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10-06-2010, 08:32 AM
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#26
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
But I don't see the point in enforcing bowing and/or clapping that some guy defend arguing that these practices are one with Aikido.
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These practises are Aikido, and you are a saracen.
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10-06-2010, 02:16 PM
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#27
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Done. Dusted.
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I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.
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10-06-2010, 03:27 PM
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#28
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Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
I guess "dusted" is also supposed to mean something to me. I can think of a few possibilities, but I don't much like the only ones that would fit.
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Well, they say we are divided by a common language.
I assure you its nothing bad.
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10-06-2010, 06:14 PM
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#29
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Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 660
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Always been a personal point for me..... everyone claps at several dojos I have visited, no-one claps at ours, should I "conform", or do I allow the act to be invested with more meaning than some others give it?
It has been explained as the "calling of the Kami"
It has been explained as "gathering everyones attention"
I just sit quietly as it happens (or not) and nobody has ever had issue with me not participating.
Just one approach to the question
If you are respectful of others, and their beliefs, then it all works out ok as a rule.
Just my 2-cents
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Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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10-06-2010, 06:27 PM
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#30
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Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Alejandro, it's really a matter of whether there's a Shinto shrine in the room. The clapping is done toward the shrine, where there would be a mirror and other Shinto implements. And in serious Shinto, the person who maintains the shrine would maintain it for a kami--a Shinto deity that would bless, protect and inspire the place and all the people in it. That's why it's called a "kamiza," meaning "seat of the god."
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"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.
What you are thinking of is "kamidana" - 神棚, a miniture shrine.
There is a word that means "seat of the god" - 神座, but this is read "shinza", and refers NOT to miniture Shinto shrines in dojo and other places, but rather to the actual place where the kami is held to reside in full size Shinto shrines (jinja).
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Josh Reyer
The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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10-07-2010, 12:32 AM
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#31
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Dojo: Aikido of Champlain Valley/Hamamatsu Aikidokai/Aikido Shidokai
Location: Hamamatsu, Japan
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 97
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
The Aikikai dojos where I have seen bowing have all had some connection to Iwama. I am not sure if this is something that O Sensei added when he founded that dojo or whether he always did it and Hombu took the clapping out. Clapping at Iwama may have been done there because of its proximity to the shrine. It seems that people with Iwama lineage do it and people with hombu do not. What do Yoshinkan,Yoseikan, Tomiki, and Ki Society folks do?
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10-07-2010, 04:26 AM
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#32
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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10-07-2010, 09:06 AM
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#33
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Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote:
"Kamiza" - 上座, merely means "upper seat, seat of honor", and is purely a convention of etiquette, with no inherent religious meaning.
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Thanks, Joshua.
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"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
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10-07-2010, 10:16 AM
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#34
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Of course Joshua is right for a normal room but you're right too, David. I've heard that explanation for dojos more than once. I just found this link to a Daito Ryu page in Japanese that says the same thing: kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods (and this article uses the 神座 form).
http://www.daitouryu.com/japanese/co...l_bumon04.html
Last edited by niall : 10-07-2010 at 10:27 AM.
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we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats
aikiweb blog| wordpress blog
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10-07-2010, 03:11 PM
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#35
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Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Offline
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote:
kamiza can be written 上座 upper seat or 神座 seat of the god or gods...[/url]
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Interesting, Niall. Thanks to you, too.
David
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"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu
"Eternity forever!"
www.esotericorange.com
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10-08-2010, 03:29 AM
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#36
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Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 659
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
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...whooosh.....
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10-08-2010, 07:21 PM
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#37
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Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 394
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Rey, why didn't you just ask Sakamoto Sensei to Takeguchi Sensei? I'm sure Darrell or Donna could have gotten the answer for you from them.
You could also ping me. Paul and Stella have my email address.
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10-08-2010, 11:01 PM
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#38
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
...when in Rome.
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MM
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10-09-2010, 01:01 AM
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#39
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Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote:
...when in Rome.
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How simplistic...
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10-09-2010, 01:32 AM
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#40
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Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
How gratuitous....
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10-09-2010, 01:45 AM
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#41
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.
Last edited by niall : 10-09-2010 at 01:50 AM.
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we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats
aikiweb blog| wordpress blog
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10-09-2010, 10:35 AM
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#42
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Hi,
In our dojo we bow as a sign of respect to O'Sensei and our sensei, but we don't clapp.
As David wrote it is a practice in the shinto religion
You can see Hikitsuchi Michio Sensei in the Norito pray http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D__Y8-d_1b0 clapping.
The Bujinkan also use to clapp as greeting and sign of respect.
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10-09-2010, 05:47 PM
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#43
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Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 566
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
I thought it was because we're happy and we know it...
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LOL love this
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10-09-2010, 05:53 PM
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#44
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Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 566
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
The bowing and clapping can represent several things, as pointed out in previous posts. I think it is important to understand why you are if it is in your home dojo. (Best to ask your sensei.) Knowing why you bow and or clap is more important. The Japanese language can be so doggone confusing for the multiple ways kanji can be interpreted. Good luck.
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10-09-2010, 06:19 PM
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#45
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
How simplistic...
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It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.
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MM
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10-10-2010, 02:50 AM
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#46
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Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Offline
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote:
It's best not to complicate what is simple, or simplify what is complicated.
Pick your battles, and keep your hands clean.
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So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
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10-10-2010, 05:19 AM
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#47
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Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote:
I forgot that Masando Sasaki Sensei did the Shinto bows and clapping at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo when he used to teach there on Saturdays. He was a Shinto priest.
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Did Sasaki Sensei (or anyone else) ever talk about the hand positions during clapping as per the Hikitsuchi video clip? Any other comments about hand positions welcome!
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10-10-2010, 07:47 AM
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#48
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class.
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If they only watch and don't participate I don't see the problem. However, if Futsunushi no kami asks for some wrist grabbing...
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10-10-2010, 08:39 AM
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#49
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Sorry Oisin, I don't remember any explanations about hands. Also the Manseikan dojos in Kyushu did the Shinto bow with clapping I remember.
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we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats
aikiweb blog| wordpress blog
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10-10-2010, 12:48 PM
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#50
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
Offline
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Re: Bowing in question - Clapping?
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
So your strong Christian beliefs allow you to call for the Shinto kamis to come sit and watch the class. It's ok for me, but maybe not so for your Church. It's not just a matter of "when in Rome".
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Man your blood pressure must be out the window
Always freakin' out about stuff that doesn't matter, and doesn't have actual impact upon your life.
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MM
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