Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-14-2004, 12:30 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,320
Offline
Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

AikiWeb Poll for the week of November 14, 2004:

Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Nage
  • Uke
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 04:22 AM   #2
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Can I say it depends upon the relative abilities of the uke and nage concerned?

Ruth
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 07:52 AM   #3
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

I don't think this question is answerable. It reminds me of "Who determines what opening is played in a chess game--White or Black?"

Across a big enough skill difference the answer always seems to be "The more skilled person controls the outcome." If I am training with a fourth dan, my partner can determine how the throw works out (or doesn't) no matter whether I'm uke or nage.

Between people on my level...I don't think either participant necessarily controls the outcome. Partner zigs, I zag, something emerges from that interaction. Sometimes it's recognizably more one person's intention than the other's--hopefully that person is nage more often than not--but frequently it's all interaction.

Mary Kaye
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 10:22 AM   #4
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

I agree. It is unanswerable. Nage wants it in his favor, likewise, Uke wants it in her favor. Winning means someone loses. I'd like to think that there is a way for both to win, middle of the road resolution.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 01:46 PM   #5
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

IMHO, like most things in life, the outcome is best determined by the intent and intensity of the training and the willingness to do whatever it takes.

Or is this a Zen Koan? KWATZ!

Or, Kamisama does.

Or, actually, in class, Sensei does by telling us what to practice.

Or, none of the above.

Or, all of the above including none of the above.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 05:42 PM   #6
Robert Jackson
Dojo: seishinkan
Location: Texas City.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 133
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

I agree it's an unanswerable question. In a perfect world it would a balance between both uke and nage... both blending... balance a nice thing... In a real situation I think it's more of responibilty of the nage to make the throw work... if it one doesn't work then you must do something else.... in turn hanka or oyo waza... but in this case the out is still not what either the nage or uke were going for...
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 10:35 PM   #7
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,013
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

I don't think it is un-answerable. I started Aikido in the UK and was trained to believe uke falls where uke wants to go - in the direction of their attack etc. But in Japan, my Sensei would make everyone fall exactly where he wanted them to fall, thus he could make it look like even a beginner was a good uke - he actually forced his beginners to go where he wanted them to. Sure it hurt a bit, but uke soon learns where to go! I have seen several Sensei do this and have now changed my outlook - I think both perspectives are OK. Accordingly, you have choice - you can let uke fall where they will (uke decides, kind of), or, you can make them go where you want them to go (tori decides). Thus, in training, you shouldn't have one without the other - both are options.

For example, on the top of a flat-roofed building, knife-weilding madman rushes, you duck, over he goes - it was uke's choice. Same situation but it's your brother, you do irimi-iriminage and send him back onto the concrete - it was your choice.

And if both options are available, then mixing them together mid-technique is possible - inevitable even.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 10:43 PM   #8
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Quote:
AikiWeb System wrote:
Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?
Answer: Tori/Nage. The particular technique or variation used may result from some movement/reaction done by Uke, giving Uke an aspect in determining what technique may manifest itself, but by the time the technique is manifested the Tori is supposed to be in total control of Uke and as a result determines the final outcome of the technique.

Just my take.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2004, 10:56 PM   #9
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

I disagree...the question is answerable and shouldn't be ambiguous.

Shite makes the choices based upon the balance and timing of shite and uke together. Yes...it takes two people to make a technique, but that technique is guided and controlled by shite (or should be) right from the beginning.

Mary's point about the more experienced person controlling the outcome is very valid. But in this case my argument would be that even if they are in the uke's role while controlling the outcome they are actually doing the technique...therefore being shite. It's just that their choice is to fall or to be pinned or whatever.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 12:22 AM   #10
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

The answer is uke! Why? Because the uke's response will dictate the outcome. If the uke or attacker, receives the technique, relaxes, and "gives it up", then the result will be a nice roll, and easy breakfall, or a "calm" meeting with the mat, which ends in a pin. But if not, then the results will not be nice. 9 weeks ago, I suffered a partially torn ligament in my right elbow. The nage was very apologetic and upset that I got hurt. But, I had to be honest and tell him that it was really my fault. Who was responsible for the outcome? The uke! Why? Because we were doing Shihonage, I wasn't moving, was very flat-footed, and my arm wasn't even tense to signal that I might not be ready. I was in a "lull." When the nage started to do the technique, I suddenly realized I wasn't keeping up and that I was flat-footed (something my Sensei had warned me about before). I tried to catch up by "leaping" at the last second, but he had already turned his hip and started the cut. Nevertheless, there was a loud "pop" and now I'm in therapy. No matter what the technique, if the uke doesn't do what they are suppose to do, then the outcome won't be good.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 07:49 AM   #11
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Nage blends with uke, not the other way around, so surely uke determines the outcome?! (By outcome I mean the type of response rather than success).

I think with BEGINNERS the more skilled person determines the outcome, whilst with advanced practitioners uke determines the type of response.

I remember I was having problems with students 'jumping' when I was tryng to do a technique on them and a senior instructor told me something very useful - you just have to work with what they give you. Therefore, if people jump now I let them, and don't try to physically stop them of force them down harder.

Based on his quotes I would say Ueshiba didn't believe that he himself decided the outcome of the altercation:

"Whenever I am attacked, I have no attachment to life or death. I leave everything as it is to the spirit of the universe. Be apart from attachment to life and death and have a mind that leaves everything to that spirit, not only when you are being attacked but also in your daily lives."

Can we really be like that if we are 'determining' the outcome?

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 09:55 AM   #12
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
Location: Houston,Tx
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

I think the outcome is determined by the nage.

If nage is skilled, he surely determines how & where & why, etc... If uke resists, he may go to something else in the aikido aresenal, but it is nage who determines.

If the nage is not skilled, the determination is still nage's. Uke may resist or help nage finish the technique but it is nage's will or fault that the technique ended up where it did. In other words, a non skilled nage may determine to abandon the technique early or to abandon technique altogether. His next determination should be to find out how to make technique work more effectively.

Uke is a wiling partner who really should determine nothing. Uke should go wherever nage takes him/her. Uke may offer resistance to help nage find out something about himself, but the determination of the technique should always be nage.

At least that is what I think.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 02:47 PM   #13
jgros
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 21
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

unanswerable. definately.

Becuase the uke/nage may be more skilled than the other? sure. why not. ill accept that.

But I see it this way. If uke doesnt attack then the technique isnt done. Therefore he controls the technique. HOWEVER. If we are classiflying the uke by his "lethal intent" versus whether he actually attacks.....Then the nage could attack the uke because he knows that he must strike before stricken first. And then the uke responds, nage then responds and throws the uke.

So if you are saying that definately the uke will attack, or definately the nage will wait until attacked....the ill say that it boils down to the skill (and how nice each person is ) of each party involved.

Either way, its still definately unanswerable!

jgros
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 03:31 PM   #14
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

this is in context right now in my class, and my current understanding is

Uke: a highly skilled uke can reverse any technique as soon as Nage attempts it, and Nage can reverse the reversal , but at that point Nage is Uke since uke receives.., and past that point its back to Nage, since Nage is putting out..

when can we dispense with Uke/Nage?

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 10:15 PM   #15
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

It's interesting that there seem to be many different definitions of what "outcome" means.

1. Which technique is done (this was what I thought when reading the poll question)
2. Whether uke gets hurt or not
3. Where uke falls
4. Shite/Nage successful at throwing/controlling uke
5. What the initial response is to uke (and whether technique necessary or not) based on attack

I'm not sure if that accurately sums up everything that has been said, but it is certainly interesting that the same word means so many different things to different people.

After looking over the list I still think that it is shite that is in control of the situation and determines the outcome.

1. Shite does the technique shite feels is right. The exact same attack probably will produce a different final technique from different shite's because different people are better at different techniques
2. Shite should be responsible for feel how close uke is to be getting hurt and respond accordingly. I know that some dojos fail someone without a question if any uke are hurt during a test.
3. Techniques are about guiding uke to where you want to put them. Even if that place is the same place they would fall if you just ducked...you chose to put them there (or allow them to go there) and not someplace else
4. Whoever controls the technique becomes, by defination, I think, Shite. So whomever throws/controls the other is shite and sets the outcome.
5. If shite chooses not to block the attack...they'll get hit in the head. Their choice. If they block and move the attack, they move with what is natural to them. Two people may respond different to the exact same attack.

Interesting poll. But after thinking it over again, I don't think it should be so ambiguous. Talk of blending and being the center of the universe as a cohensive whole of two Aikidoka is all great, but in the end something happens based on your experience, technique and the person who determines what that outcome is is the person who is, ultimately, in control of the technique and by definition gets the title of shite (or nage...if you will).

It is a bit of a chicken and the egg argument, but even that one should be unambiguous...with a little thought

Just my humble opinion,

--Michael

-

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2004, 11:53 PM   #16
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Sensei does by telling us what to practice.
This was my gut response. I thought about this for a week, and I found I couldn't answer the survey.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2004, 01:56 AM   #17
James Giles
Dojo: North Florida Aikikai
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 53
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote:
this is in context right now in my class, and my current understanding is

Uke: a highly skilled uke can reverse any technique as soon as Nage attempts it, and Nage can reverse the reversal , but at that point Nage is Uke since uke receives.., and past that point its back to Nage, since Nage is putting out..

when can we dispense with Uke/Nage?
I agree with this. It really boils down to how do you define uke or how do you define nage. I mean, when "uke" attacks, he/she has every intention of being a "nage" him/her self. He/she wants to make an uke out of the nage.

And then you have the reversals that can happen when one partner uses too much strength etc., so the roles of uke/nage are being switched around during these episodes.

I suppose whomever lands on the mat is really the uke, whether he/she started out that way or not, and I agree with a previous poster that uke (the one that hits the mat), is the one that resolves the conflict through his ukemi; by escaping unharmed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2004, 03:56 PM   #18
Lachlan Kadick
 
Lachlan Kadick's Avatar
Dojo: Oswego Aikido Club
Location: Syracuse, NY
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

while Uke does require ability, it ultimately should be Nage that determines that outcome of the technique, since Nage is the thrower. The nage must execute the technique, even with the uke's challenging movement.

Think big, Live humbly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2004, 08:15 AM   #19
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Quote:
Joe Cavazos wrote:
...Uke should go wherever nage takes him/her...
I think there is a big difference between doing aikido and learning to do techniques. I think what is expressed by many is the compliance of uke in learning to do a technique. Sensei tells nage what will be done and nage and uke do it. However in my mind this is only the first stage of aikido. Effective aikido is learnt when nage blends and is responsive to uke's movement. i.e. there is a freestyle situation and uke attacks, and nage has to respond appropriately and with blending. This is more realistic - an attacker will NOT go where you lead them in a real situation; nage has to fit in with uke in these cases.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2004, 01:11 PM   #20
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
Location: Houston,Tx
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 151
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Ian Wrote:
Quote:
Effective aikido is learnt when nage blends and is responsive to uke's movement
Exactly: Nage determines the outcome! This is exactly what I was trying to say in the context of the question.

Thanks
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2004, 08:07 AM   #21
rogerw
 
rogerw's Avatar
Dojo: www.Aikidojo.ca
Location: Montreal
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 11
Canada
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Uke is the one that decide if there is a technique; does he or doesn't he attack?
At the moment uke takes the decision to attack, nage is the one who determines the outcoming of the attack; the fight is already over.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2004, 09:38 AM   #22
roninja
 
roninja's Avatar
Dojo: UCO Budo Society/ Eye of the Storm
Location: oklahoma
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 15
United_States
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

done properly uke gives the input where as nage decides where to take it or what to do with it, ultimately deciding the outcome. unless you get into a situation where uke either takes the falls or resists in which case uke determined whether or not he or she would be injured
but then again, I'm an idiot when it comes to aikido and the only thing that determines the outcome of my techniques is kata

僕わ Joseph Dunkin
"Compassion is pure kindness
Wisdom is knowing the truth of dependent origin"
- Ven. Hsing Yun
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2004, 12:59 PM   #23
Amendes
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 130
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

In a quick randori situation there ideally is no determination. At lest for me; because I can't think fast enough, just react. I find I do certain techniques more often, like shihonage. Not because I determine to, but because that is what I have taken favoritism too and had my muscles memorize to do automatically the most. If I try to do something else, and think, I usually lose my ability to do the techniques effectively. So what ever comes out, and where ever it flows.
Sometimes is nikyo, sometimes kaitennage. But when it comes out, it comes the way it flows.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2004, 08:29 AM   #24
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Re: Poll: Who determines the outcome of a technique in aikido?

Uke initates the technique with an attack... A true attack is a continuous attack, (in other words, uke is not just going to stand there and be manhandled),so.... Nage responds to uke and keeps responding to uke, so therefore uke determines the outcome.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Poll: Which art do you think is more physically effective - judo or aikido? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 31 06-05-2005 09:00 AM
Poll: How often do you strongly resist your partner's technique as uke during aikido training? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 18 09-30-2004 03:10 AM
Poll: Do you think koshinage as practiced in aikido is a martially effective technique? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 12 10-01-2002 11:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:19 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate