also the simple pleasure of socializing.
Come back with this same question in a few more years, and I may have found yet another motivation.
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:36 PM   #30
lbb
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Re: Training for who?

Quote:
Jess McDonald wrote: View Post
Yo!!
First. I'm not referring to regular old soldiers (hell I was in the USMC), I'm talking about you know like rape (see said film; by the way Selina kicks ass). Sorry I had to be so blatant but obviously subtly didn't work.
Well, because you were too generic -- and because people took your question somewhat seriously, which meant discarding the associated fantasy of training for some situation out of a movie. Sure, you can watch post-apocalyptic movies and "train" to handle those Hollywood dangers. But I don't think most people regard that as more than idle fantasizing.

Quote:
Second, thank you to those of you who actually answered the question. We all train for ourselves but there has to be more of a motive to it than just that.
No, there doesn't -- and now you're calling people liars.

Quote:
It takes guts to say the truth.
It takes arrogance to presume that you know someone else's reasons, and humility to accept that your reasons are not shared by everyone.

Quote:
Third. Martial Arts are for war. Get with reality or you'll lose when Mother Earth's Apocalypse finally comes.
What on earth do you think is going to happen when "Mother Earth's Apocalypse" comes, and how on earth do you think that any "war" training is going to help you?
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:21 PM   #31
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Training for who?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Well, technically, Jess [is] right. The term, "martial" refers to war/military...
Just so I'm clear with my intent (I hope):
"martial arts" includes far more than simply "war arts." Simply saying martial arts are for war implies something very very limited in scope. Sensei Barrish recently described how he doesn't really like the phrase, "martial art." Aikido to him, as i think I understand it, transcends the duality of self and other. It was mentioned ealier that there isn't really a "fight" included in Aikido. Perhaps that's just semantics, i don't know, but in that line of thinking, for me at least, Aikido training is about taking what you've got and making the most out of it for everyone involved...and that especially applies to when we feel insulted or otherwise attacked. It's TOTALLY the best political art: put everything in a positive spin, man! ...sort of
I sure do love those icons...
Anyhoo...
Cheers!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:19 PM   #32
eyrie
 
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Re: Training for who?

Well, no. Martial arts, in common usage today, refers to a codified system of tradition and practice of training for (hand-to-hand) combat. The conduct of modern military warfare (i.e. war) is completely different.

Does your "martial art" of choice teach you things like troop movement and deployment, how to call for an artillery or airstrike, how to setup an ambush, how to effect an orderly retreat while laying down suppresive fire, how to clear a building - room by room, how to read and use the terrain, how to use tank and armored calvary in coordination with troop movement, how air and sea support is used, how to silence sentries, etc. etc. etc.?

You might use a "martial art" to fight (as in competitively or as a sport) or in self-defence, but nobody fights battles in a theatre of ops with what we call "martial arts". So, technically, even though such codified practices were derived from ancient hand-to-hand combative techniques, and it bears a name which pays homage to the Roman god of war, it would be incorrect to say "Martial Arts is for war" as it is no longer used in that context.

Perhaps this is why certain koryu traditions don't label themselves as bujutsu, but as heiho - the more appropriately fitting "military methods". And of course the pun on "hei" meaning peace.

AFAIK, Aikido is neither bujutsu or heiho. The old man specifically said, aiki is the true meaning of budo - which to my mind, either everyone else has got it wrong (i.e. budo is for fighting), or the old man was tripping out on amanita mushrooms as he found himself enveloped in a golden mist of peace and love (yeah baby!) and meant something else.

Ignatius
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:19 AM   #33
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Training for who?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Well, no. Martial arts, in common usage today, refers to a codified system of tradition and practice of training for (hand-to-hand) combat. The conduct of modern military warfare (i.e. war) is completely different.
I'm assuming you're talking to me...
I said "technically" and referenced "martial music" to illustrate my meaning. I wasn't refering to common usage, which is why I also said overall I think we're in agreement.
Quote:
Does your "martial art" of choice teach you things like troop movement and deployment...laying down suppresive fire...how to read and use the terrain...how to silence sentries, etc. etc. etc.?
Purely to be pedantic, but yeah, though only in the most abstract sense of these things; not in the particulars of modern warfare.
Quote:
...but nobody fights battles in a theatre of ops with what we call "martial arts". So, technically, even though such codified practices were derived from ancient hand-to-hand combative techniques, and it bears a name which pays homage to the Roman god of war, it would be incorrect to say "Martial Arts is for war" as it is no longer used in that context.
Generally speaking, no, you're right. However, I think hand-to-hand combat is still recognized as a part of modern warfare or you wouldn't have focused training in them.
Quote:
AFAIK,
???
Quote:
Aikido is neither bujutsu or heiho. The old man specifically said, aiki is the true meaning of budo - which to my mind, either everyone else has got it wrong (i.e. budo is for fighting), or the old man was tripping out on amanita mushrooms as he found himself enveloped in a golden mist of peace and love (yeah baby!) and meant something else.
The more I read of what people have ascribed to the meaning of budo (or to what the founder "really" meant), etc. the less I want to hear from others and find out for myself. Words have a funny way of taking on a life of their own...especially in our wide world of web-proliferated info. I already get confused enough as it is...though I know I'll keep trying to wrap my mind around these kinds of things...I'm a glutton for punishment.
Take care.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-04-2007 at 10:26 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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