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Old 08-17-2002, 07:28 PM   #26
Wiley_Allard
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truth of the matter

As a student of tkd my specaility may be only in striking BUT keep in mind you can adjust your style agaienst grapplers. for one most grapplers tend to forget to protect thier head and body thus leaving them open to uppercuts and one inch punches . Keep in mind that if they rush you simply lend them a small boost in the direction their trying for *wink*. Keep in mind though akkido throws actualy take much less energy then my style and rember slow movement and to get the heck out of the way if you perfom the movements corretly (that is one of the major points strengh though correctness of tech not strengh or speed) if you do this in single combat you will be completely in control and very well able to end the fight as you wish.
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Old 08-17-2002, 11:32 PM   #27
uke78
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Paw and PeterR are correct. Try going to a judo, bjj, or wrestling class. I went and got absolutely schooled. Nothing is funnier to them than traditional martial artists who think they can win with one punch or kick. I knew that already so I didn't try any funny business with them of course. Watching UFC and Pride objectively basically told me I had zero chance against these guys. They are not going to be faked out by irimi or tenkan. But watching it on tv is nothing like being there. At first I thought OK I can get up, but you can't, you're stuck down there and then they triangle you or armbar you. Obviously lots of aikido people are clueing into this now so that's really good. Back in the 50s everybody knew this already because they all did judo. Lots of aikido guys do judo so there is good knowledge there. Of course I still think aikido is the best for many reasons.
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Old 08-19-2002, 12:29 AM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
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You can tell his style if he studies one thing. I pride myself on having studied many systems.

I believe you would find it suprising to "spar" with me. I typically start out like a karate guy and then deviate more into grappling.

However, I have been known to take a boxing stance too!

To quote O'Sensei:

"Do not stare into the eyes of your opponent: he may mesmerize you. Do not fix your gaze on his sword: he may intimidate you. Do not focus on your opponent at all: he may absorb your energy. The essence of training is to bring your opponent completely into your sphere. Then you can stand just where you like".

O'Sensei as translated by John Stevens.

That said...it is true you can tell most fighters styles by their stances, especially if they have no depth in varied experiences!

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Old 08-19-2002, 02:38 AM   #29
davoravo
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Learn the Art of War

Attack your opponent where he is weakest. What is against the rules in grappling competition? Eye jabs, gouges, pinches, grabbing the groin. The minute you start doing these grappling is a waste of time.

David McNamara
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Old 08-19-2002, 03:07 AM   #30
PeterR
 
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Re: Learn the Art of War

Quote:
David McNamara (davoravo) wrote:
Attack your opponent where he is weakest. What is against the rules in grappling competition? Eye jabs, gouges, pinches, grabbing the groin. The minute you start doing these grappling is a waste of time.
Again that wonderful assumption that the grappler can't shift his tactics to the nasty or has an intention to play by the rules in the first place. If you are going to take on a grappler do it before he is in a grappling position. A swift knee to the face as he charges in come to mind - could you do that? Not sure I could.

The equation is really quite simple:

On the ground the advantage a grappler has far outweighs the chance that you can be nastier than him.

Last edited by PeterR : 08-19-2002 at 03:32 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-19-2002, 06:24 AM   #31
villrg0a
 
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does anybody here have a first hand experience with grapplers, judoist or wrestlers? Please share your eperience(s) if so?


Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
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Old 08-19-2002, 08:18 AM   #32
Bruce Baker
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If you are so concerned about having skills that apply to wrestlers and grapplers, then you will have to go and practice with them.

But ... if you observe the movements in many of your Aikido techniques, they do translate into strikes, offensive movements, and manipulations that come from Jujitsu or are taken into Karate.

Practice your Aikido, do your homework, and maybe ... this moot subject will finally be put to rest.

Wrestlers/ Grapplers need to use more Aikido cause they ain't gonna stay young forever, and their art is a young persons game.
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Old 08-19-2002, 10:18 AM   #33
paw
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um, yeah.....

villarrg,

I trained in aikido for 5 1/2 years.

I also have plenty of experience against ground fighters. Since 1997 I've trained with and competed against wrestlers, judo players, bjj'ers and sambists. Experience levels of those I've randori'ed with have ranged from newbies to national/international level in their respective art.

Did you have a more specific question?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-19-2002, 11:49 PM   #34
villrg0a
 
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Bruce

thanks for your input Bruce, rest assure i will practice more on my aikido techniques. We have 3 sessions/week @ 2 hrs/ session. I am not it a hurry to jump to the next level, I am taking it slow this time so that I could absorb the techniques more easily.

