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Old 10-06-2010, 08:32 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
But I don't see the point in enforcing bowing and/or clapping that some guy defend arguing that these practices are one with Aikido.
These practises are Aikido, and you are a saracen.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:16 PM   #27
lbb
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Done. Dusted.
I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:27 PM   #28
Dazzler
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.
Well, they say we are divided by a common language.

I assure you its nothing bad.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:14 PM   #29
Lan Powers
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Always been a personal point for me..... everyone claps at several dojos I have visited, no-one claps at ours, should I "conform", or do I allow the act to be invested with more meaning than some others give it?
It has been explained as the "calling of the Kami"
It has been explained as "gathering everyones attention"
I just sit quietly as it happens (or not) and nobody has ever had issue with me not participating.

Just one approach to the question

If you are respectful of others, and their beliefs, then it all works out ok as a rule.
Just my 2-cents

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:27 PM   #30
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Alejandro, it's really a matter of whether there's a Shinto shrine in the room. The clapping is done toward the shrine, where there would be a mirror and other Shinto implements. And in serious Shinto, the person who maintains the shrine would maintain it for a kami--a Shinto deity that would bless, protect and inspire the place and all the people in it. That's why it's called a "kamiza," meaning "seat of the god."
"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.

What you are thinking of is "kamidana" - 神棚, a miniture shrine.

There is a word that means "seat of the god" - 神座, but this is read "shinza", and refers NOT to miniture Shinto shrines in dojo and other places, but rather to the actual place where the kami is held to reside in full size Shinto shrines (jinja).

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:32 AM   #31
Chris Farnham
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

The Aikikai dojos where I have seen bowing have all had some connection to Iwama. I am not sure if this is something that O Sensei added when he founded that dojo or whether he always did it and Hombu took the clapping out. Clapping at Iwama may have been done there because of its proximity to the shrine. It seems that people with Iwama lineage do it and people with hombu do not. What do Yoshinkan,Yoseikan, Tomiki, and Ki Society folks do?
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:26 AM   #32
mrlizard123
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:06 AM   #33
David Orange
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.
Thanks, Joshua.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:16 AM   #34
niall
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Of course Joshua is right for a normal room but you're right too, David. I've heard that explanation for dojos more than once. I just found this link to a Daito Ryu page in Japanese that says the same thing: kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods (and this article uses the 神座 form).

http://www.daitouryu.com/japanese/co...l_bumon04.html

Last edited by niall : 10-07-2010 at 10:27 AM.

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Old 10-07-2010, 03:11 PM   #35
David Orange
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods...[/url]
Interesting, Niall. Thanks to you, too.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:29 AM   #36
Dazzler
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
...whooosh.....
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Old 10-08-2010, 07:21 PM   #37
odudog
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Rey, why didn't you just ask Sakamoto Sensei to Takeguchi Sensei? I'm sure Darrell or Donna could have gotten the answer for you from them.

You could also ping me. Paul and Stella have my email address.
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:01 PM   #38
RED
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

...when in Rome.

MM
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:01 AM   #39
Flintstone
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
...when in Rome.
How simplistic...
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:32 AM   #40
raul rodrigo
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

How gratuitous....
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:45 AM   #41
niall
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.

Last edited by niall : 10-09-2010 at 01:50 AM.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:35 AM   #42
guest1234567
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Hi,
In our dojo we bow as a sign of respect to O'Sensei and our sensei, but we don't clapp.
As David wrote it is a practice in the shinto religion
You can see Hikitsuchi Michio Sensei in the Norito pray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D__Y8-d_1b0 clapping.
The Bujinkan also use to clapp as greeting and sign of respect.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:47 PM   #43
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
LOL love this

Lyle Laizure
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:53 PM   #44
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

The bowing and clapping can represent several things, as pointed out in previous posts. I think it is important to understand why you are if it is in your home dojo. (Best to ask your sensei.) Knowing why you bow and or clap is more important. The Japanese language can be so doggone confusing for the multiple ways kanji can be interpreted. Good luck.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:19 PM   #45
RED
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
How simplistic...
It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.

MM
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:50 AM   #46
Flintstone
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
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Old 10-10-2010, 05:19 AM   #47
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.
Did Sasaki Sensei (or anyone else) ever talk about the hand positions during clapping as per the Hikitsuchi video clip? Any other comments about hand positions welcome!
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Old 10-10-2010, 07:47 AM   #48
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class.
If they only watch and don't participate I don't see the problem. However, if Futsunushi no kami asks for some wrist grabbing...
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:39 AM   #49
niall
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Sorry Oisin, I don't remember any explanations about hands. Also the Manseikan dojos in Kyushu did the Shinto bow with clapping I remember.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 10-10-2010, 12:48 PM   #50
RED
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
Man your blood pressure must be out the window
Always freakin' out about stuff that doesn't matter, and doesn't have actual impact upon your life.

MM
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