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Old 07-29-2002, 01:20 AM   #201
Fminor
 
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Quote:
Ari Fuchs (memyselfandi) wrote:
As to the Kamiza; He said that normal bowing for respect is not an issue, but we are not allowed to bow in any form of fealty or adulation to a graven image (or person for that matter). So in other words, bowing to Kamiza is out.
Is it just me or do I hear a contradiction ?

Most of us talked over this thread about Kamiza being a way to show respect and gratefulness to O-Sensei and to the other Aikidokas.
By no mean do we worship or idolizes O-Sensei or the Aikidokas (except for the cute guy in hakama... but that's a different story).
According to your Rabbi - it's normal to bow out of respect, so why determine "Kamiza is out" ?

Efrat
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Old 07-29-2002, 03:22 AM   #202
Joshua Livingston
 
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Quote:
Efrat Nir (Fminor) wrote:
Is it just me or do I hear a contradiction ?

Most of us talked over this thread about Kamiza being a way to show respect and gratefulness to O-Sensei and to the other Aikidokas.

By no mean do we worship or idolizes O-Sensei or the Aikidokas (except for the cute guy in hakama... but that's a different story).

According to your Rabbi - it's normal to bow out of respect, so why determine "Kamiza is out" ?

Efrat
His rabbi considers it a graven image. Just because many of us choose to interpret it as something else doesn't mean that everyone does or can.

Though I do agree that this should not stray off the main topic and turn into a thread about other religious interpretations of the Shomen/Kamiza (besides how they affect Ari's main question), so if anyone has comments about my own interpretations of the Shomen/Kamiza, please start another thread in the spiritual forum and let me know that you have done so.

Joshua Livingston
Aikido of Ashland (USAF)
Gold Coast Jujutsu
Capoeira Zambia Congo Group
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Old 07-29-2002, 03:35 AM   #203
Fminor
 
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Quote:
Joshua Workman wrote:
His rabbi considers it a graven image. Just because many of us choose to interpret it as something else doesn't mean that everyone does or can
Hi, Joshua

I just couldn't resist answering you (though it does belong to a different thread)...
As I mentioned 100 posts ago (time just flies by...) - I'm Orthodox Jewish as well.
I was looking forward to the Rabbi reply, because I never really discussed this issue with a Rabbi myself (I made my own choices at this subject).
Ari's answer confused me and I wish he would clarify it.

No more Kamize talking from me...

Efrat

Last edited by Fminor : 07-29-2002 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 07-29-2002, 03:38 AM   #204
mike lee
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Thumbs up bad company

The devil weaves doubt in the minds of the innocent.
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Old 07-29-2002, 05:34 AM   #205
Joshua Livingston
 
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Re: bad company

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
The devil weaves doubt in the minds of the innocent.
Moo Wha Ha Ha!

Joshua Livingston
Aikido of Ashland (USAF)
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Old 07-29-2002, 06:25 AM   #206
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Quick question. What role does "intent" play in this moral/ethical/religous issue?

What I mean is, I am married. It is okay for me to "touch" woman in a dojo because my intent is to practice aikido. therefore I could grab there wrist or even around the waist.

In a bar or night club, doing the exact same thing may not be acceptable. Reason: the intent of my actions changed, not the mechanics.

In my view, if your intent is to practice then it would be okay. If thoughts are other than that, then no it is not okay.

Same with the Kamiza. If you personally view it as a sign of respect then it would be okay. If you view it as "idol" worship, then it is not okay.

It all is with the individual and their perception of "intent".

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Old 07-29-2002, 07:47 AM   #207
mike lee
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Cool hey baby

Jesus said that if one looks at a woman with lust in his heart, he commits adultry.

He raised the religious bar by indicating that the wrong intent, not only wrong action, was a spiritual error.

Last edited by mike lee : 07-29-2002 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:53 AM   #208
"Sara M"
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mike,

doesn't it also say somewhere... thats everyone is tempted by satan (hence looking at a women with lust) its whether or not you react to that, that makes you wrong
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:09 AM   #209
Kat.C
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I believe Mike has it right, sin is not necessarily a physical act.

Last edited by Kat.C : 07-29-2002 at 12:04 PM.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:27 AM   #210
mike lee
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Smile forgiveness

Temptation and intent are two different things -- although one can influence the other, if you let it.

Everybody makes mistakes, even when it comes to learning about intent. The trick is to realize what the mistakes are and then get back on the right path.

Last edited by mike lee : 07-29-2002 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:39 AM   #211
"Sara M"
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kat, i didn't say he was wrong...
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Old 07-29-2002, 11:31 AM   #212
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Quote:
Sara Moore (Sara M) wrote:
kat, i didn't say he was wrong...
I didn't say you did.

In fact when I posted my reply I hadn't even seen yours. I was just agreeing with what Mike said in response to what Kevin posted.

I will add though, that even if one starts out the practice with just practice in mind, if your thoughts stray to umm, lust, then that would be sinning, (unless of course its lust for your spouse). I think that is what Ari was concerned with.

And yes Sara, the bible says satan will try to tempt us, and if you give in, even only in your thoughts, its sinning. nfortunately its usually fun stuff.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 07-29-2002, 02:25 PM   #213
Kenn
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Straight Face

Sin is subjective.

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:59 PM   #214
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But respect is Universal.

"He who knows best knows how little he knows." -Thomas Jefferson
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Old 08-11-2002, 07:41 PM   #215
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Just curious, but whatever became of this?

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 08-11-2002, 07:44 PM   #216
Kenn
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Quote:
Eric O&#039Sullivan (Rev_Sully) wrote:
But respect is Universal.
perhaps, but respect is also earned.

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 08-11-2002, 08:32 PM   #217
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Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
I didn't say you did.

I will add though, that even if one starts out the practice with just practice in mind, if your thoughts stray to umm, lust, then that would be sinning, (unless of course its lust for your spouse). I think that is what Ari was concerned with.

And yes Sara, the bible says satan will try to tempt us, and if you give in, even only in your thoughts, its sinning. nfortunately its usually fun stuff.
No, Kat, Ari is concerned with touching women. Period. He stated that he wasn't concerned about having sexual thoughts, which easily come to teenage males just by being the same room (which would rule out training in a coed class), but he specifically said that he was not worried about having sexual thoughts. He was only concerned about touching, because it is a rule. Similar rules in other religions put women in abayas, keep them from attending school, or driving.

BTW, the Bible also says: Now we have been released from the law---for we have died to what bound us---and we serve in the new spirit, not the antiquated letter. (Romans 7:6 )
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Old 08-11-2002, 09:04 PM   #218
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Quote:
Mark Pan (BrokenKnees) wrote:
Personally, Colleen, I think you know a great deal about Aikido. However, I have to take umbrage with what you say about the Catholic church. Sorry everyone, for making this a religious issue, but as a God-fearing Catholic, I can't let this slip without registering my protest. I won't however say more...except that Colleen, you should've known better.

Uhmm, so the fact that the Pope had to call a special meeting to decide how to deal with rampant (pardon the pun)sexual misdeeds and rape by priest, primarily homosexual in nature, has nothing to do with centuries of reinforcing over-and-over to youth that touching the opposite sex was BAD, but OK as long as the same sex? yeah, right. Or I guess it's just one huge coincidence that there are daily reports in any of the three newspapers I read, and that not only my parrish, but two adjoining ones have had to remove priests in the recent months? yep, I'm definately off base on this one.
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Old 08-11-2002, 09:57 PM   #219
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ca

I really don't want to get into this , but, I must point out that there is a difference between not being able to touch another woman but your wife (or man but your husband ) and not being able to touch a member of the opposite sex, period.
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Old 08-11-2002, 11:41 PM   #220
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"yep, I'm definately off base on this one."

Yes Coleen, you are.

You should read up a little more. I'm sure you don't just depend on the newspapers for your info. You DO know about newspapers and news right?

PS; If you'd like to discuss this off-list, I'd be glad to.
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Old 08-12-2002, 12:43 AM   #221
Kate Qazi
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"Similar rules in other religions put women in abayas, keep them from attending school, or driving."

I know what you're getting at, and I guess I understand why you think that, but you're wrong. There are no rules in Islam mandating any of those. These are all cultural issues, not religious ones.

Kate
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Old 08-12-2002, 08:12 AM   #222
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IMHO, even if I don't personally agree or follow another's belief, I want to respect and accept it. That is the basis of harmony, two different notes that vibrate together to sound good, versus dischord. If we want to challenge other rigidity, maybe we should start by examining our own.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-12-2002, 11:39 AM   #223
Bruce Baker
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The whole point of the poor fellow being caught up in the religious fervor of his religion, verses the impure thoughts that will be forced upon him with physical touch. I say, let him grow up. If he is not ready to practice without convelooting the entire process of training into a sexual encounter, Go somewhere else.

Otherwise, get a grip, go to practice, deal with life, his religious issues, and find a solution that will befit intelligence of an adult, not a child.
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Old 08-12-2002, 12:01 PM   #224
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Oh yeah, I just wanted to point out that thinking of commiting a sin is not in itself a sin (at least not for Jews ).

PS - "Romans" is a christian book I believe . Part of that "New" fangled Testament

Disclamer: Just because I say it, don't mean it's true I'm not actually qualified to preach Judaic law. I'm just explaining it how I best understand it.
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Old 08-12-2002, 12:50 PM   #225
Paul Clark
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Quote:
Similar rules in other religions put women in abayas, keep them from attending school, or driving.
Colleen,

Careful, don't buy the same misunderstanding a certain other officer is trying to sell. Abaya and driving in Saudi have more to do with traditional Arab, bedouin values than with Islam. As proof, note that you don't find abaya anywhere across Muslim North Africa, nor in the Levant, nor in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, or basically anywhere outside the Gulf (Iran another exception, but only since 1979, and that won't last). These things are national/cultural issues, not religious.

Also, my wife is closely acquainted with a number of Saudi women (I'm not, since I'm not allowed to be), and she informs me that while you hear of the occasional Saudi woman who would like to shed the abaya, the vast majority feel protected by it and would have it no other way. Many of them want to drive, though, and they're working on that, but if you've ever driven in Riyadh, you'll understand that one would have to devise a pretty comprehensive drivers' ed program to guard against the widespread carnage you'd get if you suddenly flushed several million new, untrained drivers onto the roads. :-)

Paul
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