Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-27-2021, 07:09 PM   #1
diyfanatic89
Location: Reno, NV
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 2
United_States
Offline
Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Hi, everyone. I was on Wikipedia and as I was looking up Aikido techniques, the page mentioned that while many techniques from Daitō-ryū Aiki-Jujutsu are in Aikido, there are some techniques that were created by Morihei Ueshiba. I tried looking them up, but I could never find them. What are all the techniques he created?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2021, 04:18 PM   #2
Setok
Dojo: Ryushinkan / Rajamäki | Sasuga Daito Ryu / Helsinki
Location: Helsinki
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 28
Finland
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Be careful what you read on the Internet. So far I have not stumbled across any techniques in aikido that do not exist in Daito Ryu in some form. Then again, even many techniques O’Sensei taught are rarely or even never taught today in aikido (based on his Budo book), so it’s not impossible some of those old ones do not exist in DR.

The difference would seem to be more in intent and execution (at least in modern aikido), with aikido having bigger, more constant movement, and throwing uke away rather than dropping them to your feet. Doing aikido feels different, even when executing the same technical combination, although there are moments when DR feels aikido-like. Also DR does not, in my experience, do aikiken or aikijo, which may well be creations by O’Sensei, as there does not appear to be any strong connection to other weapon arts.

Happy to be corrected, however.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2021, 05:29 AM   #3
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 401
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Here's an interesting article on this topic here on Aikiweb.

The late Ken Cottier, one of the Western pioneers at Aikikai Hombu Dojo in the 1960s, used to say that iriminage was the one technique that Ueshiba O-Sensei created himself.

But then, the modern form of iriminage was argued by Stan Pranin to be a creation of Kisshomaru Nidai Doshu.

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 10-02-2021 at 05:35 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2021, 03:14 PM   #4
Setok
Dojo: Ryushinkan / Rajamäki | Sasuga Daito Ryu / Helsinki
Location: Helsinki
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 28
Finland
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Here's an interesting article on this topic here on Aikiweb.

The late Ken Cottier, one of the Western pioneers at Aikikai Hombu Dojo in the 1960s, used to say that iriminage was the one technique that Ueshiba O-Sensei created himself.

But then, the modern form of iriminage was argued by Stan Pranin to be a creation of Kisshomaru Nidai Doshu.

Alex
The Daito Ryu club I visit definitely does iriminage. And a very effective one at that (and it's not one of those ‘aikijutsu' places that do aikido with punches).

Then again the lines blur as in the beginning Ueshiba taught Daito Ryu. So even if he did come up with that technique, it could still be in DR now So interesting question: did Takeda do iriminage? Maybe the Soden books would shine some light on that.

Btw one thing to keep in mind is that most lines of DR itself have, I believe, gone through quite substantial changes, probably as a result of work done by Sokaku Takeda's son. It was interesting to find that Amatsu-Sensei and presumably his teacher Hisa-Sensei (Menkyo Kaiden) use aikido type names for techniques which are not unrecognisable from their aikido counterparts (ikkajo, nikajo etc are different from their meaning in other branches and basically the same as in aikido). I would not be surprised to find that the Soden books use ikkajo, nikajo etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2021, 09:51 PM   #5
Carl Thompson
 
Carl Thompson's Avatar
Location: Kasama
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 507
Japan
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

You might find this link useful. It's Jon Driscoll's correlation between aikido and daito-ryu techniques

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15096

Quote:
Projection No. 1 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage) ≈
Nikajo: Gyaku Dasuki
Ikkajo Uragata: Ryo Kata Hineri
Nikajo Uragata: Gyaku Dasuki
Projection No. 2 -- Irimi Nage (Kokyu Nage, Sokumen Irimi Nage) ≈
Ikkajo: Kirikaeshi, Ryo Kata Hineri, Ryo Hiji Gaeshi, Obi Otsohi
Nikajo: Suso Barai
Ikkajo Uragata: Kirikaeshi
Nikajo Uragata: Seoi Nage
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2021, 11:02 AM   #6
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 934
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

An updated version of the article Carl linked can be found HERE.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2021, 10:49 AM   #7
Bernd Lehnen
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 206
Germany
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

All of this can be very valuable from a historical point of view, may be it is. Surely it is for someone who likes to make analytical comparisons.
But for OSensei Ueshiba himself such a vast list and curriculum with attached names was possibly all secondary, if not even unnecessary ...

He apparently preferred to occupy himself with Takemusu, something very creative, which was possibly easier and paramount for him after he believed he had found access to something we today call "Aiki".

When his students exhausted themselves with such lists of techniques instead of concentrating on what he considered essential to them, one can understand that he would have outbursts of anger, every time he saw the execution of all this vane bogus ..

Vocabulary lists and grammar alone do not give you a feeling for language. They have limited uses, but nothing more.

Just a thought.

Best,
Bernd
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 06:29 AM   #8
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
United_States
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

I think that it is difficult to believe that O Sensei "invented" any techniques without significant (or direct) influence from his Daito Ryu knowledge (or one of his other martial experiences, for that matter). I would like to see Wikipedia's source for that claim...

Aikido reflects unique application of techniques and principles derived from Daito Ryu, and that in itself is an expression of artistry. There are only so many ways to twist a wrist or load a hip for a throw; eventually, fighting arts exploit similar movements.

In addition, considering the modern aikido curriculum is more strongly a product of Doshu and the students of O Sensei, it is even murkier water. We are guessing a unique origin of a technique observed by a student while performed by O Sensei. What may have been "invented" to those observers is an opinion based upon their experience and knowledge at the time of their observations.

Ueshiba was able to turn fighting techniques into unique expressions of power and skill and that is, in itself, amazing. Should it matter whether those techniques were original or derived from Daito Ryu? I don't think it should; but, I think there is/was pressure for aikido to separate from Daito Ryu and this is one of those lingering issues that still ties Daito Ryu to Aikido and that is a problem for some people.

I think Bernd is touching on a point that is uncomfortable with aikido people... If aikido is takemusu, but you need aiki to create takemusu... It makes it hard to realize what O Sensei was teaching, even if you mimicked the movements he showed as "techniques".

Take a boring arm bar technique. A average student learns 10 applications, a good student learns 100 applications, a great student learns 1000 applications. From one technique are born... Every martial art has an arm bar, do we concern ourselves with that when we watch an excellent UFC fighter apply an arm bar from a never-before-seen application?

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2021, 04:10 PM   #9
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 398
Serbia
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Steven Edward Angius wrote: View Post
Hi, everyone. I was on Wikipedia and as I was looking up Aikido techniques, the page mentioned that while many techniques from Daitō-ryū Aiki-Jujutsu are in Aikido, there are some techniques that were created by Morihei Ueshiba. I tried looking them up, but I could never find them. What are all the techniques he created?
Nobody knows because nobody has an exact idea of which techniques were in Takeda's Daito ryu while Ueshiba trained under him and especially before that period. Even the ones we can see today that look similar and you could say have influenced techniques in Aikido come mostly from Tokimune Takeda's Aikibudo in which he made adjustment and changes after his father passed away. Even some of those are different in places it seems like the ones in Aikido are almost "reinvented". It's simply easier to say that most Aikido techniques are influenced by Daito ryu and possibly some other arts. His koshinage seems to come from Yagyu Shingan ryu.

Here's an interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ginK...nel=JasonWhite

3.13 to 7.00 are extract techniques from vol 5 and vol 6 (ueshiba advanced techniques)
Christian
from 7.00 to 13.00 are extract from soden vol 7 . 8 .9 (takeda sokaku advanced techniques)

from 13.00 to the end of video : taninzu dori (mutiple opponent from vol.5)

This might give you some idea of the issue.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2021, 09:49 AM   #10
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,276
United_States
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Steven Edward Angius wrote: View Post
Hi, everyone. I was on Wikipedia and as I was looking up Aikido techniques, the page mentioned that while many techniques from Daitō-ryū Aiki-Jujutsu are in Aikido, there are some techniques that were created by Morihei Ueshiba. I tried looking them up, but I could never find them. What are all the techniques he created?
Techniques are just what you're moving, and as others have implied, that's in any lineage of movement. The human body moves in certain ways and at certain ranges of motion and all of them aren't invented. Maybe what they focus on is somehow a kind of creation compared to where they come from in the lineage, but ultimately, techniques (as far as I understand the word) are a form everyone has access to. I would guess that what he created had more to do with how he learned his own physiology more than anything else. I am guessing others not mentioned in history could do virtually anything he could do, too. Same for his teachers, and their teachers, and so on...on average.

My dad once told me that while living in North Africa he invented the bow without knowing what one was. He would have been around 5 and didn't realize that what he invented was ancient technology thousands of years before he was born. Did he invent it?

May I ask why you're so interested in talking about techniques he may have invented? My guess is he was a person who took lessons given, made insights, and in turn gave lessons for others to do the same with.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2022, 03:25 AM   #11
IvLabush
Location: Prague
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 79
Czech_Republic
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Kristoffer Lawson wrote: View Post
The Daito Ryu club I visit definitely does iriminage. And a very effective one at that (and it's not one of those ‘aikijutsu' places that do aikido with punches).
Soden 5th book contains more than hundred techniques classified as irimi techniques so not only one irimi technique exists in DR/Aikido. You don't have to look for it in WWW however if you're curious check YouTube channel where we work on elder Ueshiba snapshots.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 02:25 AM   #12
Setok
Dojo: Ryushinkan / Rajamäki | Sasuga Daito Ryu / Helsinki
Location: Helsinki
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 28
Finland
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
Soden 5th book contains more than hundred techniques classified as irimi techniques so not only one irimi technique exists in DR/Aikido. You don't have to look for it in WWW however if you're curious check YouTube channel where we work on elder Ueshiba snapshots.
Thanks. There are some practitioners from Ukraine who occasionally visit the dojo I go to in Helsinki (Sasuga), where they have long been teaching Soden techniques, as taught directly by their own teacher in a line that goes directly to Takeda. The old ways, before what is apparently an 'aikibudo' modernisation. Are you perhaps connected to that group?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2022, 03:03 AM   #13
IvLabush
Location: Prague
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 79
Czech_Republic
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

I'm from that study group and heard about Sasuga dojo. Now it seems separated from other Takumakai dojos however I can't be sure about that. Actually guys from Sasuga dojo came to Ukraine ones or twice but it's not so pleasant and sad story. If you'd like to contact me you may send DM.

Last edited by IvLabush : 01-26-2022 at 03:16 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 02:35 AM   #14
Setok
Dojo: Ryushinkan / Rajamäki | Sasuga Daito Ryu / Helsinki
Location: Helsinki
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 28
Finland
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
I'm from that study group and heard about Sasuga dojo. Now it seems separated from other Takumakai dojos however I can't be sure about that. Actually guys from Sasuga dojo came to Ukraine ones or twice but it's not so pleasant and sad story. If you'd like to contact me you may send DM.
Yes, while one of them actually brought DR to Finland (and maybe Europe?) for the first time, they split from Takumakai, apparently as Takumakai itself was changing the curriculum, or following newer approaches and less of the soden.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2022, 03:06 AM   #15
IvLabush
Location: Prague
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 79
Czech_Republic
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Soden is nasty for most people came from other arts so it's not about curriculum change but wishes of students. In Ukraine we have one class of Soden weekly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2023, 03:19 PM   #16
diyfanatic89
Location: Reno, NV
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 2
United_States
Offline
Re: Morihei Ueshiba Techniques

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Techniques are just what you're moving, and as others have implied, that's in any lineage of movement. The human body moves in certain ways and at certain ranges of motion and all of them aren't invented. Maybe what they focus on is somehow a kind of creation compared to where they come from in the lineage, but ultimately, techniques (as far as I understand the word) are a form everyone has access to. I would guess that what he created had more to do with how he learned his own physiology more than anything else. I am guessing others not mentioned in history could do virtually anything he could do, too. Same for his teachers, and their teachers, and so on...on average.

My dad once told me that while living in North Africa he invented the bow without knowing what one was. He would have been around 5 and didn't realize that what he invented was ancient technology thousands of years before he was born. Did he invent it?

May I ask why you're so interested in talking about techniques he may have invented? My guess is he was a person who took lessons given, made insights, and in turn gave lessons for others to do the same with.
Sorry for getting back to you so late. I haven't been on this for ages. To answer your question, I've always been interested in not just martial arts, but the history of them as well and I was just curious about the history of Aikido. Hope that answers your question.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 24 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 07-07-2013 05:40 PM
A Consideration of Aikido Practice within the Context of Internal Training Ellis Amdur Columns 71 03-21-2013 08:15 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 21 Peter Goldsbury Columns 18 07-29-2012 11:52 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 19 Peter Goldsbury Columns 21 09-02-2011 07:04 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 8 Peter Goldsbury Columns 60 11-24-2009 04:03 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate