Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-06-2006, 09:53 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,320
Offline
Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of August 6, 2006:

Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2006, 12:11 PM   #2
ESimmons
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

I think you should start adding "who cares" as a poll option.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2006, 08:14 PM   #3
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Adding "who cares" as a poll option is irrelevent because it includes everyone who doesn't vote.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2006, 09:04 PM   #4
ESimmons
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Adding "who cares" as a poll option is irrelevent because it includes everyone who doesn't vote.
No, it will only include those who feel the poll is irrelevant. Those who don't vote will not suddenly start voting because of an added option.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2006, 09:51 PM   #5
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Eric Simmons wrote:
No, it will only include those who feel the poll is irrelevant. Those who don't vote will not suddenly start voting because of an added option.
Then maybe all polls should have a question, " Is this poll irrelevant?"

Go ahead, tread on me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2006, 10:25 PM   #6
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

I'm often confused by the addition of the "i don't do aikido" option for the same reason.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 02:45 AM   #7
MarkDole
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5
Guadeloupe
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

I think everything is aikido what is in harmony with aikido principles.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 03:24 AM   #8
Richard Langridge
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 62
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

I'm amazed that so many people voted "yes", given that you never hear the same definition of aikido twice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 03:36 AM   #9
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 470
Germany
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Richard Langridge wrote:
I'm amazed that so many people voted "yes", given that you never hear the same definition of aikido twice.
As long as the definition is vague enough, it should be generally accepted. Only when it comes to details, arguments start.
"Aikido is a martial art as taught by the founder O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba and his disciples".

Who does not accept this?

Well "real Aikido is only my aikido, the aikido taught by my sensei, his sensei and O'Sensei, when he taught Real Aikido". Now you can argue

Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 03:38 AM   #10
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
"Aikido is a martial art as taught by the founder O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba and his disciples".
what qualifies as one of his disciples?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 05:25 AM   #11
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 692
Israel
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
"Aikido is a martial art as taught by the founder O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba and his disciples".

Who does not accept this?
Korindo Aikido followers, who acknowledge some connection between Sensei Minoro Hirai (Korindo founder) and Ueshiba but do not consider Hirai to be a follower or disciple of Ueshiba.

I believe there are some other groups of similar concept. People who study Aikido martial arts that may be connected to Ueshiba in some way or not (heard there is some Daito-ryu derivative also calling itself Aikido).

By making such a definition, you are already making some assumptions not everyone agrees with.


Amir

P.S.
If you wonder about the history of Korindo, please search other threads in this forum and in E-Budo. As it is off-topic.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 08:41 AM   #12
Charles Bergman
Dojo: Shin Sui Kan/Genoa, Ohio
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

I think the best definition of aikido I have seen is in former Doshu K. Ueishiba's book in which he deifines aikido as "The Way of Hramony with Ki."

Typically, you are not supposed to use a term to define a term, but he spends a lot of time discussing the concept of Ki, and how hard it is to actually define. Understanding what "Ki" is, is the point of aikido training, and comes with practice and study.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 09:44 AM   #13
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 470
Germany
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
what qualifies as one of his disciples?
Now you are going into details, which are not generaly accepted

Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 09:54 AM   #14
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

This could get complex. I think a good definition of aikido must link the way of harmony with ki, aiki principles, and Ueshiba and/or desciples in some manner. Otherwise, arts such as Systema would fall in the definition. To me, if there is no linke to Ueshiba it should not be called aikido (I know some will disagree with that). Those arts should be linked to aikjitsu or aikibudo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 10:01 AM   #15
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 470
Germany
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
Korindo Aikido followers, who acknowledge some connection between Sensei Minoro Hirai (Korindo founder) and Ueshiba but do not consider Hirai to be a follower or disciple of Ueshiba.

(...)
By making such a definition, you are already making some assumptions not everyone agrees with.


Amir

P.S.
If you wonder about the history of Korindo, please search other threads in this forum and in E-Budo. As it is off-topic.
Amir, you are pointing your fingers, where it hurts

I did not want to add "and similar arts", as some people would reject many of those arts as aikido.

But why does Korindo call itself "Aikido", if it does not refer to one of the Aikido sensei?

If you really want to spoil my deinition, you might even ask if "martial art" is a term to define aiki-DO. A WAY is never an art.

Charles', i.e. Kisshomaru's definition is probably better than mine. In any case the higher the level the easier you find common sense.


As there is no trademark, you could say
"Aikido is everything that is called ", but I would use the term only if ...

best regards

Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 10:07 AM   #16
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 692
Israel
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Charles Bergman wrote:
I think the best definition of aikido I have seen is in former Doshu K. Ueishiba's book in which he deifines aikido as "The Way of Hramony with Ki."
Is this not a translation of the term Aikido ?

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2006, 11:14 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
But why does Korindo call itself "Aikido", if it does not refer to one of the Aikido sensei?
The term aikido was first used as a general category for a grouping of martial arts. Basically I believe it pointed toward arts that were not competitively oriented, and had links to koryu, though they were practiced as modern arts. In a general sense of course, and with all the usual caveats. Aikido Journal has some good articles on how the name was given.

The founder of Korindo aikido did train for a time with Ueshiba Sensei, but apparently he considered himself a contemporary more than a student.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 04:19 AM   #18
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Charles Bergman wrote:
I think the best definition of aikido I have seen is in former Doshu K. Ueishiba's book in which he deifines aikido as "The Way of Hramony with Ki.".
Then again, his definition of "Ki" and Tohei's might differ. One might have claimed to have more "Ki" than the other (just speculative )

Best training

David Y
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 04:37 AM   #19
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
Is this not a translation of the term Aikido ?

Amir
Does the translation of Ai, Ki, and Do vary when you consider them in terms of body, mind, and spirit? For example Ai for the body is different than Ai for the mind and Ai for the spirit. When you discuss the meaning of the words should you consider if the discussion is about the body, mind or spirit?

Go ahead, tread on me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 07:53 AM   #20
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

I don't think Aikido should be broken up in ai-ki-do.
I think it should be aiki-do, the way of aiki. Aiki being quite a complicated subject, but only when explaining 'aiki', one should mention 'ai' and 'ki'.
So the universally accepted defenition should mention aiki and do.

And someone mentioned that a sufficiently vague definition could lead to agreement. Unfortunately such a definition could be nothing else than a bad definition. Vague defintions always are.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 08:51 AM   #21
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Charles Bergman wrote:
I think the best definition of aikido I have seen is in former Doshu K. Ueishiba's book in which he deifines aikido as "The Way of Hramony with Ki."
Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
Is this not a translation of the term Aikido ?

Amir
Tautology. Yes.

"KI" discussions are great for this: Black Boxes, Tautology, and Reification.

Btw, interesting thread deriving from this nonsense question, no?

These polls remind me of Andre Breton, one of the founders of Surrealism. He used to lead his followers out on rock hunts. The putative purpose was to find that "guru rock" (my term) which would answer the question which the followers came to it with. This antecedent to the host of creativity books and techniques we find on the shelves of Borders, et al.

These equally silly (evocative) questions Jun asks are the (to some) abrasive which inspires the oyster to create the pearl. (Wow. I can't tell--did I avoid mixing metaphors?)

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 08-08-2006 at 08:56 AM.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 10:30 AM   #22
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
I don't think Aikido should be broken up in ai-ki-do.
I think it should be aiki-do, the way of aiki. Aiki being quite a complicated subject, but only when explaining 'aiki', one should mention 'ai' and 'ki'.
So the universally accepted defenition should mention aiki and do.

And someone mentioned that a sufficiently vague definition could lead to agreement. Unfortunately such a definition could be nothing else than a bad definition. Vague defintions always are.
Aikidoka that I have read about or talked to seem to agree on a definition of Do in Aikido as O'Sensei's way, or path. That mainly leaves a discussion of aiki. Does your meaning of Aiki change from when you are practicing techniques ( body) to when you are reading, researching or talking about Aiki in relation to mind and spirit?

Go ahead, tread on me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 01:53 PM   #23
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
I don't think Aikido should be broken up in ai-ki-do.
I think it should be aiki-do, the way of aiki. Aiki being quite a complicated subject, but only when explaining 'aiki', one should mention 'ai' and 'ki'.
So the universally accepted defenition should mention aiki and do.
Personally, I like this. But I think it's wrong.

One Mr. Tanahashi, IIRC, defined it your way in Susan Perry's Remembering O-Sensei: Breath Unification Method, but he's the only person I've seen do this.

I once facetiously asked Stanley Pranin if we could define aikido as the way to unbalance your opponent (functionally the same as Tanahashi's definition), and he unsmilingly dunned me that Osensei explicitly meant AI and KI and DO, the way of harmony of spirit, i.e., Osensei punned on the historical meaning of aiki making it a DIFFERENT meaning than had theretofore been accepted for aiki.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 02:53 PM   #24
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Does your meaning of Aiki change from when you are practicing techniques ( body) to when you are reading, researching or talking about Aiki in relation to mind and spirit?
I believe 'aiki' should first be discovered and explored in techniques. This implies body, mind and spirit, although I see no point in mentioning this. The reason for this is that I see too many people going philosophical/spiritual on aikido to a degree that is not justified by the quality/quantity of their practice. Those people would get the same results from folk dancing; unfortunately nobody is selling folk dancing in this way... And doing a 'martial' is just so much cooler.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2006, 03:01 PM   #25
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
I once facetiously asked Stanley Pranin if we could define aikido as the way to unbalance your opponent (functionally the same as Tanahashi's definition), and he unsmilingly dunned me that Osensei explicitly meant AI and KI and DO, the way of harmony of spirit, i.e., Osensei punned on the historical meaning of aiki making it a DIFFERENT meaning than had theretofore been accepted for aiki.
I don't know exactly what to reply to this, so just some remarks.
To me it is still not entirely clear how the name 'aikido' came to existence. But iirc O-sensei did use 'aiki' and 'aiki' seems to be a bigger problem than 'do'.
Perhaps we need to differentiate between the martial and spiritual ideas of O-sensei. (Don't ask me how, this is tricky stuff.) The martial aiki seems to come with some modification from daito-ryu. The term 'aikido' was accepted in the early 1940s (correct me if I'm wrong). If O-sensei became more spiritual in his later years, perhaps it was then that he began to explore the spiritual side of the martial aiki and started talking about ai-ki-do.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: How important a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 22 10-12-2005 05:11 PM
Poll: Does the philosophy of aikido need to be explicitly discussed during class for the training to be "aikido"? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 29 07-30-2005 08:36 PM
Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 26 05-16-2005 05:12 AM
Poll: Is "the way of harmony" your preferred English translation of the term "aikido& AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 8 03-11-2003 08:09 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:31 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate