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Old 02-09-2004, 12:11 PM   #26
Rachael
 
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Dojo: Hallamshire, Sheffield
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I think that by standing by and watching you demonstrated the principles of Aikido effectivelt, Wynand.

There's a time and a place for fighting and I think you chose the correct road by NOT intervening, but by being ready to if needed.

I know that getting a chance to try out Aikido in a 'real' situation would have been a good experience for you (it's always a good feeling to find out that something you do actually works and I'm not just talking about martial arts) but it's better that you are alive and able to continue training, rather than jumping into a situation in which you could have been injured or,even worse, killed.

Shodan, Shotokan karate & 6th kyu Aikido

"The brave do not live forever, but the timid do not live at all."
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Old 02-09-2004, 03:04 PM   #27
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote:
I've never learned a technique to use against a person who is attacking someone else. If you want to learn how to do that, take a course in bodyguarding.
Ah! Still another niche for a creative aikido dojo. I've seen Systema videos where they do this. Also, Black Belt Magazine has an offshoot publication devoted to women's self defense and they've had articles about how to fend off an attack while carrying a baby, e.g.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 02-09-2004, 03:17 PM   #28
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
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Re: Dissapointed in myself.

[quote="Wynand van Dyk (drDalek)"]I was

I am dissapointed that I did not rush in and restrain captain tire-iron right then and there and instead decided to wait and see if any blows get traded."

First let me ask this. When was the last time any of you were in a street fight? If you were could you have avoided it?

If you have never been in a street fight you should look at video footage of gang fights, fighting at soccer game riots and street fights between two or more people. There is video available, just last night I watched an hour of it on some "real" TV program. It confirmed my earlier evaluations and statements in other threads. These people are for the most part unskilled and clumsily. If you have trained for a good while and can keep you head you should be able to handle yourself OK. These people are not Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris,. If they had the discipline to train correctly they would not be street fighting in the first place.

Also with today's technology it would need to be an extreme situation for me to get physically involved. To call to 911 I have just to put my hand in my pocket and pull out my cell phone. If you have people depending on you at home, people you love and people that love you then be very cautious about getting into a situation you can avoid. Even a clumsy blow to the right place can kill easily. We have teens here in Florida convicted of manslaughter after being involved in a school yard fight. Had they known how easy it can be to take a life I think they may have reconsidered fighting."

Say you get into a fight in a public place, most likely you will both go to jail until the law can sort it out. How will for family, friends and employer view that? What if you kill or get killed? It is easy enough to do. Who takes care of you family now?

If you want to fight go to war. If you want to almost fight go to a judo or karate school and ask nicely so spar with someone of your rank. Otherwise use your training to make yourself a better person, not necessarily a tougher one. But if you are a young guy full of piss and vinegar like most of us were you probably think this post is bullshit anyway.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

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https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 02-09-2004, 09:06 PM   #29
Bronson
 
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Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
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Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote:
do you somehow blend with the energy directed at the third party?
Yup, pretty much. The tai sabaki and kuzushi may end up being a little different, but the basic kernel of the technique is the same.

Bronson

p.s. We also do "American suwariwaza & hanmi handachi" where you do techniques from a chair

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-09-2004, 09:18 PM   #30
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Black Belt Magazine has an offshoot publication devoted to women's self defense and they've had articles about how to fend off an attack while carrying a baby, e.g.
Man, my dojo must be a big bunch of freaks I had to do the baby thing on my nidan pre-test.

Bronson

p.s. We are sometimes jokingly/lovingly called the "Death Dojo" by our organizations Kancho. A title that most of us feel is completely unwarranted...but we like it anyway

p.p.s. Agree completely with what Dennis said. Wish I could have said it that well.

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-09-2004, 09:57 PM   #31
Jesse Lee
Dojo: Tenzan Aikido, formerly named Seattle Aikikai
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Yeah awesome post Dennis, even though my glass of piss and vinegar is still half full

, can't find m s
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Old 02-10-2004, 04:46 PM   #32
Dan Rubin
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Bronson, I find very interesting the idea of blending with energy directed at someone else. I think that's pretty neat. I can't even blend with energy directed at me.

I contributed to this thread because, in Wynand's post, he did not express disappointment because he failed, as a martial artist, to take action. He expressed disappointment because he missed the opportunity to "finally know whether my aikido works for real or not."

I agree with the other posters who have reassured Wynand that his hesitation was wise, and that to enter such a situation, in order to test his aikido, would have been foolhardy. I wanted to add my thought that, had Wynand entered the fray, he might not have had the opportunity to test his aikido, anyway. Surely, he would not have limited himself to techniques that he practices in the dojo. He might have tested his bravery, his awareness, his balance, etc., qualities found in many martial arts. But, having survived or even triumphed, he still might not know whether his aikido works for real or not.

This thought is related to my increasing difficulty, over the past year or so, in defining just what is or is not aikido, to the point that I've pretty much decided that I have no idea what aikido is. But that's another subject, for other threads.

Dan
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Old 02-10-2004, 09:16 PM   #33
Ian Williams
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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I might be terribly naive.. no - scrap that! I *AM* terribly naive, but surely *NOT* fighting is the single best way of proving your Aikido does work?

If you've initiated a fight, doesn't that show that you've already failed?

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 02-10-2004, 10:19 PM   #34
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Bronson Diffin (Bronson) wrote:
Man, my dojo must be a big bunch of freaks I had to do the baby thing on my nidan pre-test.
Do the techniques vary depending on whether its your baby or not?


Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:47 PM   #35
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Do the techniques vary depending on whether its your baby or not?
Possibly. As I don't, and never will, have children or as I like to call them Shrieking Naked Yard Apes My techniques in that particular portion may have left a little to be desired. Especially the one where I threw the baby at the attacker

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-12-2004, 01:31 AM   #36
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Regardless of how much piss and vinegar one has on board, Dennis Hooker is correct in my opinion. After spending 30 years on the street I've formed the conclusion that intervening in some knucklehead's threatening behavior is foolish for those who aren't paid to do it. Most guys mouthing off to one another are hoping for an excuse not to fight and looking for a face-saving out. Once things start to escalate they seem to act like trapped animals and do really stupid things to one another. Today with the proliferation of firearms on the street, it becomes even more dangerous. As a general statement I think it wise to avoid trying to intervene between two individuals as described. As Mr. Hooker said (at least in spirit)his cell phone is his most effective weapon in those situations. It might be an entirely different situation if it were some innocent person being attacked or victimized.

I've been in about a gazillion of those events over the years and it usually hurt to win. One win resulted in me wearing a cast for six weeks and almost cost me my career. If you really, really want to have fun, intercede between husband and wife! You just don't know how to enjoy life until you try to subdue Hubby while his wife is attacking you from behind.

Save the rescues for the weak and victimized. Let the knuckleheads prove natural selection until the cops arrive.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:05 AM   #37
vanstretch
Dojo: Kyushinkan
Location: Roswell,GA
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Hi all, cop chiming in here guys!, I am in absolute agreement with Hooker Sensei, and most responses to the original post seem very common-sensical and rational. Trying to be a hero is the ego kicking in at the wrong time and can cost one dearly. A cell phone can be used tactically to report crime but for an accurate and quick police response,you have to know where you are. Lets say its night and there are no visible street signs. always know which way is north if you can. a good cop ,a good soldier knows his surroundings and always keeps his bearings. easier said than done yes, yet another skill to practice and hone-your ability to give your exact location. lost seconds to a 911 dispatcher can and have cost lives due to some of the above mentioned. try this right now=point north.(no, not up either!) time how quick that took. take care, keep rollin. DJ.
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:47 PM   #38
alecellis
Location: Australia
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I think when you first start learning a Martial Art, also depends on the age, you tend to get a feeling of invulnerability building inside you. This shows in your character, you get stronger and people feel it. Some people challenge it and others just acquire a growing respect for you, sub-conciously usually, not many people would admit it.

You tend not to come across situations such as Wynands, it just works out that way, to many people I know's "dissapointment". I know a few that would just pile on in. I find that these types dont do Aikido very long.

A (now) good friend who was once not such a good friend, used to go to Disco's looking for people to pick on him, then he would decimate them with a form of Karate (cant remember the style, very ruthless kick boxing style), and then restrain them with Aikido moves. He learnt a lot, ok... mostly to get a bad reputation for himself.

Our teacher enrolled us in competitions together, doing Tomiki Aikido, a little more aggressive. This helped us to work out some problems. It took me 4 years to click into 'auto pilot', ie defending by aggression rather than regression (forward rather than backward), after that everything became great fun, and we made our own moves.

Anyway... back to the plot... we were taught at the very beginning that Aikido was for defence, of oneself. Then later you are taught that the open hands can close and should!! into Aikijitsu, a very nasty "mame and kill" style... no nonsense. I never actually got there in total, just touched upon it, as the Tomiki style promotes.

I think you were CORRECT to hold back, for many reasons. To assertain the field, who was actually the aggressor, who was correct, who is the strongest, "is there a gun?" (no martial art can stop a bullet, maybe 10 ninjas back to back? <grin>).

Aikido I beleive was a a warriors style, and as such, no warrior is going to just rush in without checking out the filed of play.

You did right by default I beleive, and Aikido is primarily a "self" preservation art.

If you want to get involved, take 5, check out the scene first, then come in with strength!!
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