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Old 10-26-2004, 10:20 AM   #26
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I agree with you Mr. Ledyard, as a police officer, the training we receive in an academy setting for what they call "Defensive Tactics" are nothing but muscling an opponent. through Aikido however, I have had much success dealing with most subjects, however my co-workers have not. Although I have tried to show them the benefit, they refuse to at least try a class. But, oh well!!!!
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Old 10-26-2004, 11:02 AM   #27
Hagen Seibert
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I never read anything about The Founder, Osensei, drinking or getting drunk. Wasn't it to do with his practice? His path of Aiki being one of spiritual and physical misogi. I though that excessive alcohol consumption would hinder that process?

Can anyone clear that one up? I'd be most appreciative.



Just read the "doka of the day" occasionally.
This man must be drinking ........ well, sometimes perhaps ;-)
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Old 10-26-2004, 03:37 PM   #28
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Thanks Michael,

Good to know these things are based on tradition. I'll remember that next time I'm at the pub with the other members of my dojo.

On the actual topic at hand though. I've encountered drunk and very aggressive people before. Aikido is effective against them. In relation to people affected by PCP and other drugs, I've never had any dealings, luckily. Surely in a circumstances where an individual is completely out of control as in the ways described above, the using of atemi, to render the aggressor unconscious would be an acceptable Aiki-waza. I think the effects of such a strike would be far less detrimental than the effects of the actual drug ingested.
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Old 10-27-2004, 11:18 AM   #29
Brightsky
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I concur with Michael H. and Daniel V.
I do however want to respond to Mark J.'s statement on taking out 3 cops. I dont believe he said they were "taken out". Something to keep in mind. The academy here instructs us to use strength in numbers when possible. It looks far better from an on lookers point of view to see several police struggling with one subject because each is using a minimal force, than it does to see one officer have to fight like a demon against one subject. The fbi did a study and said that 7 out of 10 times if a leo is rendered unconscious or incapacitated he or she is killed. And it could only take one strike to knock someone out. Remember we bring all kinds of weapons to every fight, so each altercation is a life or death struggle for us, more so if we are by ourselves.
If someone is on pcp it basically makes them immune to pain and it makes them seem to have the strength of 3 people. Maybe you oughta inquire about a ride along program in a big city in scotland and maybe u may get "lucky" enough to see it for yourself.
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Old 11-09-2004, 10:00 PM   #30
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Thumbs down Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I have found even the most basic of Aikido locks to be tremendously effective in the field compared to styles I have employed in the past. These are the types of patients, as well as psychiatric ones, who are most likely to cause me trouble in the field (I'm a Paramedic). I have used Aikido several times against methamphetamine OD's, psyche's & "drunks". Absolutly fantastic results every encounter, and no one gets hurt.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:57 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Hey All,

I think you are taking the extreme here with people on drugs or drunk.
I must admit that yes there are some horror stories and there are some violent and severe stories.
Yet as I lived in Belfast (Northern Ireland) with some extreme people who do get excessively drunk and like their drugs I can tell you that Aikido does work on them as you will find that most drunks are usually very good and once they know they are down and there is no way to beat a person or situation they are good.
As for people on drugs the same type of reactions if not better as you can talk to them and they respond better!

I know that most cultures are built on fear and horror stories of drug heads getting completely messed up and have broken arms and legs and keep on going but what you must remember is this:

HOW MANY CRAZED DRUG HEADS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY BEEN CONFRONTED BY IN YOUR LIFE?

Tiyler

"Deal with the faults as gently a your own"
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Old 11-10-2004, 09:58 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Going back to apoint that was made earlier, if you are relying on pain to make a technique work, you are doing something wrong.

Chris
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Old 11-10-2004, 11:43 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I agree, pain control techniques are less effective against someone under the influence of nearly any substance, joint locks are great however. Another thought is why are you having problems with these people in the first place? Are you seeking out confrontation? Going into areas frequented by such people? Desperate people resort to crime to feed their addictions. Dealing with people like this is a requirement of my job as well as my fellow brothers & sisters in law enforcement & fire dept. The public do encounter them but often many such confrontations can be avoided in the first place. Isn't that the way of Aikido?
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Old 11-26-2004, 09:53 AM   #34
Seigikai
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Aikido is the way of peace. If you get in these situations, then you have failed training aikido. I think that aikido is last resort to get out of these situations. Thats why i dont really like that someone use aikido in arest someone. To me, aikido is purely self defense...
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:38 AM   #35
Amendes
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

While, possibly Their Aikido is not effective.

