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Old 01-27-2004, 08:40 PM   #51
paw
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Ron,
Quote:
I should add that I think there is some difference between someone who trained with the founder of the art, and someone who has been hesitant (apparently) to disclose the specifics of his training history.
You are, of course, correct.

Asim,
Quote:
I can easily see the similarities in boxing and aikido. The principles of movement are very much the same.
Of course they are the same. They couldn't possibly be different as a long as people still have two arms, two legs and are governed by physics. The principles of movement are universal.
Quote:
When I say "aikido is what you make it", I am not saying it is "everything". You can look at aikido from so many different perspectives and train in a manner that best suites your needs.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who would say one valid perspective of aikido is death and destruction. There are IMO, perspectives that are counter to aikido, and it really isn't that hard to find examples.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-27-2004, 09:01 PM   #52
PeterR
 
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Quote:
James Vadakin wrote:
Peter,

With all due respect, you cannot expect people to dedicate years of their lives to something they try with an open mind but then find tedious. I paid for a 3-month package and attended almost every day that I could, so I feel I gave it a good go.
James;

I'm the last person to suggest you keep going to a place you are unhappy in. Clearly that dojo was not for you - I bet you good money I would have been out of that dojo in far less than three months. However, based on your very limited experience you were making judgements about Aikido in general that were pretty far removed from my own experiences. Not questions about whether this was normal Aikido practice but statements of fact.
Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote:
When I say "aikido is what you make it", I am not saying it is "everything". You can look at aikido from so many different perspectives and train in a manner that best suites your needs.
I think this is true - I also think that in the end Aikido as Budo trancends technique or rather the training in technique is a mechanism for developing the mental aspect. The counter examples that Paul states are basically counter to Budo in general so they too trancend technique.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-28-2004, 05:40 AM   #53
paw
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Peter,
Quote:
I think this is true - I also think that in the end Aikido as Budo trancends technique or rather the training in technique is a mechanism for developing the mental aspect. The counter examples that Paul states are basically counter to Budo in general so they too trancend technique.
You know, playing peacemaker takes away all the fun.....

Warm Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-28-2004, 05:43 AM   #54
Michael Karmon
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Re: "Martial" Art

Hi,

I find Aikido to be a highly adaqueat (if not the best) self-defince system around.

As many stated, violance in the streets is almost non-existant. Unless you live in the wrong side of Bagdad, Bogota or Sudan you are not likely to find dead bodies on your street on a regular basis. Even the work of soldiers is done from afar and rarely using hand-to-hand combat.

In this day and age of litigation breaking someone's nose or causing someone serious damage using these fancy bjj neck holds will cost you your grandchildren's college money.

I have trained with some proffesional bodyguards that claim that their main issue is with Non-hostile crouds and intruders. You might imagine that no selebrity or politician will be happy if his personal protection sent fans and supporters to the hospital.

These modern-day Samurai came to Aikido to learn softer ways to handle people.

How do I know my effectiveness? I train with the newbees. A guy fresh in the door has no Ukemi, does not know what to do and is mainly conserned in not getting too much damage rather then helping me do my technique. The newbee is also preparedm, he knows that I am about to do something. I can honesly say that Aikido works fine on newcommers. further more, Ikkyo and Nikkyo are devestating on people who can't get the ukemi right.

Eat, Sleep, Exercise and watch out for cars
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Old 01-29-2004, 02:55 PM   #55
AsimHanif
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OK Paul, since you want to have fun..

Are you then saying the principles of movement are the same in aikido and karate?
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Old 01-29-2004, 07:19 PM   #56
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
OK Paul, since you want to have fun..

Are you then saying the principles of movement are the same in aikido and karate?
If it's really good Karate and really good Aikido - than the answer is yes.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-29-2004, 07:38 PM   #57
paw
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Are you then saying the principles of movement are the same in aikido and karate?
More than that. I'm saying the principles of movement are universal for all activities when considering people.

prin·ci·ple noun

A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes

move·ment noun

The act of moving

By definition, the way a person can possibly move is governed by the natural laws of physics --- for any activity for all people. This is why, all things considered, baseball players throw a baseball more or less in the same manner, football players kick a ball in more or less the same manner and so on. Given the way people move, certain methods are more efficient (better if you will) at yielding specific results. <==== Period.

I suspect you're going to disagree, and I'll bet that your disagreement is not based on what I've described, but rather on tactical or strategic principles that karate may favor and aikido may not (or vice versa). That would be another something other than what I'm talking about.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-30-2004, 03:42 AM   #58
happysod
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Paul, you could at least leave some wriggle room in your post - I'm going to disagree with you just on general principles.
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:37 AM   #59
paw
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Paul, you could at least leave some wriggle room in your post - I'm going to disagree with you just on general principles.
Ok.

Basically, all I'm saying is there's only so many ways a healthy person (any healthy person) can move, regardless of the activity.

This leads to conclusions on how "best" to perform given tasks. For example, Mom always said, "bend down and lift with your legs, not with your back" when picking up heavish objects. And Mom was right, lifting with the legs is more efficient and allows safer lifting of heavier objects than lifting with the back.

Does a more common language approach give me more wriggle room or less?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-30-2004, 05:37 AM   #60
paw
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*somehow got a double post*

*editted to correct*


Mea Culpa,

Paul

Last edited by paw : 01-30-2004 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 01-30-2004, 06:38 AM   #61
happysod
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Thank you, yes it does as it opens the hole you plugged earlier with regard to generic as opposed to strategic principles. Your example is a good one as here one of mom's prime reasons in developing her principle of lifting is offspring safety. If instead, mom's strategy was munchausen by proxy she'd have developed the lift by the back only principle.

In a similar way, if your intention is to block and strike rather than deflect and throw, different, yet similar, movements can be perceived when dealing with the same attack but as the strategy for negating the attack is different... [insert rest of long winded dissertation here on "best" and general ode to harmony]

[note to self, must add smileys]
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Old 01-30-2004, 08:08 AM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
if your intention is to block and strike rather than deflect and throw,
Aren't you making certain assumptions about the 'intention' behind karate? I've been told at the higher levels that the intent may also be to close, pound, throw, pound some more. I'm being a little facicious here, but only to a small extent.

Check out the writings on Ushiro Sensei at www.aikidojournal.com. Gives an interesting perspective on 'karate'.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-30-2004, 08:53 AM   #63
AsimHanif
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Paul - the one assumption you made that was correct is ...Yes I'm going to disagree with you:-)

You can say X=good karate or Y=good aikido but that would be based on an individual's frame of reference. What is good is one thing. What is effective is another.

I disagree with your statement about the principles of movement being the same for karate and aikido. Who says the priciples of movement are universal. Other than getting from point A to point B, there are many ways to do that. But yes, You must MOVE (not yelling, just stressing the point). If you say HBO's Real Sports recently you may have seen the young man who was born without any limbs. He is top notch HS wrestler and gets around just as well as anyone with two legs. The point is he made it work for him. It meaning what he had to work with.

Back to karate and aikido movement. While there is some circular movement in Okinawan based karate (mainly Naha Te systems), karate is basically linear. You use the hips and feet in very different ways than aikido. This is a very basic fact. This is not a mystery.

Paul, you know I anxiously await your reply!!!
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:15 AM   #64
paw
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Quote:
Who says the priciples of movement are universal.
Well, I did, for starters. Didn't you read my posts?
Quote:
Other than getting from point A to point B, there are many ways to do that.
I agree. And all of them are based on how joints articulate, muscle contraction, etc... at least for healthy people on planet earth.
Quote:
If you say HBO's Real Sports recently you may have seen the young man who was born without any limbs. He is top notch HS wrestler and gets around just as well as anyone with two legs. The point is he made it work for him. It meaning what he had to work with.
Yes. He moves in accordance to the joint articulation, muscle contraction, and physics, just like anyone else would if you removed their limbs.

Quote:
While there is some circular movement in Okinawan based karate (mainly Naha Te systems), karate is basically linear. You use the hips and feet in very different ways than aikido. This is a very basic fact. This is not a mystery.
And doesn't disprove my point. People are constrained in their movements by physics. They can move in different ways, all of which are governed by physics. Given a specific task, there are "better" ways of performing them given physical limitations and physics. Or is it coincidence that in "freesytle" swimming events, where any stroke may be used, all competitors swim using the crawl?

Regards,

Paul

Last edited by paw : 01-30-2004 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:40 AM   #65
AsimHanif
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That's all fine Paul, but the point was...

aikido and boxing have similar body mechanics as opposed to karate.

Yes we all have to use muscles to move -that's a universal truth - but that was not the point.
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:46 AM   #66
happysod
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Ron, thanks, you caught me in a over-simplification of the true brutality, sorry beauty of karate. Damn your eyes for being a pernicious reader.

Asim, sorry, but that was Paul's point in his post, that's why I objected.. Pick on his "common language" post, that has the bits you want where I think what you're referring to is styles of movement rather than body mechanics.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:04 AM   #67
AsimHanif
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Qoute from James Giles:

Yes Chris, I can understand your point of view. But I am a little leary when someone wants to improve on something.

For example, when people tried to make improvements to America's social structure, the results were an explosive crime rate and a public school system that turns out illiterates at the speed of light. When people tried to improve on the English language, Ebonics was born. But many people who weren't around when conditions were indeed better, see these "progressive" changes as improvements.

Uh James, I wanted to address this although this probably should go in the thread on "How not to push out potential students with Limbaughesque' remarks"

First, there's nothing wrong with improvements. Much has to do with who's making the improvements. We still have a lot of separate and unequal around the world.

Secondly, I hesitate to even address your comment on how Ebonics was "born" but it had nothing to do with improving English.

Thirdly, my mother grew up in good 'ole Tuskegee Alabama during the 40's, 50's, and 60's. When exactly were those days when conditions were better?
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:24 AM   #68
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Paul's post was in response to my comment that boxing and aikido share similar principles of movement. To which he replied how physics govern universal principles of movement (which I of course acknowledge).

My point was more to how different arts use gravity not that it is or isn't used. That would be ridiculous (although at times I can be ridiculous:-).

In trying to keep it simple though - linear as opposed to circular fashion.

Although Ian I'm not sure what the difference is in "styles of movement rather that body mechanics". Don't they go hand in hand? I'm trying to sort that one out.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:56 AM   #69
happysod
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Asim, I wouldn't be confused, it's no doubt my own misapplication of words (very common - I are an engineer by training).

For me, body mechanics would imply the way the body can and can't move based upon joints, skeleton, muscle groups etc i.e. relating the actual nuts and bolts of a body to the range of activities it can accomplish. Style would be which of the various movements within that range which you use/train for in response to various stimuli.
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Old 01-30-2004, 11:12 AM   #70
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Gotcha - but wouldn't your body mechanics facilitate or govern your "style".

I believe body mechanics can be developed to some extent, although in cases there may be physical limitations.

Ex. I train my body to do irimi by moving my hips horizontally towards uke as opposed to training my body to do irimi by moving my hips down and then up towards uke.

Or are you saying that you are born with your body mechanics and you stylisticall work with that? Because don't we stretch, bend, contract, etc to effect our body range (mechanics)? Some Ki Society people even use music (but that's another thread:-)
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Old 01-30-2004, 12:15 PM   #71
paw
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Quote:
Gotcha - but wouldn't your body mechanics facilitate or govern your "style".
Wouldn't your "style" determine your body mechanics?

Forced to answer, I would say, it's a bit of both. To the best of my understanding, a "style" is composed of a doctrine ---- a set of core beliefs that one holds to be true. Based on this doctrine, a strategy is formed. Based on the strategy, techniques are selected.

To be extremely simplistic, let me make an example using bjj. (Again, this is extremely simplistic and for illustration only)

Doctrine: Fights end up on the ground

Strategy: Master groundwork, specifically, attacking from dominate positions on the ground.

Technique: The rear naked choke once someone's back is captured.

See what fun this is?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-30-2004, 02:12 PM   #72
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OK I'll play..

This could be a chicken/egg thing.

Yes it could be said that my beliefs dictate my style but it could also be said that because of my limited abilities I choose style X because it fits my body. Or what usually happens...

"After years of fumbling around I started doing A because I saw Bruce Lee and I'm really talented and gifted. I kick high, have an excellent jump spinning back kick, and fast hands. But after years of getting beat up and losing brain cells I think I better start doing Z because my body tells me so".
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Old 01-31-2004, 08:42 AM   #73
Chad Sloman
 
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back to the subject

I believe that aikido has martial effectiveness. As Asim has said "aikido is what you make it". You will only be as good as you train. So maybe someone who has shortcomings when it comes to martial effectiveness needs to look at themselves and give more of an earnest effort.

But really.... Are we training in aikido solely to learn to defend ourselves? If you want to learn to defend yourself effectively, go to the pawn shop and buy a 9mm and go to the practice range. Training in budo for me is about the whole package: spiritual sharpening, stress relief, intellectual satiation, mental acuity, physical fitness, AND self-defence. I think in the overly-litigious society that we live in, it can be very effective to overcome an adversary without injury, leaving marks, etc....

I also think that when new people see aikido and think that it is just passive, that they are really off base. The longer I've been training, the more I come to find more and more subtle secrets. We attack and attack and attack even though it may not look like it. When we think that we are blocking or deflecting, we are actually attacking. We attack the mune tsuki, we attack the shomen uchi, we attack the hara of our partner.

As I simultaneously train in karate and aikido, aikido kihon waza keep appearing in my karate sparring technique. IMHO, aikido prepares someone way more for self-defence than karate does. BJJ is great, but the reason that it works so well in MMA competitions is because the fighters are not trying to kill each other. Aikido is a life and death art that requires real martial/fatal intent from the attacker. I think this is why aikido will never work in one on one fighting competitions.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 01-31-2004, 10:01 AM   #74
Morpheus
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Re: back to the subject

Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
.... Are we training in aikido solely to learn to defend ourselves? If you want to learn to defend yourself effectively, go to the pawn shop and buy a 9mm and go to the practice range....
I wish people would stop saying this. Just getting a gun and becoming proficient at hitting a paper target does not constitute being able to defend yourself. It just means that you can hit a paper target at distance.

What happens when the attacker is within arms reach and they are able to take the gun away?

I agreed with the rest of what you had to say on this matter, but this comment is made FAR too much by people on this and other forums.

Qasim

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"If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. - Miyamoto Musashi - 1584 - 1645
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Old 01-31-2004, 11:42 AM   #75
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I may be off (again) but I took Chads point to mean that if people want a solely physical, agressive self defense solution, there are surely quicker methods to pursue that are not necessarily a Tao (although they need not be).

Aikido is meant to be a Budo - a martial art path to develop the whole Self.

But - I could be wrong.
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