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03-01-2011, 04:30 AM
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#1
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Uke Substitute
When practicing with a weapon do you see where the weapon is actually a substitute for an uke?. What you do with the weapon you can also do with an uke.
dps
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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03-01-2011, 07:22 AM
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#2
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
When practicing with a weapon do you see where the weapon is actually a substitute for an uke?. What you do with the weapon you can also do with an uke.
dps
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I move my body; I hope to be able to do this with a stick or an uke attached to me
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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03-01-2011, 08:10 AM
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#3
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
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Re: Uke Substitute
I don't see it that way, but then aikido wasn't my first exposure to weapons.
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03-01-2011, 08:56 AM
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#4
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
I don't see it that way, but then aikido wasn't my first exposure to weapons.
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Hi Mary,
Thanks for the reply; how is it that you see weapons as a substitute for uke as per David's original post? Or do you not see it as such?
Cheers
Rich
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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03-01-2011, 09:32 AM
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#5
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Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 865
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
When practicing with a weapon do you see where the weapon is actually a substitute for an uke?. What you do with the weapon you can also do with an uke.
dps
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When I started Iaido there's a kata where you make a thrust and then you turn 180 degrees to deal with another opponent. I was told to leave the sword where it is and just turn my hips and that it should be my hips and not my arms that pull the sword from the opponents body. The explanation was that I might not get it out if I just pulled with my arms and while I was doing this I would be cut down.
I find that kind of thing in Aikido: the relationship between how you use your body to manage a weapon and how you use your body to manage uke are quite close.
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03-01-2011, 09:54 AM
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#6
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
Hi Mary,
Thanks for the reply; how is it that you see weapons as a substitute for uke as per David's original post? Or do you not see it as such?
Cheers
Rich
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As I said, I don't see it that way.
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03-01-2011, 10:11 AM
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#7
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
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Re: Uke Substitute
I think of my weapon as an extension of me.
So the question becomes, do I/should I consider uke an extension of me?
If I'm properly joining with uke, then yes.
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Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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03-01-2011, 10:27 AM
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#8
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Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 562
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Re: Uke Substitute
My first thought was - I can swing uke up and down, bang uke against a tree, use uke against somebody else's uke...
Seriously though, lately I've been practicing a bit with a suburi jo that's almost my length and abut 1,4 kg. The only way I can swing that thing around somewhat neatly is by using my body movement and not my arms, if I try to use my arms I get very tired very quickly.
Pauliina
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03-01-2011, 10:57 AM
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#9
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
As I said, I don't see it that way.
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Ok, thanks for the reiteration, I thought one thing and wrote another, sorry about that; how do you see the use of weapons as relates to aikido?
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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03-01-2011, 11:05 AM
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#10
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Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
My first thought was - I can swing uke up and down, bang uke against a tree, use uke against somebody else's uke...
Pauliina
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you beat me to it. i was going to say i used uke as weapons before. it feel the same, except for the screaming.
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03-01-2011, 11:08 AM
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#11
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
you beat me to it. i was going to say i used uke as weapons before. it feel the same, except for the screaming.
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That is what duct tape is for.
dps
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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03-01-2011, 11:14 AM
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#12
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
Ok, thanks for the reiteration, I thought one thing and wrote another, sorry about that; how do you see the use of weapons as relates to aikido?
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I don't. I don't think about it. To be honest, I think that aikido is plagued with too much thinking, too much meta-discussion and analysis, based on not enough experience. I have enough experience with weapons to know that my sensei knows what he's doing and isn't just waving 'em around, and that's all I care about. Trying to make some kind of connection -- trying to intellectually force some kind of connection -- between weapons and aikido is really beyond me at this point. Oh, sure, I can parrot the things that everybody says, but I'd rather find the connection (if there is one) in a more authentic way. Do a thousand cuts, then maybe you can think about it a little bit. Just a little bit. Then get back to work.
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03-01-2011, 11:33 AM
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#13
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Uke Substitute
Take for example this kata,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ALo9nKAJY
can you image uke instead of bokken.
Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
When I started Iaido there's a kata where you make a thrust and then you turn 180 degrees to deal with another opponent. I was told to leave the sword where it is and just turn my hips and that it should be my hips and not my arms that pull the sword from the opponents body. The explanation was that I might not get it out if I just pulled with my arms and while I was doing this I would be cut down.
I find that kind of thing in Aikido: the relationship between how you use your body to manage a weapon and how you use your body to manage uke are quite close.
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That is along the lines of what I was thinking.
dps
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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03-01-2011, 11:56 AM
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#14
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
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Hi David,
I can imagine it, but I wouldn't raise uke above my head I would throw him below. Sometimes our teacher tells us to forget uke in some exercises, so that we relax our arms.
