Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-24-2012, 06:49 AM   #1
Peter Wong
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 48
Offline
Backward rolls

I've been looking at alot of Youtube videos on ukemi. I see some people doing them different from how I was taught. The backroll. When the left leg is forward and you're going down into the roll, which butt cheek touches the mat/ground?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 09:16 AM   #2
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

I'd say the right butt cheek, then diagonally across the back to the left shoulder.
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVjimVc3pXY
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 10:15 PM   #3
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 716
Australia
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

If the left leg is forward, the right cheek should touch the mat first. I just did a few in my lounge room to confirm. It's just like in Dave's video.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 10:36 PM   #4
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

I've always wondered where the back role originated. Martially it makes no sense, from a safety point of view it has issues. I admit there is a certain elegance when it is done right but that is about it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 05:47 AM   #5
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 716
Australia
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

I agree Peter. The only reason I can think of to do one is aesthetic. I never do them when I am actually thrown.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2012, 07:56 AM   #6
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Japan
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Yeah I think they are just a means to keep a certain flow in your training when you are working on a technique. It feels like you aren't interrupting the cycle, and when you come out of the roll your maai is usually right to move in again for the next attack. Also, pushing yourself up with your arms is hard to do and seems worth it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 09:02 AM   #7
amoeba
Dojo: Aikido Netzwerk
Location: Düsseldorf, NRW
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 80
Germany
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Do you have examples? I'm having difficulties imagining how it would work to bring the other butt cheek down first. Unless you take a step back, obviously, but then you've changed hanmi and the whole point is moot...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 10:12 AM   #8
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Alissa Götzinger wrote: View Post
Do you have examples? I'm having difficulties imagining how it would work to bring the other butt cheek down first. Unless you take a step back, obviously, but then you've changed hanmi and the whole point is moot...
If the left foot is forward, then the right foot is back. It is more natural to sink to the right knee. Then sit on the right butt. Then "throw" everything over the left shoulder so the roll goes right hip to left shoulder.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2012, 10:39 PM   #9
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 716
Australia
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Alissa Götzinger wrote: View Post
Do you have examples? I'm having difficulties imagining how it would work to bring the other butt cheek down first. Unless you take a step back, obviously, but then you've changed hanmi and the whole point is moot...
Did you look at the video that Dave posted? That's how it is done. Just remember to throw your left foot over your left shoulder after you have put your right butt cheek on the mat.

Another good video: He looks at backward rolls from about the 7 minute mark. He takes a slightly different approach to the Yoshinkan guy, but the principles are the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Oaic...eature=related

Last edited by robin_jet_alt : 07-01-2012 at 10:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 07:23 AM   #10
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

an interesting take on backward and forward rolls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RreOg4rEr3o and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGfuK...eature=related

he's right about the getting the knees off the floor on the backward roll.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 08:03 PM   #11
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 107
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

We were taught that with the left foot forward, the right outer edge / instep is placed behind you on the ground, and the right leg becomes a shock absorber for your right butt cheek before it hits. Then proceed diagonally across the back. The knee never directly impacts the ground. Knees and the ground are a bad idea in anything other than seiza.

Though, typically, these days I find myself slapping out rather than a backward roll. Though in all honesty, this might have to do with the excess chi I have been storing around my midsection.

Last edited by Hilary : 07-02-2012 at 08:06 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 08:46 PM   #12
DCP
 
DCP's Avatar
Dojo: Inaka Dojo
Location: Land of Lincoln
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 135
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post

Though, typically, these days I find myself slapping out rather than a backward roll. Though in all honesty, this might have to do with the excess chi I have been storing around my midsection.
Because of my growing "ki basket," I find the inertia of the full back roll easier than slapping out and being "static" on the floor. It takes more energy to get up than to roll up using the energy of the fall.

A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety.
- Aesop
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 09:29 PM   #13
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 107
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Daniel perhaps a better description is a slap and a half roll. I am not really that big in the middle, but I find I can dissipate my momentum effectively (I'm 6' 1" 205lbs), do a little half turn and find myself in a balls of the feet seiza, ready rock back on my soles for a minimum knee stress standup. The 5-10lbs in the gut interferes with a really tight low energy back roll (in my case). Front roll no problem back eehhh, plus I get to mess with uke's feet!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 03:58 AM   #14
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Onegaishimasu, which butt cheek touches the mat?? Gee, after nearly 28 years of rolliing I never thought of it.
In gassho,
Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 04:28 AM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I've always wondered where the back role originated. Martially it makes no sense, from a safety point of view it has issues. I admit there is a certain elegance when it is done right but that is about it.
From a getting knocked down stand point I agree with your assessment.

As far as newaza goes, the mechanics of a back roll are very applicable. While you won't execute a back roll in grappling per se, there are things that learned in doing backrolls that are useful,

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:32 AM   #16
PhilMyKi
Dojo: Seibukan, Milton Keynes
Location: At Work unless I am at the DOJO!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 112
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

I recieved a smalll book in the post this morning by the (very) late W.E.Fairbairn (look him up, died long before I was born. I first heard of him through the old chaps at my grandads years ago). It covers a multitude of CQ fighting techniques as taught to the forces and SOE during WW2.

In the section on getting up off the floor whilst on the back the description and illustrations are clearly a backwards ukemi. So there must be added value in practising this ...

Just throwing that one out there.

Last edited by PhilMyKi : 07-04-2012 at 05:38 AM. Reason: reasons of flow ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 05:49 AM   #17
Eva Antonia
Dojo: CERIA
Location: Brussels
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 211
Belgium
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Hello,

how nice to read that lots of people find backward rolls awkward and suspect them of not being really efficient. I always felt the same, but not being an expert with many, many years under the belt, always thought this might be a personal misinterpretation.

Whenever possible I try to replace them by a lateral or forward roll, or slapping and getting up laterally, which seems to be easier.
When having to explain how to do them, since they are unavoidable, I always use the picture of a circle you form, when standing on the left foot, with your right leg, rolling over the outer side of your foot, outer side of the leg, outer side of the knee, leg, hip, then give a kick in the air with the leg that formed the circle and roll over the left shoulder, looking to the right. The kick helps to land on your feet and not your knees; you can use the palm of your hand as support but don't need to.

All the best,

Eva
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 08:37 AM   #18
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

So out of curiosity, for what techniques do people employ a full backwards roll as the proper ukemi? I'm having trouble thinking of anything, but then again... 3 hours sleep and the tea hasn't kicked in yet.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 08:40 AM   #19
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

I should amend my response by noting that sometimes I find myself taking a full backwards roll ukemi if I"m trying to increase the distance between me and the other person. So I think it is a useful skill, another option in terms of positioning options. But then again I have the suspicion I'm missing some obvious techniques and it's just the fuzzy morning brain...

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 09:19 AM   #20
john.burn
 
john.burn's Avatar
Dojo: Chishin Dojo
Location: Coventry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
So out of curiosity, for what techniques do people employ a full backwards roll as the proper ukemi? I'm having trouble thinking of anything, but then again... 3 hours sleep and the tea hasn't kicked in yet.
In my old dojo they used to (and still do) enforce the idea that you must take a forward roll from shihonage which I always hated and never used to do, found it way too dangerous and made for a technique that simply didn't work as you have to let go of your partner in order for them to roll... Anyways, we used to practice a kata based on shihonage with 8 or so attacks or grabs and the backwards roll allowed me to stay connected in terms of distance and timing a lot better than people doing the forward roll - obviously this isn't a normal application of ukemi for shihonage but it worked and made sense for this.

Tenchinage would also spring to mind as something my body may take a backwards roll from - but not always. It's a good space saver at times if the mat is crowded and you can't take a large forward ukemi.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 09:53 AM   #21
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I should amend my response by noting that sometimes I find myself taking a full backwards roll ukemi if I"m trying to increase the distance between me and the other person. So I think it is a useful skill, another option in terms of positioning options. But then again I have the suspicion I'm missing some obvious techniques and it's just the fuzzy morning brain...
Could be I suppose, but nage can still come forward, so I don't really think it buys you much. I think a good break fall to a open guard position to be a better tactical choice personally.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 10:16 AM   #22
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Could be I suppose, but nage can still come forward, so I don't really think it buys you much. I think a good break fall to a open guard position to be a better tactical choice personally.
I look to use the back roll as a throw itself; a kick or leg sweep on the way down. I also treat being on my back as standing. Good posture so that I can utilize my limbs to both attack and defend. Ukemi is receiving force and should be to gain some tactical advantage.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 10:19 AM   #23
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
United_States
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

John:

FWIW. From Tenchinage we do a "mat splat". No roll. Yes, you go backwards, but not in to a roll per se. Same with shihonage -- we don't do the big version but more go straight down once they're off balance.

Kevin:

No real argument. As you know context is important and as I said I really can't think of many times I willingly take a backwards roll when practicing or even in jiu waza. Yeah, I may end up *on* my back, but rarely am I propelled backwards enough to necessitate a full roll. And in terms of martial effectiveness, I agree completely with what you're saying in most contexts, but sometimes you're going backwards and the other fella doesn't close the distance. It's all about the fluidity of the situation and having options, regardless of whether you take them. Just nice to be able to if you decide the particular situation would warrant it. Big guy gives a strong, unexpected push in to your chest, you have all sorts of room, his pals are behind him and he's just being an ass and not jumping in. I might just roll out backwards and come up with a bit more distance. It also keeps him between me and his pals just in case. Then run like hell... But you get the idea, I'm not saying it is ideal or even a good idea most of the time. Probably not. I just like having options. There's also the "how did that guy do that?" reaction from some. Context, context. Wouldn't do it in the ring. Wouldn't do it in a one-on-one situation as usually the best option is to get in there and finish on your own terms rather than the other dude's.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 10:30 AM   #24
john.burn
 
john.burn's Avatar
Dojo: Chishin Dojo
Location: Coventry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
John:

FWIW. From Tenchinage we do a "mat splat". No roll. Yes, you go backwards, but not in to a roll per se. Same with shihonage -- we don't do the big version but more go straight down once they're off balance.
Hi Keith,

Yup, this is pretty much how we do things in my dojo.

The kata from my old dojo was effectively like any other Karate type kata but you had a person grabbing you although you're both working together. The straight down finish for shihonage would kinda have messed the flow up as the whole thing was one technique from start to finish, if that makes any sense. As I said, that was a unique use for it.

With tenchi, most of the time I splat down (but not slap) however if someone is projecting me away more than down, I'll take a backwards roll sometimes or the roll forwards whilst looking back at them type of roll where you really end up rolling on your side - I have no idea what that's called... easier to do than describe!

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2012, 02:35 PM   #25
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Backward rolls

I never do backward rolls except if I absolutely have to as part of teaching them to newbies. Going back/down, I take a backfall, either straight down hard if that's where I"m being put, or softly and rolling along one side of the body, over to the other side to get the momentum to come up into a horse stance.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Backward Roll - Risks and benefits Kevin Wilbanks Techniques 54 01-29-2007 12:10 AM
Best Methods for Teaching Forward Rolls! Don Techniques 24 05-21-2006 07:42 AM
Rolls, Dizziness and Nausea LinSuHill Training 27 09-27-2005 07:10 PM
Dizzy doing rolls Thinker General 21 02-21-2002 08:09 PM
Dizzy after practicing rolls Daniel Trottier General 10 05-22-2001 05:40 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:31 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate