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Old 01-26-2014, 10:34 AM   #1
Chris Li
 
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Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

New blog post! "Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu" the Dutch version of “Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi and Breath Training in Daito-ryu“, courtesy of Ernesto Lemke.

Enjoy!

Chris

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Old 01-29-2014, 08:44 PM   #2
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

An interesting side note to the breath training mentioned here - as far back as 2008 Dan Harden insisted that there were breathing exercises in the Sagawa line (there are earlier examples, I know, but this is the one that came up first in search), in opposition to no small amount of sceptacism.

And when this article appears in current times - there is hardly a ripple of controversy. It's interesting to see how much things have changed.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-30-2014, 07:14 AM   #3
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
An interesting side note to the breath training mentioned here - as far back as 2008 Dan Harden insisted that there were breathing exercises in the Sagawa line (there are earlier examples, I know, but this is the one that came up first in search), in opposition to no small amount of sceptacism.

And when this article appears in current times - there is hardly a ripple of controversy. It's interesting to see how much things have changed.

Best,

Chris
Well it makes perfect sense that Sagawa's Daito ryu had breath training in it. He certainly brought in a lot of other stuff from Jikishinkage ryu.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:24 AM   #4
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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Well it makes perfect sense that Sagawa's Daito ryu had breath training in it. He certainly brought in a lot of other stuff from Jikishinkage ryu.
I meant Sagawa, by the way.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:29 AM   #5
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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I meant Sagawa, by the way.
Well, Takeda certainly had Jikishinkage influence - although I note that the article talks about Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-30-2014, 09:51 AM   #6
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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Well, Takeda certainly had Jikishinkage influence - although I note that the article talks about Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best,

Chris
Hmmm. "Ya", "To", and "Ei" are fairly common kiai shapes...I wonder what the distinctions in Kogen Itto ryu are.

Re-reading this article today, I see some commentary I did not notice before on the idea that there is no vocalization in Daito ryu. Mainline Daito ryu certainly has that today, you can plainly see/hear it on any of the Kondo Sensei videos, and I think I saw a video of a Takumakai embu recently where they use "To!" when executing the finishing blow.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:14 AM   #7
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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Hmmm. "Ya", "To", and "Ei" are fairly common kiai shapes...I wonder what the distinctions in Kogen Itto ryu are.

Re-reading this article today, I see some commentary I did not notice before on the idea that there is no vocalization in Daito ryu. Mainline Daito ryu certainly has that today, you can plainly see/hear it on any of the Kondo Sensei videos, and I think I saw a video of a Takumakai embu recently where they use "To!" when executing the finishing blow.
When I Was training with Kondo there was some basic vocalization at the end of things, but nothing very sophisticated or pervasive.

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Chris

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Old 01-30-2014, 11:00 AM   #8
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Some of those stances and thoughts on breath are what make me question from the DR and other arts' lines what they consider breath power versus what would be considered breath power from a more traditional 6 harmonies perspective. I'm not convinced they're the same thing, but as was already mentioned, getting good info around what's being done is problematic at best.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:16 AM   #9
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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Some of those stances and thoughts on breath are what make me question from the DR and other arts' lines what they consider breath power versus what would be considered breath power from a more traditional 6 harmonies perspective. I'm not convinced they're the same thing, but as was already mentioned, getting good info around what's being done is problematic at best.
Budd, could you share more about what a "more traditional 6 harmonies" perspective is?

The concept of breath power I've seen in mainline Daito ryu is similar to what I have seen in Jikishinkage ryu - and I don't think it would fit the "internal" frame at all. It's pretty much about packing in a lot of power and then releasing it in some way that breaks your opponent. It could be that both systems reserve different kinds of breath training for higher levels, of course.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:27 AM   #10
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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The concept of breath power I've seen in mainline Daito ryu is similar to what I have seen in Jikishinkage ryu - and I don't think it would fit the "internal" frame at all. It's pretty much about packing in a lot of power and then releasing it in some way that breaks your opponent. It could be that both systems reserve different kinds of breath training for higher levels, of course.
Yes, that's pretty much what I saw in Shin-Koiwa with Kondo. Of course, there may well be things he does that I didn't see. OTOH, there are definitely 6H related methods from other traditional Daito-ryu lines.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-30-2014, 12:03 PM   #11
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Well and there's the rub, packing in power to release with the breath is in most martial arts in some form - the devil is in the details of how it's done.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:54 PM   #12
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes, that's pretty much what I saw in Shin-Koiwa with Kondo. Of course, there may well be things he does that I didn't see. OTOH, there are definitely 6H related methods from other traditional Daito-ryu lines.

Best,

Chris
But we seem to be counting Sagawa-den out along with Tokimune's line? So that leaves....?
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:03 PM   #13
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Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

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But we seem to be counting Sagawa-den out along with Tokimune's line? So that leaves....?
I haven't counted either Sagawa or Tokimune out - I'm just saying what I saw at Kondo's dojo.

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Chris

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