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Old 08-17-2017, 03:55 AM   #26
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Re: Is Aikido a Martial Art

Quote:
Jim Redel wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, if you're looking for meaning, you will be disappointed. There is no answer, because, as you've already seen, there will never be complete agreement on the exact use of the term. From a non-academic perspective (popular usage), I like to tell my students that ...
An interesting point of view - but sharing it with your students will make them very disappointed, I think. Certainly selling illusions by instructors who have just made aikido as a way to make money, will be more suited to them.
However, on the side of the discussion of words, one can not say that Katori Shinto Ryu and Kyudo belong to the same category of martial arts as Aikido, right?

Last edited by observer : 08-17-2017 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:08 AM   #27
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Is Aikido a Martial Art

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
However, on the side of the discussion of words, one can not say that Katori Shinto Ryu ... belong to the same category of martial arts as Aikido, right?
Are you Aware of the connection between TSKSR and aikidō? (By which I don't mean the developments, derivates and descendants called Aikido, but the aikidō connected to the Ueshiba family.) If you made your statement being aware of this connection, could you please explain it in more Detail.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:37 AM   #28
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Re: Is Aikido a Martial Art

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Are you Aware of the connection between TSKSR and aikidō? .
It is funny that your attention is addressed personally. I just raised the fact that in my understanding both Kataori Shinto Ryu and Kyudo are seeking to improve potentially lethal skills. Literally represent the art of war. Can you say the same about aikido?
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:41 AM   #29
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Re:

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If I take a butter knife from my kitchen drawer and use it to tighten the screws on the kitchen cabinet , is it still a butter knife or now a screw driver?
Put it back in the drawer and until you take it out again to use it, it's both.

Ron

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Old 08-17-2017, 09:21 AM   #30
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

Meow.

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Old 08-17-2017, 12:57 PM   #31
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Re: Is Aikido a Martial Art

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
... seeking to improve potentially lethal skills. ... Can you say the same about aikido?
I think the katori shintō ryū and aikidō share the very same principle of heihō wa heihō nari. This word of the founder Iizasa Choisai Ieano can also be heard listening to Ueshiba Morihei. The katori shintō ryū and aikidō - as I learn it from my teachers - share the way to develop peace - and a peacefull personality of the practioner - by learning a true budō. I.e. a budō that is meant to teach potentially lethal skills.
I own a copy of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Budo Kyohan with a personal dedication saying: True aikidō spirit is true budō spirit.
It is my experience that the katori shintō ryū and the aikidō taught in the line of the Ueshiba family not only don't disagree, but express the same understanding of budō. One using weapons, one using only the body.

Sugino Yoshio sensei found the aikidō of Ueshiba sensei to be more effective in the martial sense than the yawara of the katori shintō ryū. And it is taught in that same martial sense until today.

But besides that the aikidō I was taught allways had that martial aspect of seriously harming or even being potentially lethal. The very first aikidō technique that was shown during my very first aikidō seminar was atemi to the throat, or to the larynx to be more precise. I was taught with the words: "If it
works - finished. If it does not, more sophisticated techniques like ikkyo, for instance, may arise ... ."
Most teachers I have practiced with understand aikidō as being shinken. And some taught this concretely, in detail.

I myself think by now, that being honest and serious about that martial aspect actually is most important for being able to make aikidō a way to become a peaceful mind, a loving intention and to let grow and blossom the togetherness of people:
heihō wa heihō nari. It's a paradox. It's a kind of koan. Or - to me - a way to describe the tao. And how to get there. To me the martial way is a spiritual way ...
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #32
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

Humorous references to Schrodinger's cat and David's butter knife aside, there's a deeper principle at work here. Cats and butter knives are "things" in the sense that they're material. Their uses are sometimes variable but they're largely single use objects. Cats are pets, butter knives are used for spreading butter and other soft coatings on bread or crackers. They can be held, petted, wielded, put in boxes or drawers...

Aikido, in that sense is not a thing; it's a body of knowledge dealing with mind/body training and unification. Aikido isn't "used" in the same way that butter knives are used. What gets used are the abilities the student acquires from the study of Aikido. The abilities the student acquires are determined largely by the personal goals set by the student. These goals may change over time as the student grows and experiences Aikido at a deeper level of understanding.

Students of Aikido are free to explore its applications in daily life without the restrictions imposed on the utilization of material objects. Whether by design or happenstance, Aikido has proved to be very pliable when it comes to how it's used in everyday situations.

So to the question posed in the OP, "Is Aikido a martial art?"; while it's true that the abilities one learns thru the study of Aikido can be applied in martial situations, that is only one small slice of the Aikido pie. The rest of the pie is there for the taking, so eat up and enjoy.

Ron

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Old Yesterday, 01:32 AM   #33
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Re:

It is difficult for me to accept point of view of previous both respondents. All the attributes, as peaceful mind and personality, determination and personal goals set by the student, and changing over time as the student grows and experiences at a deeper level of understanding, simply come with time from any skills you learn. Also, if Katori Shinto Ryu and Kyudo use weapons, aikido practitioner, by his practice, should become a weapon by himself. Is it true?
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Old Yesterday, 07:54 AM   #34
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

So don't accept it. This is a discussion of ideas not an encyclopedia of facts.
"Should" is different than "could"...as you can see from this tiny discussion people train for different reasons.
The goal does not define the art...and the name Aikido just on Aikiweb means different things to different people. Having a narrow definition is not not going to change that.

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Old Yesterday, 10:56 AM   #35
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Re:

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
"Should" is different than "could"...
This discussion is not a wordplay. Please read my first post here. I would like to jointly determine the meaning of the term martial arts to be able to continue this topic. Your objections do not help.
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Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM   #36
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

Aw...my point is that there will be no consensus of the definition of either martial art or aikido.

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