I HAVE used Aikido on two occasions successfully on a drug addict while high once and once while definitely drunk. I know Aikido is effective on these people.. Submision is different then beating someones head in over and over.

Trust me, I know a drug addict (and I mean hard drugs too, one of his favorites being crack)
And he is also an alcoholic..

But not once have I've never hurt him, but I've moved him, and he responded to the pain I gave him while escorting him out.

Perhaps the people who say it is not effective don't make their training real.
For me if you don't make your training real then your not training properly anyways, and should go home.

Our Sensei asked us the other day. "Who here has had to use aikido physically outside? Put up their hand." While in our class of about 20 I believe two of us put our hands up. One used aikido when he fell and I used it to escort someone out once and to stop someone from attacking me another time. It made me feel like I was ineffective because my hands had to be used instead of my mouth and nobody else said the same.

But I assure you lots of people use Aikido through words. Later I will post a story of an Aikido student since I have to return to work now that my lunch has ended.
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Old 11-26-2004, 11:02 AM   #36
DaveO
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Tiyler Durden wrote:

HOW MANY CRAZED DRUG HEADS HAVE YOU ACTUALLY BEEN CONFRONTED BY IN YOUR LIFE?

Tiyler
More than one. Next question?



Ok.

Dude; we're not talking about some general; hypothetical thing here - we're talking about a very real; critical danger - one of the worst situations a cop can face. Please keep in mind this thread is focussed on the cops on this forum.
Now for the record; I agree with you - how often is the average person likely to have to deal with this situation? Answer - next to never; though I should point out that such a situation is not strictly environmentally controlled; it can happen any time; any where nowadays. Thing is; in this particular situation cops aren't 'everyone else'.
For them; this can be a daily ocurrence. Particularly those that work the inner cities such as Detroit; Dade County, Scarborough, etc. - drugs are a real problem...and its the cops that have to deal with that problem. In other words; they're the ones that can't hang back; they have to go in and physically lay hands on someone; knowing he's crazed on adrenaline/artificial drugs. That's the reason for the question; and the reason a lot of cops study aikido and similar arts - it adds another - nonviolent - weapon to their arsenal.

Now - let me address one other point:
Quote:
Yet as I lived in Belfast (Northern Ireland) with some extreme people who do get excessively drunk and like their drugs I can tell you that Aikido does work on them as you will find that most drunks are usually very good and once they know they are down and there is no way to beat a person or situation they are good.
Sir; I don't know what types of drunks you're used to dealing with; all I can say is - wow; you're lucky. Beyond alcohol, adrenaline, drugs, etc. fear of capture and the desperation to escape also adds norepinephrine to a perp's chemical cocktail. Forget a guy whose had a bit too much and become rowdy; we're talking serious Jekyll-and Hyde time here. All semblance of Human rationality is submerged; the pure animal fight for survival takes over. You will see perps handcuffed in the back of a cruiser; bashing their way out through the window with their face; fighting with all the insane panic an animal will use to gnaw its own leg off to escape a trap etc.
Hope this helps to clarify things.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 11-26-2004, 09:30 PM   #37
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

PCP persons.....................for cops the best medicine is a whole bunch on top of that person, protects you criminally, civilly as well as right nowwy.

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 11-29-2004, 09:52 AM   #38
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Going back to apoint that was made earlier, if you are relying on pain to make a technique work, you are doing something wrong.
Chris
Sorry, Chris, I don't mean to target you here, I'm just using your post as an example.

Many here insist that relying on pain to make a technique work is not how aikido is to be done. This is fine, we all know that by now, I'm sure. I have heard many of you say many times that resisting a technique or a pin causes a significant amount of pain and can cause injury. So, think of the pain issue this way: pain is not a way to make a technique work, but is can be a consequence to uke if he/she resists or tries to fight too much. So, when people say that druggies are resistant to pain and so aikido is a little harder to do, don't think that they have no idea what they are talking about. They probably have grounds for their opinions.
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Old 11-29-2004, 10:56 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Tanner,

No worries, interesting comment. I still stand by my statement, if you are "relying on pain" you are doing things wrong. Of all the great aikido I have felt, none of it hurt until I hit the ground. I certainly agree that pain can result from proper aikido but I do not believe that proper aikido relies on pain. Yes it "hurts" or is uncomfortable but a solid technique shouldnt have to hurt.

In this particular context, I have seen people do things while intoxicated that under normal conditions would have stopped them cold, including broken hands and in one case a cracked skull. I have been fortunate enough never to be around anyone that is on PCP or any "hard drug" and I'm game to keep it that way. Anyway, part of the original question really has to be "what about the guy whose pain threshold is magnified or removed?" If you're relying on pain to make him stop, it's going to be a sad day or two.

Chris
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:17 AM   #40
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

PCP folks and some others, do have a high tolerance to pain.........until the drug they are on wears off that is. That's why it is good to get a whole buncha coppers on top of the subject, that's right weigh them down because they are incredibly strong as well. Of course, the ultimate goal is to get a pair, probably more then one pair of cuffs on the suspect and probably not just the wrsts either, ankle ones as well, sometimes it might be better to hog tie someone like we are discussing. I'd strongly suggest the use of gloves as well to avoid any bodily fluid contact from the individual as they like to pee and poop on ya when your trying to do these things to them.
There are some effective pins that work if you ever find yourself being in the position to have to try and restrain one of these homies too. However, keep in mind, you might have to try one to many to find the one that work's on the individual subject your talking about and hopefully, when you do get the suspect under control, you have access to a radio or at least a phone to call for backup asap.
Peace my friends.
Tim!

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 11-30-2004, 11:33 AM   #41
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Smile Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I would say that I deal with drunks more than druggies. I work for a private security company on the supervisory staff for the swing shift. We respond to alot of bar fights. While I have seen situations where my aikido training might have helped (only one year of trainig as of now) the situation, I have not applied any in a real-life situation as of yet.

What would you guys say is the most effective techinique agaist a drunk?
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Old 12-28-2004, 03:32 PM   #42
Alvin H. Nagasawa
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I was involved in training Aikido to HOD recruits back in the 80'. There we Big Guys there, Line backer type, some with a attitude problem. But a good nikyo, sankyo put them in there place. I remember my teacher was invited to a Military Police training class. These guys surrounded the teacher and two of the sempai. They wanted to test them out. My teacher said "I want your biggest & Strongest guy first". That was the end of that situation, The MP's were thanking the teacher and sempai for coming and asked them to return again to teach them Aikido.
As for the wording "Aikido vs Druggies and Drunks" as a police officer you are bound to protect & Serve. Using digressions on the part of druggies and drunks, don't handle it alone, Get backup. Use a non violent form of taking down the person. Police brutality stains the public opinion of the police department.

Where as if you are a normal law biding Joe!, Call 911. As a M.A. Instructor, you might be charged for Brutality or even the death of that person. It's not worth going to jail and shaming your teacher and Dojo.

Lone Wolf of San Jose
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:49 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Tanner Hukezalie wrote:
...snipped... So, think of the pain issue this way: pain is not a way to make a technique work, but is can be a consequence to uke if he/she resists or tries to fight too much.
Aikido is also the art of kuzushi (unbalancing the opponent). If you have acquired a good level of skill in kuzushi (understanding & application), your uke would have minimal chance of resistance or counter.

Quote:
So, when people say that druggies are resistant to pain and so aikido is a little harder to do, don't think that they have no idea what they are talking about. They probably have grounds for their opinions.
Not just aikido, IMO almost every other MA (BJJ included) is ineffective against person high on drugs or an amok person. Ask any law enforcement officer that has experienced such situation. The situation is chaotic, formless and the person is baton resistant and rubber bullet proof. The LEO is exposed to risk of acquiring HIV/AIDS caused by open wounds and contact with body fluid from an infected druggies.

Just my 2 sen.

David Y
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Old 01-19-2005, 05:56 PM   #44
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Quote:
Teemu Ylistalo wrote:
Aikido is the way of peace. If you get in these situations, then you have failed training aikido. I think that aikido is last resort to get out of these situations. Thats why i dont really like that someone use aikido in arest someone. To me, aikido is purely self defense...
In the case of dealing with crazed dope fiends running amuk, for those trained in aikido that are using it in their policing professions, isn't aikido being used to maintain the greater peace by subduing the ones disturbing it?

Philosophy aside, it is classified as a "Martial" Art.


Carl Bilodeau
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"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 01-19-2005, 06:08 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I have bounced several inebriated people from a nightclub using simple arm locks and subdued one very violent guy with Hadaka Jime.

Correct me if I am wrong, Please. If one had to physically subdue a person on PCP, I would think a choke hold would be the best way to go. Applied correctly it should take but a few seconds to render the person unconscious.

Yeah...No...Maybe?


Carl Bilodeau
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:01 PM   #46
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Carl:


Obviously, what you say about the choke hold is an obvious yes. However, keep this in mind about chokes:
Law Enforcement is no longer allowed to use the choke hold for a reason, that reason is mainly because it is too easy to kill someone by mistake with them. If you ever use a choke hold, I advise you to only use it when you would also shoot that same person you were going to choke if you had been armed with a firearm. Other then that, pretty much if you use a choke hold, make your plans for going to jail for the rest of your life or close enough to it to make you want to not use that choke hold.
BE VERY CAREFUL WITH CHOKEHOLDS. Mistakes that come with using choke holds are the kind of mistakes you don't get a second chance with.

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 01-19-2005, 11:29 PM   #47
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

The carotid sleeper hold is still used by many, many police agencies today. Most refer to it as a "choke hold" although there is no choking involved. The bar arm choke has been prohibited by most US agencies as it can damage the airway beyond repair. The carotid sleeper can certainly be fatal if applied too long or if the individual has some unique medical situation. It remains a viable option for someone trained and experienced with it and can save lives, including that of the suspect.

One of the biggest downsides to the carotid sleeper is most folks apply it with their strong arm curled around the suspect's neck and locked with their weak arm. That leaves the handgun exposed to a grab and hard to protect.

Michael
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Old 01-20-2005, 06:21 PM   #48
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

I have used Aikido on the job many times, it works great. My Sensei also teaches Combat Aikido to my 30 man SWAT team and 100 man RRT unit (crowd control). The Aikido has been tested and proved effective many times in Police work.

For the record, the last guy I arrested on PCP bent my hand cuffs, flooded out his cell and ate and drank his own urine and feces! Yum, Yum (another good reason not to do drugs)
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Old 01-20-2005, 07:04 PM   #49
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Eric

Veryy interesting stuff and some funny too.


Mike:

Understood and agreed, however, getting the techniques to fly [justified] in a case that is not an officer fighting for his life or for fear of losing his life is next to impossible these days. I just wouldn't do it. I damn sure wouldn't teach it to the troops I'm in charge of training, unless I knew the officer very very well and observed them in combat type situations and felt comfortable knowing they would not abuse the technique. It's hard to feel comfortable with most cops because so many of them just are not willing to put in the time training other then what's absolutely required of them for in-service training or something like that. Maybe an advanced unit that use to having alot of training time that seems to have most of there work week taken up by training that might obviously be different. Maybe swat, ERT or something like that, those troops do tend to be more open to the more long term training. I was talking about your normal walk the beat or cruise in the cruiser cops.
Take care all.

Some folks are truly alive only because it's against the law to kill them. . .
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Old 01-20-2005, 08:27 PM   #50
Michael Hackett
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Re: Aikido vs. druggies and drunks

Sorry Tim, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I understand your view about your level of trust in your officers and that's what I disagree with most, unless you work for the most dysfunctional agency in the US. Our officers (throughout the country) are hired after an extensive process including intellectual testing, background investigations, polygraph examinations, and psych testing. After all the testing, we train them to perform our tasks and then send them through a field training program, during which they are evaluated daily. Then they have to weather their probationary period of a year or more. At any point along this process they can be sent down the road without cause (in most jurisdictions). Your/our officers were hired in the first place because of their judgment, maturity, and ability to perform our tasks in the manner we prefer. Sometimes a bad apple slips through and causes all sorts of negative things, but the vast majority shows up for work every day, does a good job and goes home having added some value to the community. To sit around and worry that someone might do something wrong or incorrectly demeans all of your employees and is, frankly pretty patronizing. We hire responsible adults and should treat them as such. Give them the tools they need to do the job we desire and trust them to use them responsibly. If an individual fails to live up to our expectations, deal with the individual.

I don't have any heartburn if your agency, or any other, decides that a particular technique or piece of equipment won't be acceptable as a matter of policy, but to take the position that certain individuals have to pass some imaginary and subjective test is wrong. That's not leadership, that's paternalism. Nothing wrong with "trust, but verify" - just remember the key word is trust.

Damn, I've gone off on another rant here. You just found my sore nerve.

Michael
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