Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-03-2004, 07:28 AM   #1
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 427
Offline
keiko

~~Meaning? ~~

~~Paula~~
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 07:53 AM   #2
Thalib
 
Thalib's Avatar
Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 504
Indonesia
Offline
Tracing the old?

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 08:03 AM   #3
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
To reflect deeply upon the past...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 09:15 AM   #4
ze'ev erlich
 
ze'ev erlich's Avatar
Dojo: Masatake Dojo - Israel Aikikai
Location: Rehovot - Israel
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 167
Israel
Offline
The Kanji and the original meaning of the word "keiko" had deep and spiritual meaning.

However in everyday Japanese the word simply means: "practice; training".

Ze'ev.

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
www.aikikai.org.il
Israeli Aikikai

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 04:42 PM   #5
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 427
Offline
~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?

Thanks!

~~Paula~~
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 04:58 PM   #6
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?
Probably the same way (as someone suggested on these boards recently) that practicing "Martial" arts doesn't imply worship of Mars.

If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 05:34 PM   #7
Peter Goldsbury
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,308
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.
Hello Don,

The place you are thinking of is probably Chapter 4 ("The Method") in the "Classical Budo" volume, except that Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once. Basically, training is what you do until you attain the heights of the DOU level, after which it becomes practice.

It is a nice, romantic, chapter, similar in tone to what aikido teachers sometimes adopt over a beer after keiko/renshu, when they wax lyrical and spice the discourse with gnomic quotes from M Ueshiba. I have heard the Draeger chapter expounded a number of times so far, so please pardon my laid back tone.

The problem is that Draeger is of no value for distinguishing between 'keiko' and 'renshu'. Both terms can apply equally to all stages of the process he describes.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2004, 07:28 PM   #8
Thalib
 
Thalib's Avatar
Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 504
Indonesia
Offline
A shihan from Aikikai honbu dojo on his visit to Indonesia, during practice before yudansha test, was quite angry looking how most of us(Indonesians) were training/practice. I'm not going to go into the details.

One thing that he said made me think, "Everytime you go into the dojo to train... no it's not training... practice... no it's not practice either... it is keiko... it is tracing the old..."

P.S.: 3 periods (...) symbolizes pause...

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 02:18 AM   #9
Peter Goldsbury
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,308
Japan
Offline
Here is some relevant information concerning ekeikof, erenshuf and ekenshuf from the eNihon Kokugo Daijitenf. In all cases the meanings are given, together with the earliest references given in the dictionary. I have added a few notes and comments, but I apologize that time commitments have prevented an English translation. I leave that to the Japanese experts in this forum.

Keiko

ŒmŒÃ

1. ŒÃŽ--‚ðl‚¦‚ÄA•¨Ž--‚Ì‚©‚‚Ă ‚Á‚½‚ ‚è•û‚Æ‚±‚ê‚©‚ç‚ ‚é‚ׂ«Žp‚Æ‚ð³Šm‚É'm‚邱‚ÆB

ŽO‘ãŠi|\ŽµEOm\ŽO"Ni822jŽOŒŽ"ñ\˜Z"úE‘¾­Š¯•„

2. ‘‚ð"Ç‚ñ‚ÅŠw--â‚·‚邱‚ÆB‚Ü‚½AŠw‚ñ‚¾‚Æ‚±‚ë‚ð•œK‚·‚邱‚ÆBŠw--âBŠwKB

ŽO‘ãŠi|ˆêEOmŠi˜i830j

3. C‹ÆB—ûKB"Á‚É•pAŒ|"\‚Ȃǂɂ‚¢‚Ä‚¢‚¤‚±‚Æ‚ª‘½‚¢B

•½Ž¡i1220 ‚©jãEM—ŠM¼•s‰õ‚ÌŽ--

4. Cs‚ÌŒ÷‚ðÏ‚ñ‚ÅAŠwŽ¯‚âË"\‚ª‚·‚®‚ê‚Ä‚¢‚é‚Æ‚‚­•]‰¿‚³‚ê‚邱‚ÆB

‰Ô‰€"Vc›‚‹L|Œ³‰ž"ñ"Ni1320j‹ãŒŽ"ñ"ú

5. "Á‚ÉA‹ê•×—サ‚ČÎ--‚ɂ‚­‚Æ‚¢‚¤ˆÓ‚ð‹­‚ß‚Ä‚¢‚¤B

--¼ŒŽ‹L|³Œ³Œ³"Ni1207j\ˆêŒŽ"ª"ú

Note: The connection with ancient learning, probably Chinese learning & the rote learning of ancient texts, is quite strong and the earliest reference to keiko as training in the martial arts is for 1220, which is, quite appropriately, in the middle of the Kamakura bakufu.

Renshu

—ûK

Šw--â‚â‹ZŒ|‚È‚Ç‚ðŒJ‚è•Ô‚µŠwK‚·‚邱‚ÆB‚Ü‚½Aˆê'è‚Ìì‹Æ‚ð"½•œ‚µ‚ÄA‚»‚Ì‹Zp‚ðg‚É ‚‚¯‚邱‚ÆB

--¾t‰—ˆimid-11Cj

Note: The reference here to internalization by repetition is noteworthy, whether in scholarship or the arts.

Kenshu

Œ¤C

Šw--â‚â‹ZŒ|‚È‚Ç‚ðA‚Ý‚ª‚«‚¨‚³‚߂邱‚ÆB‚Ü‚½A‚ ‚éEˆæ‚ÅAE‹Æã•K—v‚È'mŽ¯‚â‹Z"\‚ð ‚‚ß‚éEˆõ‚ðˆê'èŠúŠÔ‹³ˆç‚·‚邱‚Æ‚â‚»‚Ì‚½‚ßuK‚Æ‚¢‚¤B

•‚¢Šá‚Æ'ƒF‚Ì--Úi1914j

Note: This is quite different from the other two and has the connotation of honing a skill or undertaking special training for a particular purpose.

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 02-04-2004 at 02:25 AM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 01:22 PM   #10
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once.
You're right. I obviously interpolated the Jpn terms.

Thanks for the detailed post on the two terms.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2004, 03:30 PM   #11
Tatiana
Dojo: Lenwakan
Location: São Paulo
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 64
Brazil
Offline
Re: keiko

It depends on the kanji. It can be a girl's name (in fact, before I found this forum, That was the only way I knew it... hehe)

It is kind of like training, but there is a more spiritual connotation (I think). For regular sports, like baseball, you would say renshu. It could also mean practise, or to reflect deeply on the past...

ŒmŒÃ KEIKO. This is a compound word composed of
(1) Œm The ‘厚Œ¹ Daijigen gives 'kanga(eru)' and 'todo(meru)' as readings for this word. There are several basic meanings: to think or dispute, to stop, and to bow low. The Chinese-derived reading (from ji / qi) is KEI. This is combined with:
(2) ŒÃ furu(i), inishie, meaning old or ancient times. The Chinese-derived reading (from gu) is KO and the combination gives KEI-KO, which means to consider or contemplate ancient matters and by transference, to pursue scholarship, academic learning, or other training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2004, 03:39 PM   #12
saltlakeaiki
 
saltlakeaiki's Avatar
Dojo: Salt Lake Aikikai
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 76
Offline
Re: keiko

Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat

If it wasn't for the goat, you couldn't get in here for propaganda!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2004, 12:55 AM   #13
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
Offline
Re: keiko

Hi David,
Quote:
David Iannucci wrote:
Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat
It looks like Tatiana was merely quoting other people on the AikiWeb Forums:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...98&postcount=3
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...00&postcount=6

Tatiana, please do follow basic netiquette and let us know when you're quoting others... Thanks.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2004, 07:17 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
Re: keiko

I like that phrase "to trace the old"...seems to convey a little something extra. Thanks all for the contributions.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Article: Keiko by "The Mirror" AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 7 03-08-2008 10:29 AM
Shoshun Keiko Omaha, Nebraska DarkShodan Seminars 1 03-24-2004 08:57 AM
Keiko, Renshu, (Waza o) Nusumu Peter Goldsbury Japanese 2 01-03-2003 06:04 PM
Seminar/Event: Kyoto Aikikai Aikido Summer Keiko in Israel AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 06-01-2001 09:23 AM
Israel Aikikan Dojo Special Spring Keiko ze'ev erlich Seminars 0 03-12-2001 03:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:10 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate