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Old 11-21-2002, 02:49 PM   #51
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
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Hey Opher

so are you saying that one can be the target of abuse and not realize it; and that a list of criteria to judge that condition may be helpful? Sure, I can see that. It still involves taking responsibility, and not handing it off to someone else.

So are you coming to class tonight so I can abuse you or what?

PS my spell checker insists that your are Gopher, or Opera, so pick one please ;-)
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Old 11-22-2002, 07:12 AM   #52
Paul Schweer
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 43
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Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
It appears to me that mle is the one that has been abused and that although she claims that she now practices another martial art, she continues to harbor resentment against her former instructor and aikido as a whole.

In response, it is her desire to find a way to exact revenge against her former instructor by getting the aikido community to impose a "bill of rights" on him.

She is either very young, very imature, or both.

Nevertheless, her methods seem to quickly be leading her down the road to mental illness.

It may be time for her fully face her personal tragedy and begin to take an new approach to her life before worse disaster strikes.
If you're correct in speculating that Emily is a victim of abuse, I can't imagine how you expect what you've said here to help. If you're not trying to help, what then?

If she is, as you accuse, seeking revenge,
whom do you seek to protect? What threat --
who is threatened when the wounded cry out?

You condemn her methods.
What methods do you recommend?

How many years, how much sweat and blood?
What price have you paid?
What pains? What for?

What now -- that you're strong is a given,
a gift of your teachers, your training --
what now, when the weak
show their neck,
will you do?

Paul Schweer

Last edited by Paul Schweer : 11-22-2002 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 11-22-2002, 07:16 AM   #53
mle
Dojo: The Dojo (www.the-dojo.com
Location: Bavaria
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 75
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Freaky! No axes here... just questions

I will not be responding to individuals who choose to attempt to reduce the argument to an ad hominem level.

Partially out of respect for Jun and because it's a waste of everyone's time.

I am here for an intellectual discussion of the boundaries and possible existence of rights for students in the martial arts.

I deeply appreciate the ideas which have been shared in good faith here.

If the discussion bothers you, you have the "right" to read another thread. If you can disagree with it technically or on a gut level (Justin's reaction was very helpful to me! and very civil ) please let me know why, and what you would rather see. Please read through the entire discussion instead of just responding to the "rights" part. I understand that the term "rights" "ain't right" even to those of pro-American sentiment.

Additionally, if the discussion bothers you, perhaps that's because it should.

No, I don't think a "bill of rights" is the proper term for guidelines for diagnosing and avoiding abuse. I just didn't know what else to call it. "Magna Kata" perhaps? ;-)

Any abuse I have suffered personally has been fairly minor, really, and I am still fond of aikido.

Naturally there are some teachers I like better than others, but increasingly that has more to do with their integrity and how they treat their students. Whether their insides match their outsides.

Erik, your dojo is based out of Hombu. AFAIK there is no room in your organization for any questioning of superiors whatsoever, no matter what they do.

In addition, you practice in Europe, and I don't know about the Netherlands, but in Germany Aikido is rather stringently regulated and subject to organizations.

Additionally, you never answered my question.

Not meant as an accusation unless you take it as such.

I didn't leave aikido because I hated aikido, though plenty have. I had an intriguing opportunity to study with Chuck Gordon and I didn't have time for the other. In my plans for the near future is a visit to the closest aikido dojo to play and get acquainted. My original plan was to continue my aikido study, but I got really fascinated by what Chuck does.
Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
I've been enjoying the reactions to this thread to date and would like to thank mle for this idea, as it was a feature that would never occurred to me. Having said that, I prefer the idea of a comparative document detailing different dojos/associations expectations of the pupil/student relationship, which you mentioned in your first paragraph, rather than an "Aikido Bill of rights" for two reasons.
This is more of what I am working on at the moment.
Quote:
1. Those who abuse their students are unlikely to make the bill of rights an issue in their dojos. In fact, I would assume they are more likely to use it as a "stick" for the hapless student who tries to get it introduced (unless of course you're envisaging some sort of legal/social enforcement to these rights -- which could get really out of hand).
Ew, ick, no! we're legislated enough! and if you look at America's "Homeland Security" act, the freedoms we have fought so hard for and shouted so loudly about are getting raped and pillaged... *ack*!

I'm just looking for guidelines which would let people look for trouble signs. What _shouldn't_ be happening in a dojo?
Quote:
So, I must disagree with the bill of rights, mainly because I feel it is unworkable and unenforceable, but appreciate the sentiments behind it.
Thank you, and I do understand that the concept of "rights" is, in our overlegislated society (US & Europe at least!) a bit dodgy.

Certainly unenforceable!

The hope is that someone, knowing these things shouldn't happen to them, would understand that it "wasn't right" and take proper action. Perhaps leaving, or feeling justified in reporting the incident under criminal codes because they had been, let's say, molested sexually or maliciously injured. This requires a certain amount of maturity and understanding, which a person without boundaries is not liable to "get" in the first place.. very tricky!

At this point I am referring to it as "guidelines" or possibly "reasonable expectations".

Certainly teachers have enough trouble with students expecting to be spoon-fed without having them screaming that their rights are being violated every time they have to take koshi-nage ukemi.

That said, though, I am more interested in informing students that having boundaries is OK, rather than telling teachers what to do with their students.

mle

(Paul, I'd send you a good German beer if I could!! :-) )

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Old 11-22-2002, 07:27 AM   #54
mle
Dojo: The Dojo (www.the-dojo.com
Location: Bavaria
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 75
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Quote:
Matt Rice (MattRice) wrote:
Hey Opher

so are you saying that one can be the target of abuse and not realize it; and that a list of criteria to judge that condition may be helpful? Sure, I can see that. It still involves taking responsibility, and not handing it off to someone else.
Bingo.

But if you don't KNOW you are responsible, that it's possible for you to responsibly not let your abuser abuse you, for the sake of BOTH your learning curves, how do you buy a clue?

...for only $19.99!

LOL! yes, I'm getting brain damage now.
Quote:
So are you coming to class tonight so I can abuse you or what?
Yeah, thump 'im with integrity.

;-D
Quote:
PS my spell checker insists that your are Gopher, or Opera, so pick one please ;-)
Oprah? Oprah does aikido?

Cool. Next designer hak for women!

mle

seriously, Ellis Amdur's Duelling book addresses this stuff in a very non-fluffy and interesting way.

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Old 11-22-2002, 09:03 AM   #55
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
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Quote:
Paul Schweer wrote:
If you're correct in speculating that Emily is a victim of abuse, I can't imagine how you expect what you've said here to help. If you're not trying to help, what then?

If she is, as you accuse, seeking revenge,

whom do you seek to protect? What threat --

who is threatened when the wounded cry out?

You condemn her methods.

What methods do you recommend?

How many years, how much sweat and blood?

What price have you paid?

What pains? What for?

What now -- that you're strong is a given,

a gift of your teachers, your training --

what now, when the weak

show their neck,

will you do?

Paul Schweer
OK, this is eloquent and poignant to the point of making me want to weep. (but I'm a bit of a wuss) Thanks Paul.

from mle
Quote:
But if you don't KNOW you are responsible, that it's possible for you to responsibly not let your abuser abuse you, for the sake of BOTH your learning curves, how do you buy a clue?
Yeah...dunno. After mulling this all over last night when I should have been thinking of other stuff (like not getting punched in the face in class...DOH!) It's a very complex question you ask, and probably has to do with the way a person is brought up, what happened to them in school as a kid, relationships etc. I don't know the answer, but I bet it's going to be different for everyone.
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Old 11-22-2002, 12:18 PM   #56
erikmenzel
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Dojo: Koshinkai Leeuwarden
Location: Leeuwarden
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Netherlands
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Re: No axes here... just questions

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon (mle) wrote:
Erik, your dojo is based out of Hombu.
It is??? Hmm, I did not know that. Seems you know more about our dojo than we ourselves, yet I cannot remember you visiting our dojo.
Quote:
AFAIK there is no room in your organization for any questioning of superiors whatsoever, no matter what they do.
As far as I know this is complete and utter nonsense. Can I ask on which you base this?
Quote:
In addition, you practice in Europe, and I don't know about the Netherlands, but in Germany Aikido is rather stringently regulated and subject to organizations.
Yes, the Netherlands is indeed stringently regulated. We have in our country a lot of problems with at least 4 organisations that all claim to be the one and only. All nothing but politics and powergames.

Our dojo does not take part in this political circus. We are a completely independent dojo. We don't tell others how to run their dojo or organisation and we dont appreciate it when others tell us what to do. We simply train aikido in all its aspects and wish to be judged on what we realy do. We dont want to be judged on prejudice, rumors or assumptions.
Quote:
Additionally, you never answered my question.
I am guessing here which question you meant. I assume you mean the
Quote:
mle wrote:
Perhaps you are one of those seniors who believes that sense must be beaten into your juniors? that it is your right to break arms if you feel like it or intimidate women? Then naturally you want nothing to do with the rights I am talking about
rambling which I thought to be quite out of line for somebody who does not know me or our dojo and has never trained with me or anybody else in our dojo. I personaly believe and practice the idea that everybody at all time must be safe within a dojo. Even the slightest injury must be prevented. I think that you are always accountable for your actions, whether it be inside the dojo or on an aikido-forum. I think that it is always also your responsibility that people are safe from both physical and psychological harm, especially in the dojo, but not restricted to the dojo only!. For me the idea of abusing beginners or intimidating women is so incomprehensible that for me the sugestion that I might do something like that feels like a very heavy insult.
Quote:
Not meant as an accusation unless you take it as such.
I realy dislike this comment. For me it radiates the idea of not taking responsibility for your own actions.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 11-23-2002, 07:25 AM   #57
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
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no quarter

Quote:
What now -- that you're strong is a given,

a gift of your teachers, your training --

what now, when the weak

show their neck,

will you do?
I'll reach down with my mighty arm,

as though I'm Thor,

and say, "get your ass up,

let's train su'more!"

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Old 11-23-2002, 09:58 AM   #58
mle
Dojo: The Dojo (www.the-dojo.com
Location: Bavaria
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 75
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Chuck posting under MLE's account

ANd Chuck being too lazy to log MLE out and log back in ...
Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
It appears to me that mle is the one that has been abused and that although she claims that she now practices another martial art, she continues to harbor resentment against her former instructor and aikido as a whole.
I don't know if I'd categorize anything that happened to her before as abuse, but i do know that outside the dojo, she endured much the same sorts of abuse most young girls and young women do on a daily basis. Nothing scarring or really injurious, but abuse nonetheless. We've come a long way, in terms of making the world a better place for women, but still have a long way to go.

And she doesn't have to 'claim' she's studying another art. She is. The jujutsu I teach has somewhat in common with aikido (my teacher studied for a while with both Tohei and Shioda back many years ago and we've kept much of what he learned. However, the differences are fairly large. We study really about half anf half, weapons and empty hand, for one.
Quote:
In response, it is her desire to find a way to exact revenge against her former instructor by getting the aikido community to impose a "bill of rights" on him.
Nope. Read her posts again. She's not seeking this for her own sake, but for the uninformed, the misinformed and the bullied. And yes, we do know of folks in those situations who ought to know better, but they believe it's the way things are done in the dojo.
Quote:
She is either very young, very imature, or both.
Neither. Well, depends on how you define 'em. She says she's really flattered at your comment. Her Oil of Olay seems tobe working ...
Quote:
Nevertheless, her methods seem to quickly be leading her down the road to mental illness.
Eh? Mike, you're SO far off base here. Perhaps you should ask yourself why what she's said threatens you so?

And for the record, this is largely her project, though we've discussed it. My opinion is that those who practice budo have two 'rights' -- the right to try to find a place that suits them and the right to leave if it turns out not to.

And, really, she's mostly dropped the 'rights' thing. It's a powerful word that gets people all het up and wrapped aroud the axle.

What she's doing, really, is developing a set of guidelines for folks who may be in bad situations to help them get out.

Chuck

(MLE's really much cuter then me)

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Old 11-23-2002, 11:06 AM   #59
Frp
Dojo: Charles River Kokikai
Location: Somerville
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 14
Offline
Mle-

This 'Bill of Rights' idea scares me as well. I can imagine half-assed students claiming they have the right to rank because they have shown up enough.

And, most often and more imortantly, the rules that people follow are the one's that are not expresed in words. (Think of sexism if you doubt that.)

If you want bad dojo's to disapear spread the word that martial arts do not require the boot camp macho atmosphere that so many expect.

Unless you are required to attend class for some reason, school credit or parental disapointment, I suppose, the right to vote with your feet is only right you need. Abusive instructors will soon play all alone.
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Old 11-23-2002, 05:37 PM   #60
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Baltimore
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 586
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So, I remember when this thread first started I spent some time wondering about the one about rank. On the one hand, I can see how witholding rank can be a form of abuse. On the other hand, nothing turns me off more than students who feel like they 'deserve' or have a 'right' to some rank or another. It's a really tricky point. I think that I would say that a student has a 'right' to feel appreciated for their time and commitment (or, more accurately, a good dojo accepts its responsibility to try to convey that feeling). I guess that whether or not the dojo is trying its level best, a student who feels they are un or underappreciated should understand that that is a serious warning sign and it may indicate that it's time to look around at other dojos.

It's all about warning signs, isn't it? It's about trying to understand when it might be a wise idea to start looking around and asking yourself whether this is the right place for you. A lot of people have agreed that this is the one 'basic right' that they would grant a student, but I can see where a lot of students might not understand how or when that right is properly exercised and would be interested in guidance on that point.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 11-24-2002, 02:45 PM   #61
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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How about responsibilities (not rights)

"Every person who enters the dojo has the responsibility to maintain a safe and respectful environment for the learning of Aikido. If there is a need, anyone may leave the mat or ask a question in an appropriate manner. Conduct that does not promote an effective learning environment should be avoided at all times."

It may be appropriate to be "mean to" or punish a student to help them learn, but very inappropriate to do the same thing just to be cruel.

It is the overall context that matters and the responsibilities fall on both the student and teacher alike.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 11-25-2002, 08:13 AM   #62
mle
Dojo: The Dojo (www.the-dojo.com
Location: Bavaria
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 75
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Quote:
David Wade (Frp) wrote:
Mle-

This 'Bill of Rights' idea scares me as well. I can imagine half-assed students claiming they have the right to rank because they have shown up enough.
Yeah, the rank thing's tricky.

It differs by individual, by school, etc.

What I'm grasping at here is a principle by which keeps it from being abused.

And I'm not at all sure how.

Frankly, rank isn't that important to me and never was, so I'm not terribly "motivated" about that one.. rank is a hole you dig..
Quote:
And, most often and more imortantly, the rules that people follow are the one's that are not expresed in words. (Think of sexism if you doubt that.)

If you want bad dojo's to disapear spread the word that martial arts do not require the boot camp macho atmosphere that so many expect.
The rules we aspire to seem to be more 'principles' than rules, and that's what I'm trying to get to.

Bingo on the second half of your statement.

On the other hand, some people require that and like it- it's only when you don't like it and it's not working for you that it's a problem. I have to respect that some people get a kick out of lining up and yelling "Osu" or whatever (Hi Justin, Scott) and I know some really great teachers who teach that way.
Quote:
Unless you are required to attend class for some reason, school credit or parental disapointment, I suppose, the right to vote with your feet is only right you need. Abusive instructors will soon play all alone.
I've started thinking of it as the Darwinistic method, wherein the abusive instructors retain a certain kind of student who is used to that for personal reasons (family history most likely) and the kinder, quieter instructors do the rest of the work including occasional "fixer-uppers" on refugees from the abusive dojo...

I think a concern at this point IS the persistence of abuse (In N America, I know of some in Europe but I don't know specifics) and the turning of the legislative eye on the martial community at large.

What I am curious about is, what resources can those of us who are training happily and feeling good offer those who are feeling trapped, or suffering from Bad Budo?

And what's the difference between correction and abuse? Personally, I think a "natural consequence" such as a bonk with a bokuto or twist or thump is OK. An "unnatural consequence" like a punitive slap when you don't "do it right" is not conducive to learning, it's not part of the "natural consequence".

Bottom lines seem to be "don't check your brain at the door" and "vote with your feet/wallet".

Overall context is more what I am trying to get a sense of in forum and on the aikido-l list.

I'll try to rewrite these things in terms of responsibilities.. that should be interesting!

thanks for your help,

mle

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