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03-01-2011, 12:09 PM
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#15
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
I don't. I don't think about it. To be honest, I think that aikido is plagued with too much thinking, too much meta-discussion and analysis, based on not enough experience. I have enough experience with weapons to know that my sensei knows what he's doing and isn't just waving 'em around, and that's all I care about. Trying to make some kind of connection -- trying to intellectually force some kind of connection -- between weapons and aikido is really beyond me at this point. Oh, sure, I can parrot the things that everybody says, but I'd rather find the connection (if there is one) in a more authentic way. Do a thousand cuts, then maybe you can think about it a little bit. Just a little bit. Then get back to work.
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How can one know one is making one thousand "correct" cuts if there is no thought or consideration; surely there is some risk that the end result is an ingrained error as opposed to enlightenment. I am not suggesting this is the case in your circumstance, I am only musing the general point.
Imagine, if you will, yourself in the shoes of someone bereft of your sufficient experience; how can they know or measure that what they are doing is correct? Only through blind faith? Through explanation? Some other means? I don't think there is any problem in thinking about what we do, in fact I think that as with many things in life there should be balance.
Maybe we should only be allowed one post in this thread per thousand cuts.... Ok I'm off to get more posting credit; back tomorrow!
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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03-01-2011, 01:01 PM
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#16
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote:
Hi David,
I can imagine it, but I wouldn't raise uke above my head I would throw him below. Sometimes our teacher tells us to forget uke in some exercises, so that we relax our arms.
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compare this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZj3_fXKm0
with this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc
Can you see the thrust, turn and cut in both videos?
dps
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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03-01-2011, 01:20 PM
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#17
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Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 601
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
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03-01-2011, 02:50 PM
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#18
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
How can one know one is making one thousand "correct" cuts if there is no thought or consideration
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Feedback from an instructor who knows what they're talking about.
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
Imagine, if you will, yourself in the shoes of someone bereft of your sufficient experience; how can they know or measure that what they are doing is correct?
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They can't. That's why they have to find a decent instructor, and practice.
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03-01-2011, 03:41 PM
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#19
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
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Yes, they are similar
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03-01-2011, 04:41 PM
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#20
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
Feedback from an instructor who knows what they're talking about.
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Ok... basing selection of this instructor on what?
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
They can't. That's why they have to find a decent instructor, and practice.
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As above, how do they do this? Without discussion and thinking, what do you use to determine if a given teacher knows what they are talking about?
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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03-01-2011, 06:00 PM
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#21
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
Ok... basing selection of this instructor on what?
As above, how do they do this? Without discussion and thinking, what do you use to determine if a given teacher knows what they are talking about?
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How is this baiting germane to the topic?
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Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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03-01-2011, 06:43 PM
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#22
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Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
I don't. I don't think about it. To be honest, I think that aikido is plagued with too much thinking, too much meta-discussion and analysis, based on not enough experience. I have enough experience with weapons to know that my sensei knows what he's doing and isn't just waving 'em around, and that's all I care about. Trying to make some kind of connection -- trying to intellectually force some kind of connection -- between weapons and aikido is really beyond me at this point. Oh, sure, I can parrot the things that everybody says, but I'd rather find the connection (if there is one) in a more authentic way. Do a thousand cuts, then maybe you can think about it a little bit. Just a little bit. Then get back to work.
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Strange comment for someone with over 1400 posts in 4.5 years.
To get back to the topic. I was going to say that I did'nt think of my weapons as uke because my weapons don't attack me. Then I remembered all the times I've been hit in the head by my own bokken.
There are specific techiques where you grab/control your uke much like a sword (yonkyo comes to mind). But I think the relationship between unarmed and armed techniques in aikido doesn't really have anything to do with using a weapons as some king of uke substitute. I'm not really sure how that would work.
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Jonathan Olson
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03-01-2011, 06:46 PM
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#23
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Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
The late Seigo Yamaguchi liked to do his waza as if he was doing suburi with his uke's body.
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03-01-2011, 06:48 PM
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#24
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote:
There are specific techiques where you grab/control your uke much like a sword (yonkyo comes to mind). But I think the relationship between unarmed and armed techniques in aikido doesn't really have anything to do with using a weapons as some king of uke substitute. I'm not really sure how that would work.
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Imagine uke holding on to your wrist(s) as you go through the weapons kata.
dps
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Go ahead, tread on me.
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03-01-2011, 06:50 PM
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#25
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Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 150
Offline
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Re: Uke Substitute
I don't keep count but estimating conservatively I've done at least 200,000 staff strikes. The quality of my taijitsu has been directly informed by it and I came to the conclusion long ago I would never teach Aikido to someone who refused to learn the staff because they really are one in the same. There are only two big differences. Taijitsu is much easier and a compliant uke can hide nage's mistakes.
The staff can't hide anything.
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