Man and Woman, Push Hands

Joseph Arriola wrote: Certainly, I would like to see your version of push hands. I would like to see any of your applications in martial arts. Perhaps, some old sparring footage. I have only seen your "body alignment" tapes. I would value the comparison and contrast.

Joseph, if you have a topic that you want to talk about publicly, please feel free to do so. If you know the topic very well, I would assume you can talk about it and explain the nuances, answer questions, and so forth. I can't see any valid or respectable reason to attempt to change a topic into personal comparisons of videos... that sounds too much like some sort of pecking-order diversion from the topic at hand. Besides, you personally have already declared that you are a master-level and I am but an intermediate-level and you were able to do sight unseen, so we really don't need any videos, do we? Thank you for the promotion, BTW.... I tend to think that I am just a beginner.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Don't be so modest. I've seen the tapes you have promoted for your seminars. I'm just curious as to their utility.

Can I use your technique to fight, for health. What reason and purpose? You seem to purport an understanding of Qi/Ki. And of course the purpose of this thread was to talk about the development and use of Qi.

As such, I would love to hear your opinions and or results. How has your practice brought you prosperity? How have you been able to defend yourself on the street? How have your seminars benefited the community?

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph Arriola wrote: Don't be so modest. I've seen the tapes you have promoted for your seminars. I'm just curious as to their utility. Can I use your technique to fight, for health. What reason and purpose? You seem to purport an understanding of Qi/Ki. And of course the purpose of this thread was to talk about the development and use of Qi. As such, I would love to hear your opinions and or results. How has your practice brought you prosperity? How have you been able to defend yourself on the street? How have your seminars benefited the community?

Sorry, Joseph... as I indicated, I'm not particularly interested in making this thread a discussion about me or in making it a comparison of you and me. Besides, since you are already a maestro of Tai Chi, you are just teasing me and you understand full well the utility of what is on my tapes, right?

Let me go back to something you said for a moment, because I disagree:

"It's easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy."

I understand that it's easy to use definitions, philosophy, etc., very easily as scattered buzzwords to impress the ignorant. Often the person trying to impress people is ignorant of how little he knows, when he attempts to impress others. And besides, as we always used to say... "but can he fight?".

However, over the long years I began to learn that some of my teachers weren't just overly into theory and trying to satisfy some pedantic urge they had in them; they were trying to explain things. At first, I saw no reason for the explanations. They were at best just fine points that didn't appear to have much utility. But as I've progressed, I've found that I can't go anywhere without understanding those finer points.

It's like the way you disconnected in push hands. In the past, I would have seen no reason why someone *MUST* stay connected, particularly with a beginner; but I do now. In the past, I saw no real reason for the emphasis on certain positions, ways of holding the body, ways of moving (they are giveaways to what someone knows), and so on. So I would offer my agreement that for anyone it easy to quote definitions, history and philosophy, but it is very hard to quote definitions, history, and philosophy if someone doesn't really understand them. They simply give away, by the way they explain things, how much they don't know. So in that sense, I am always happy to listen to peoples' explanations... any way you cut it, I learn something about either them or the subject at hand.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Joseph Arriola wrote: <snip> As such, I would love to hear your opinions and or results. How has your practice brought you prosperity? How have you been able to defend yourself on the street? How have your seminars benefited the community? Sincerely Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph,
much respect for putting your vids up there, and I know some mutual people that have touched hands with both you and Mike.

That being said, I can say Mike definitely knows what he's talking about with regards to this subject, and if you continue to switch the subject like this, instead of talking about the practical mechanics behind the Qi/Jin aspects you're going to do yourself a disservice.

More and more people out there are getting exposed to it, and I guarantee that the "philosophical" angle on Qi/Jin won't fly too well with them.

Body skills and fighting are two separate things. No one's saying you can't fight. But if you can't explain the practical aspects behind the physical skills of Qi/Jin, I think you'll find yourself losing the trust of a lot of people that have had hands on time with peeps that have actual internal skill (and that are willing to teach)

Let's get the conversation back on track about the practical physical elements behind Qi/Jin skills

M2C, fwiw

Incidentally, since my old tapes (they were put out in the mid 1990's and I quit selling them when I didn't feel like video was doing a good job because of the lack of "feel") have come up, let me use them to explain where I come from.

Where I come from, I'm used to going into schools, tournaments, demonstrations, etc., in the company of various martial artists who are big names in mainland China. I have spent a lot of time with some of these people and have been taught by a number of them. When, for instance, there is a demonstration at some large national tournament and "masters" from many styles, many countries, mainland China, Japan, etc., perform (this is also true of when we wind up watching videotapes together at home), there is always a clinical evaluation of someone's skills, but all the evaluations have to do with someone's "qi" and his power first, then his expertise in the subject art that is being performed.

So looking at someone's movements, way of generating power, postures, etc., that support those basics, and so on... all of that is just a common first step that *everyone with even moderate skills* does, in the world I'm talking about.

So back to the tapes I did. Anyone I know and respect with even moderate skills would probably look at those tapes for about 2 minutes and say something like, "Oh... you're trying to show people how to use basic jin". Then they'd lose interest, because it's such an obvious topic.

So think about the above and the world I'm used to travelling in. When I read various comments about those tapes, I already know what real experts will say. They'll just shrug because they already know the topic and it's not even a debate point. It's the way things are. I just shrug, too. They were no big deal.

But is that stuff "useful"? My goodness!

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: It's like the way you disconnected in push hands. In the past, I would have seen no reason why someone *MUST* stay connected, particularly with a beginner; but I do now.

I myself am of the opinion that you judge an art or teacher by the fundamental logic of martial strategy, not that you take martial strategy to be whatever a specific teacher or art says. Of course, that requires having some understanding of that logic oneself. Although I'm far from an expert in push-hands, the logic of the exercise seems clear enough to me that I would expect that if one were to break connection as is done in this video when were working with someone who actually knew how to do push-hands, it would result in the person breaking connection immediately getting pushed. While one can get away with doing this to a beginner who does not understand this logic and thus does not know what do when her partner breaks connection, I would say that doing so teaches exactly the wrong lesson.

Joseph Arriola wrote: Greetings Chris, Given the fact that my students were small guys they were in awe of the big big guys you hire for your security services corporation.

Joseph,

I think your guys ended up among a team of recently returning Marines. They handled themselves with professional aplomb.

AikiJen also came up for a bit of training. As it happened, it was during shift change and she found herself in the midst of a hallway full of Macho. She used an expertly-crafted Yin form of Aiki strategy and made Teddy Bears of the bunch.

I am feeling your pain and respect your patience with the cynics on this site. A couple of months ago, I layed out a few "pearls". Hidden in plain sight, I guess they must have been..... Or perhaps egos interfered with the possibility that a free "tip of the iceberg pearl" is a pearl nonetheless and should be received with grace and professional appreciation. As for me, no more public shows. The cynics were a weariness of spirit.

Tuturuhan,

Just out of interest. Would you be willing to elaborate on the following...

1. When I trained with the group, I really liked your constant interchange between stickiness and percussion while circle walking; i.e. the drills you used for lack of better terms were: legs only - evade, attach/parry/stick (with the knees) and strike (any portion of your leg with internal power) against specific nerve points or blood vessels on the opponent's torso was great practice. Same with the arms only drill. Same with the arms and legs drill. Same with the weapon-in-hand and legs drill.

Once we moved to the heavy club, there was less opportunity to stick with the weapon hand. How quickly are your students learning to stick with the support hand while weilding heavy instruments with the weapon hand? This challenge seems similar to teaching Aikido yudansha to throw two ukes with separate hands in different directions.

2. Your "one hand strikes 5 times in one second on 5 separate points" technique had wonderful accuracy, percussive power and stickiness. Same with your "one hand brfeaks a joing five times in one second" technique. Is there an exercise that can enhance the training of such a technique? It appears that there is a stickiness and release and re-stickiness that you were able to accomplish within a tenth of a second.

I would love to hear your response on or off line.

Did something go wrong with the private mail function? Or is there some sort of private show going on that wasn't mentioned in the "push hands" part of the thread-title?

Just Curious.

Mike Sigman

Hey Chris,

Well, you and I are on the same track. It is not about "what we know". It is about what we are uncovering.

It is about honing our skills by using more of our "mind extention" than our body extension.

In the exchange of your videos, I have seen the following: "blend, grasp and manipulation". In other words, when you first touch your uke you "intersect" to his body. This is the blend. Next, you grasp,,,not necessarilly with your hand but with the "connectedness" of your body. Because your opponent is moving there must be "contiuous realignment". In other words you must "stick" to him.

But, once you "manipulate" you are taking action. You break the "connection". You throw him to the ground. If you hold on to him he with take you to the ground. As such, when you break connection you must "cut him off at the knees, the neck, the hand etc".

The push hands teaches the "give and take"(striking and absorbing), the development of sensitivity, body architecture, and Qi emission and absorbtion.

There are a series of levels and layers within layers. The beginner is oblivious. The intermediate is blinded by "what he thinks he knows". The adept finds "utility" for his knowledge. It is not enough to know...you must do.

Best,
Joe

Joseph Arriola wrote: Hey Chris, Well, you and I are on the same track.

I absolutely agree! And best of luck wherever it is that you're going!

Regards,

Mike "Anything is Taichi or Aikido" Sigman

Mike,

Well, the undercurrent is a good step. Go deeper into the darkness and you will find greater layers. Best to you...

Push on...stay connected. But, know how to strike and manipulate.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

tuturuhan,

You read both my movement and intent well. It has been a major project of mine for several years to be able to topple uke with body positioning, stickiness and throwing points without the use of arms or hands.

I made excellent headway after I left San Francisco. I spent two weeks in San Diego and trained with my Koryu Headmaster. The improvement was astounding. Now back to practice. Push hands without arms or hands....

By the way, remember the video of the guy that bounced uke into the air through his grasp and sucked him in through the grasp. I showed it to Clodig. He gave me some simple pointers. Getting decent at it already. But it will take some time to make the movement subtle.

Very nice.

Very entertaining.

As for the video : what is the girl supposed to be doing apart from trying to put her hands on the tense guy's arms?