Paul

I've seen the ultimate fight no.1 where a jujitsu guy defeated everybody in that game. He dives down to his opponents feet in his attacks and had successfully brought all of them down. What would you do if you sparr with the same style and approach of attack? Thanks!

Last edited by villrg0a : 08-19-2002 at 11:52 PM.


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Old 08-20-2002, 06:09 AM   #35
paw
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villarrg,
Quote:
I've seen the ultimate fight no.1 where a jujitsu guy defeated everybody in that game. He dives down to his opponents feet in his attacks and had successfully brought all of them down. What would you do if you sparr with the same style and approach of attack? Thanks!
It's been a while since I've seen UFC I. I don't recall Gracie attacking in the manner you've described. <shrugs>

What I think you've described is a wrester's shot, most likely a double leg --- in judo this throw would be called morotegari. In the link, the wrestler finishes by dumping his opponent forward. Gracie would have finished by dumping his opponent on his back.

Personally, I would sprawl (I couldn't find any images, but click here for verbal description). After sprawling, I'd keep presure on the wrestler then do whatever. But that's me personally. I know a number of aikidoka that would not want to sprawl because they feel that doing so is playing the wrestler's game.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-21-2002, 09:23 AM   #36
Wiley_Allard
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With all due respect, some times one must play some one else game to win. If your a standing fighter your going to have a lot of trouble againest a grappler why? because a grappler is used to making to making you fight his way. So lets face you need at LEAST basic wrestling and grounding fighting skills. Keep in mind if the grappler does get you your back and goes for body press (chest to chest pin) keep in mind if they come over your legs theyll be open to the circle throw a mistake i made myself againest Steph one of my schools black belt in a pankraction match in my case i wass tossed out of the ring.
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Old 08-21-2002, 10:34 AM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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From a post on a thread on aikido journal...

I have found that the biggest problem for aikido vs ground fighters is ending up on the ground in the ground fighters control due to an inability to handle people shooting in for a double or single leg (with good wrestling posture). Once you are on the ground in their control, its really too late...you are in their range, and good training in that range (which they have) will almost always win out.

The best thing that I have seen that aikido has to offer against landing in that situation is the 45 degree pivot, combined with some method of controling the head (the classic wrestling crossface works very well). Using this combination (and some others), it becomes much easier to maintain a stable base (usually a kneeling base) and it opens the door for aikido's kneeling techniques, and helps to offset the advantage a ground fighter would normally have. Its no different from the usual aikido principles in that:

1) you maintain your posture

2) you break the posture of uke

3) you put your strength against the weakness that uke's broken posture provides.

Basically, you control the maai from the outset, rather than having to recover from a bad position on the ground. I have found this to work well against well trained wrestlers, once the idea has sunk into practise. Because of their conditioning and natural habit to drive through on a shoot, staying relaxed and maintaining posture and balance are extremely important.

Ron (for what its worth) Tisdale

see the entire thread (highly recommended)

http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ul...c&f=9&t=000884

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-21-2002, 11:57 AM   #38
Sam
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I have been practising Judo for about a year now and try to compete as often as I can. Because of the friendly atmosphere at the club, I have often been able to try my aikido out on Judoka of different experience levels.

When I first started, I found the most difficult thing to overcome was my vunerability to footsweeps, but I found that I was able to get out of most strangles due to the techniques I had already learnt to overcome them (as seen in the Shodokan Goshin no kata and Nage no kata). Now I have a bit of experience I try not to come to far out of shi zen tai as judoka are waiting for you to assume stance so then can attack it. I think trying to avoid a grab is a lot more difficult than most people make out - most grappling people spend a lot of time fighting for grips and will be experts at closing distance. The best thing to do if this happens seems to be to try to get a wrist lock on (i.e. nikyo using your gi) as quick as possible and put it on like there's no tomorrow. Sometimes this also works if you are in a desparate position on the ground and you manage to get hold of a hand/arm.

Also what a lot of people don't realise about judo is that there are atemi waza and a lot of techniques aikido people would find familiar (see 'Kodokan Judo' by Kano Jigoro) to you can't count out getting punched in the face!
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Old 08-21-2002, 01:44 PM   #39
Wiley_Allard
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in response to the idea of the cross face it is a good tech but keep in mind a well trained wrestlier TRAINS to avoid it. all that you have to do to avoid a cross face is to keep your head to the inside of hte leg rendering the cross face near useless iam not critizing iam just saying that a "well trained" wrestle would likely do that but it is an often made mistake in a fight (i should know ive been caught in it before)
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Old 08-21-2002, 02:15 PM   #40
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Upper cut.... upper cut.... upper cut. Get under the chin, press the head up and back. They can hold on all they want, the neck only tolerates so much pressure....

-Mongo
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Old 08-21-2002, 02:30 PM   #41
paw
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Mongo,
Quote:
Upper cut.... upper cut.... upper cut. Get under the chin, press the head up and back. They can hold on all they want, the neck only tolerates so much pressure....
In what context? That's not going to work if the wrestler has shot a double or single. A cross face would be the tool of choice in that case.

Uppercuts may be a strategy for an upperbody clinch, but I wouldn't count on it. Wrestler's have good clinch skills and would probably change levels and shoot if they thought they would eat a punch.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-21-2002, 03:53 PM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
wiley allard (Wiley_Allard) wrote:
in response to the idea of the cross face it is a good tech but keep in mind a well trained wrestlier TRAINS to avoid it.
Actually, having been a wrestler myself, I'm quite familiar with their tricks

95 degree pivot, crosstep back (maintain forward focus and posture), 95 pivot, exposes the head just fine for the crossface. I learned this practising with a former wrestler who went to states in PA.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-22-2002, 02:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
Mongo,



In what context? That's not going to work if the wrestler has shot a double or single. A cross face would be the tool of choice in that case.

Uppercuts may be a strategy for an upperbody clinch, but I wouldn't count on it. Wrestler's have good clinch skills and would probably change levels and shoot if they thought they would eat a punch.

Regards,

Paul
Paul,

I'm also a former wrestler from Neb. If you've allowed the guy in for the shot (single or double), it's too late. You must catch them on the way in. Cross face allows them to pivot off your arm.

There is no where to go but up or back with the upper cut. If they try to pivot off the uppercut it turns into a cross face but at that point, they've already extended themselves and "normally" can't pivot further.... it's really too dynamic of a situation to say one particular thing will work, too many variables here....

-Mongo
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Old 08-22-2002, 02:35 PM   #44
opherdonchin
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I have no experience of fighting and just a little bit of experience in cross-training, but my intuition tells me that a martial artist who is stronger, faster, more relaxed, and has more years of experience will usually be able to beat one who is weaker, slower, tense and inexperienced.

(In Hebrew we say, "It's better to be young, healthy, beautiful and rich than old, sick, ugly and poor.")

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-22-2002, 08:15 PM   #45
Wiley_Allard
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Ron thank you VERY much for that new lesson ill put it to good use the thought had never occured to me
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Old 08-22-2002, 08:28 PM   #46
Wiley_Allard
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OH speaking of which to get of the the double id do as a wrestler would just use the sprawl. Keep in mind there is a down side to groudn fighting as most wrestlers know it takes huge amouts of agility and strengh and lots and lots and LOTS of training. It also wears you out fast, now in pankration you deal with both ground and free fighting as well as grappling. now that think about it id proably go for a simple counter get an arm and put in a figure 8 lock that should atleast slow him down

i dont pretend to be bright but with my limted knowledge its the only real idea i can come up with
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Old 08-22-2002, 08:37 PM   #47
Wiley_Allard
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oh and sorry for the multi post but id like to point out the figure 8 arm lock is excellent tool since it can be done from standing , straddling *oppent*, or under side (on your back any way). its my absolute favorite hold and once its in your oppent will forget all about punching its not too hard to bring an oppent his knees with it and from ther they have no base to use againest you just keep in mind for you other guy step to the side or your um endowments will be left wide open
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Old 08-23-2002, 06:59 AM   #48
paw
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Mongo,

Are you uppercutting prior to the shot or as the shot is beginning (wrestler has changed levels, is starting penetration step)?

In either case, or even if the wrestler has grabbed a leg (or two) I can't get uppercuts to work....maybe my timing is poor?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-23-2002, 07:59 PM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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With a good grappler, he while "hug" tight and control your center, it can be very difficult to get an effective punch on him up close.

As a grappler, I really don't care if you are hitting me as long as it is not a vital area. If you are good, you position yourself to protect these as you grapple.

Even though you are making contact, it is not heavy enough to do any real damage since the grappler is not a extension of you body as is moving with the punches absorbing them.

If you don't know how to grapple, then don't grapple, keep em off you.

Having been there done that in my past, and having studied the UFC stuff quite extensively...the biggest mistake I see fighters of hitting/kicking styles make, is to quickly abandon their style once a grappler "shoots" and "moves".

I believe I already posted this, but to beat a grappler at grappling, you should learn to grapple. If not, then don't fight his fight!

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Old 08-23-2002, 08:00 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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oops last post should have read "since the grappler is NOW an extension of your body"

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