Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-05-2017, 02:54 PM   #51
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,611
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I like the act first, then think. It all comes down to how to learn to train to act usefully without thought.

"If one simply focuses thought on NOT inhibiting..." - is this a distractive exercise, or something trained with meditation? Embracing and indulging reflexive activity like Krav talks about doing?

You describe the focus as an active process? What is going on in your mind then in the middle of a jiyuwaza? How does the biology get on the mat?

Lots to unpack, I enjoyed the readings.
"Do not think of the blue camel." Yeah, I know.

Though this is somewhat the reverse of that problem -- which is a lack of inhibition on image suggestion -- whereas we want to overcome an inhibition.

But the great fondness for Zen and the somewhat similar mikkyo religious traditions among the warrior set, seems to indicate a broad appreciation of paradoxical perceptual "trick(s)" in the art of killing and not getting killed.

I put it this way. Since there is a basis to say that the imitative perception/motor process "hangs" at the point of acting -- the "trick" is very much similar to the old "faces/goblet" ambiguous image. You SEE just precisely what is there, no more no less -- but you can only consciously recognize one at a time. Some people seems to have strong difficulty with this -- while others get very good at "switching" back and forth. For me, and those I've shared that image experience with, it really can;t be done consciously, but you can "work at it" until it shifts pretty much at will -- but it still has very "indirect" feel to it.

The pattern-recognition cascade part seems somewhat similar (to me) to the motor cascade part. The active semi--conscious recognition/action process part gets "hung up" until you figure out how to "switch" your brain with whatever "passive" subconscious cues there are that make the "switch" work in background.

I suspect sensitizing to implied rhythm has a lot to do with it-- and music and/or dance have ALWAYS been closely associated with martiality -- in almost every culture -- and Japan foremost if not superlatively in the case of dance. Maai in the sense of rhythm or musical interval or beat has been talked of in these terms over the years. I think that the conduct of group aiki-taiso and collectively vocalized (e.g. --"Ei!" and "Sa!" on funetori -- or the "Ei!" "Yah!" and "Toh!" in the sword schools and similar variations) are not far wrong for this purpose, and so seem to help, in my experience.

For years I puzzled at WHY these kinds of verbalized exercises were so strongly emphasized by Dennis Hooker, and at least to me he received and passed them on -- and kept any suppositions to himself. (I'm not as smart as he was -- I am entirely (too) willing to speak and remove all doubt of my possible foolishness - in the hope of learning more immediately what is or is not actually foolish).

For our training on the mat in light of my thoughts on these points, I emphasise training with a frame of mind consciously biased in this way -- to just act. If you think of anything, I urge, think of nothing but doing exactly what you see being done as you see it. Pattern-recognize after the act.

I would analogize it as trying to get the monkey-brain conditioned to just keep pushing the button, until, when the treat finally comes -- a clear behavioral association is made to whatever the heck is going on in the subliminal process to better predispose the stubborn primate to lift the pre-conscious inhibitions on the imitative motor cascade.

That said, this view of matters lends a sneaking suspicion that this capacity is not uniformly distributed in the population. The history of warrior classes suggests that it may well not even be a majority trait. That's speculative, but also kinda hard to disregard from my experience in watching the differences in progress that people of otherwise on-par mental and physical abilities -- still seem to show such a difference.

YMMV.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2017, 07:47 AM   #52
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,934
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
That said, this view of matters lends a sneaking suspicion that this capacity is not uniformly distributed in the population. The history of warrior classes suggests that it may well not even be a majority trait. That's speculative, but also kinda hard to disregard from my experience in watching the differences in progress that people of otherwise on-par mental and physical abilities -- still seem to show such a difference.

YMMV.
in most endeavors, you deal with three factors: training, experience and natural talent. You need appropriate training for the subject. After that you need experience. then last if you have natural talent, i.e. born with. You can be good with training and experience. natural talent takes it a notch up. not many have natural talent, but can still be good. it is perhaps one of the differences between soldier and warrior. soldier can be made with training and experience.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 11:06 PM   #53
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 782
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Spontaneity of technique are those that demonstrate:
  1. Immediacy
  2. Appropriateness, and
  3. Naturalness
Interestingly, technique that demonstrates immediacy, appropriateness and naturalness rarely resembles... well... technique.

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
And this is my biggest beef in associating jiyu waza with spontaneity. In jiyu waza it is (nearly) impossible to make the argument for true immediacy.
The forms we all practice provide us a framework for learning to let our technique appear as a natural consequence of the interaction between uke and nage. This is most evident during randori practice. It can also be demonstrated in jiyu waza practice if nage isn't wedded to demonstrating a catalogue of different "techniques" against the same attack and instead steps out of the box and just plays with the interaction in a let's see what happens manner.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2017, 04:58 PM   #54
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,611
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
in most endeavors, you deal with three factors: training, experience and natural talent. You need appropriate training for the subject. After that you need experience. then last if you have natural talent, i.e. born with. You can be good with training and experience. natural talent takes it a notch up. not many have natural talent, but can still be good. it is perhaps one of the differences between soldier and warrior. soldier can be made with training and experience.
All good points. I would say that a soldier v. warrior gap certainly holds true -- the Special Forces distinction probably marks this most clearly in our times, along with the pilot = cavalry observation. But I would also say that the potential soldier vs. untrainable civilian divide is probably a good bit wider than you seem to assume.

Even in WWII, arguably the most broadly levied war ever fought, Americans under arms were only about 10% of the American population. Very interesting differences exist between us and the other combatants, though. Japan -- arguably still moved by a strong warrior-class ethos -- men at arms were only about 5%: a relatively refined, and fierce, minority. Nazi Germany however, was mobilized to the tune of over 30% -- arguably the most thoroughly militarized society that has ever been. The Soviets started with a post-WWI mobilized Russian Imperial Army of 23%, but between immediate mass desertions, their Red-White civil war and Stalin's 1930's purges -- the Red Army of WWII was probably equivalent to the U.S. at about 10%.

If we took modern liberal prejudices into account and deemed women equally combat-capable (an historically and physiologically live debate), we might theoretically come close doubling those percentages. The Soviets did liberalize female military participation to an unprecedented degree in WWII, but still only managed 3% women out of the total Red Army, about 3-4 times the proportion of the other combatants. Still, only Germany could have - in theory- surpassed a majority of people capable of being militarized. Whether such percentages were or could have been meaningfully capable in the sense we mean -- I highly doubt it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2017, 04:55 PM   #55
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Interestingly, technique that demonstrates immediacy, appropriateness and naturalness rarely resembles... well... technique.
Ron
Maybe it's semantics, but one could argue that techniques that are not immediate, appropriate and natural do not, in fact, truly represent Aikido. So, here are a couple possible definitions that we might agree on ...

Immediate: without hesitation
Appropriate: the right technique at the right time - e.g. doing ikkyo when ikkyo is called for
Natural: corresponding to one's nature - one of my teachers was a slender, Japanese man, probably 5'7" or so. In working against taller, beefier Americans, he developed a bit of a hop to compensate. For one of his taller, beefier students to hop in the same manner would just not be natural.

The Aikido as a bike metaphor is sometimes handy - one wheel is for steering, one wheel provides drive - technique is the steering, spontaneity is the drive. A technique without spontaneity never goes anywhere.

Last edited by bothhandsclapping : 07-11-2017 at 04:58 PM.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2017, 10:55 PM   #56
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 782
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
...here are a couple possible definitions that we might agree on ...

Immediate: without hesitation
Appropriate: the right technique at the right time - e.g. doing ikkyo when ikkyo is called for
Natural: corresponding to one's nature - one of my teachers was a slender, Japanese man, probably 5'7" or so. In working against taller, beefier Americans, he developed a bit of a hop to compensate. For one of his taller, beefier students to hop in the same manner would just not be natural.
Keeping within the Jiyu waza/randori framework, I see "technique" as the totality of the interaction between nage and uke from start to finish. Within that context, what we normally refer to as techniques (individual throws or joint locks) are forms that arise naturally and appropriately from the dynamic relationship of the participants; as opposed to being imposed by nage upon uke. Immediacy is a consequence of the unbroken connection between nage and uke, neither participant is waiting around for the other to do something. The demonstration takes on the characteristics of a gestalt.

I would refer to that type of demonstration, be it jiyu waza or randori, as spontaneous.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2017, 06:57 AM   #57
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,407
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Sometimes the Tohei hop is appropriate just because it feels so fun......just sayin.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2017, 07:50 PM   #58
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,611
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Keeping within the Jiyu waza/randori framework, I see "technique" as the totality of the interaction between nage and uke from start to finish. Within that context, what we normally refer to as techniques (individual throws or joint locks) are forms that arise naturally and appropriately from the dynamic relationship of the participants; as opposed to being imposed by nage upon uke. Immediacy is a consequence of the unbroken connection between nage and uke, neither participant is waiting around for the other to do something. The demonstration takes on the characteristics of a gestalt.

I would refer to that type of demonstration, be it jiyu waza or randori, as spontaneous.

Ron
I like to analogize canonical (or other) waza as cross-sections of a continuous spectrum -- slices of the Aikido salami, if you will -- and depending on the angle and location of the cut the apparent difference of techniques is in fact in a continuum along the length of the body of the art.

Apparently different associations of components in a given event, are in fact inherently connected to the many unseen others that just did quite happen in that instance.

The grasp of the art lies in getting the body to reflect in itself the continuum of the action, so it doesn't really matter what happens in any instance -- they are basically all in the same cohesive form longitudinally - even though they appear in cross-section in one moment as very different.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 02:48 PM   #59
bothhandsclapping
Dojo: Both Hands Clapping
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 79
United_States
Offline
Re: The Problem of Jiyu Waza/Spontaneous Application

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Sometimes the Tohei hop is appropriate just because it feels so fun......just sayin.
Quite true ... until someone 6'3" and 220 does it and you're glad the kids weren't here to see what you do in class.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Greater and Lesser Problem R.A. Robertson Columns 7 01-05-2010 01:50 AM
Slight Ukemi problem Marko Ilic General 20 12-03-2008 01:16 AM
Irimi/too slow problem Esaemann Techniques 33 12-06-2007 08:35 AM
Account problem NixNa Announcements & Feedback 2 01-15-2007 12:29 PM
jiyu waza... question Jeff Tibbetts Techniques 24 10-28-2003 01:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:35 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate