Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Cady Goldfield wrote: It takes very little aiki to affect an opponent's structure. When the opponent attacks with force, it just increases the amount of energy that nage has available to work with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY&t=4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y

Similar stuff although he seems to include more of the instant kuzushi application in these videos.

Cady Goldfield wrote: It takes very little effort to affect an opponent's structure when you are carrying your body in the "internal" methodology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYbfTP-1AA

That move at 0:15 and 0:25 that he does i actually know that move, you can use just your knuckle for it, no fingers needed. At 4:07 he seems to doing Aiki, but again from a grab.

Igor Vojnović wrote: That move at 0:15 and 0:25 that he does i actually know that move, you can use just your knuckle for it, no fingers needed. At 4:07 he seems to doing Aiki, but again from a grab.

What he's doing is maintaining a deliberately maintained internal structure that absorbs the force of his partner's grab, and then using a small amount of internal manipulation (of specific muscles and fascia) to feed back into the partner's structure. The overt "moves" are just choices for how to deliver the force he is generating. He's "doing aiki" in all of these situations. That's what the demo is about.

Igor Vojnović wrote: I don't think these videos are a good reference to Aiki used against punches and kick's. He just seems to be parrying and closing the distance without any concrete usage of Aiki. None of this isn't something you wound't see in some Aikido dojo, of some other striking martial art for that matter. Thanks for the videos nonetheless.

What was you expacting to see?

Does anybody know who this guy is affiliated to?

http://www.aiki-arts.com/InstructorsAndStaff.htm

I'll throw out a couple of comments
1. Aiki does not show well on video. It's dangerous and difficult to show aiki principles in a "combat" scenario - it's just risky and results in injury. You're not gonna find too many videos that are 100% speed/power/etc. The thought of 100% with some of the IP people I have felt is just risking injury to my body. It's a better idea to understand the limitations of what you expect to see in a video and seek someone working on IP to get a better experience. At some point, you either need to trust a source, or seek the source to verify your trust in it. If you do neither, you are just pontificating about something that you are choosing not to resolve. Fish or cut bait, right?
2. These videos show kuzushi on contact and unusual power. I have talked before about the fact that every move you make that has aiki should demonstrate at least these two traits. Less movement is also a trait, and also exponential reaction (i.e. your partner moves more for the same movement you make). Sometimes, it's easy to spot an IP video with no markers of IP movement, which makes it suspect. It's probably more productive to think of this kind of research as forensic, with most of your information coming from multiple sources. I won't speak to right or wrong, but you can see some elements of aiki here.

Any time to touch your partner, there will be kuzushi on contact if you are using aiki. No if, ands, or buts. If your partner has balance after contact, whatever you are doing is not aiki. This happens before kata - kata is not a tool "get" kuzushi, it's a tool to apply technique. Now imagine kuzushi that breaks your ability to defend a punch or kick, coupled with some amount of power movement implemented in a punch or kick. It's not that aiki is doing anything crazy, but it disrupting your ability to defend yourself while increasing the power with which I can hit you - it's a double-whammy.

Jon, right. As I mentioned previously, all it takes is to try and give a good hard hit to someone with an internally-structured body and aiki, and you will never want to throw a second punch. It's like hitting a rubber-coated stone wall.

And yes, it's hard to see overt signs of aiki being used... though there can be some "tells" in the effects of instant kuzushi on uke's body- and diaphragmatic breath responses.

Cady Goldfield wrote: What he's doing is maintaining a deliberately maintained internal structure that absorbs the force of his partner's grab, and then using a small amount of internal manipulation (of specific muscles and fascia) to feed back into the partner's structure. The overt "moves" are just choices for how to deliver the force he is generating. He's "doing aiki" in all of these situations. That's what the demo is about.

Yeah i get it, he is doing Aiki from a grab but for the move itself you don't need Aiki. Like i said you can use your knuckle to do it.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: What was you expacting to see?

Something i haven't seen before.

http://www.aiki-arts.com/InstructorsAndStaff.htm

Thanks for the link.

Cady Goldfield wrote: And yes, it's hard to see overt signs of aiki being used... though there can be some "tells" in the effects of instant kuzushi on uke's body- and diaphragmatic breath responses.

So the small black guy is breathing heavily because Salahuddin is applying Aiki in his instant kuzushi? Is that a common side effect when Aiki is being applied to someone?

Jon Reading wrote: Any time to touch your partner, there will be kuzushi on contact if you are using aiki. No if, ands, or buts. If your partner has balance after contact, whatever you are doing is not aiki. This happens before kata - kata is not a tool "get" kuzushi, it's a tool to apply technique. Now imagine kuzushi that breaks your ability to defend a punch or kick, coupled with some amount of power movement implemented in a punch or kick. It's not that aiki is doing anything crazy, but it disrupting your ability to defend yourself while increasing the power with which I can hit you - it's a double-whammy.

Now these are some good traits to have in mind. Thanks.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Now these are some good traits to have in mind. Thanks.

At the risk of being pedantic - I take exception to the use of kata in that description. It is entirely possible for aiki to be part of, and demonstrated, within a kata. Kata is not just a technique - but the sum of the engagement.

Peter Rehse wrote: At the risk of being pedantic - I take exception to the use of kata in that description. It is entirely possible for aiki to be part of, and demonstrated, within a kata. Kata is not just a technique - but the sum of the engagement.

George Ledyard did aiki (I think) to me by just holding my wrist with his hand. We weren't practicing a form or anything. To any observer, we just looked like two people standing there.

I tend to think of "kata"="form". As in, a karate form, or an Aikido 22-count jo form. Do you mean something different?

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: What was you expacting to see?

Multitasking and foreign language.... sorry.

@ Peter, I don't get your point.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Multitasking and foreign language.... sorry. @ Peter, I don't get your point.

No real point - in case there was confusion I was talking about Jon's post quoted just before mine. The idea that somehow aiki must proceed kata just does not seem right to me (ok so there is a point - just not directly related to the thread).

Kata is not just a technique, it ranges from the initial closing of distance and the final separation and encompasses everything in between. The idea that application of aiki is somehow separate goes contrary to intent. Further, the idea that aiki stops when the ''technique'' takes over also grates. I would like to think one has aiki from the first contact all the way through to the end. Some older definitions talk about aiki before the first contact which I like the idea of but that is even more of a digression.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: I tend to think of "kata"="form". As in, a karate form, or an Aikido 22-count jo form. Do you mean something different?

Usually, when one thinks of kata in Japanese martial arts, it is paired. Single person kata exist more in some arts such as karate and iaido but in aikido the vast majority of practice has an uke and a tori and therefore is paired kata based.

Peter Rehse wrote: No real point - in case there was confusion I was talking about Jon's post quoted just before mine. The idea that somehow aiki must proceed kata just does not seem right to me (ok so there is a point - just not directly related to the thread). Kata is not just a technique, it ranges from the initial closing of distance and the final separation and encompasses everything in between. The idea that application of aiki is somehow separate goes contrary to intent. Further, the idea that aiki stops when the ''technique'' takes over also grates. I would like to think one has aiki from the first contact all the way through to the end. Some older definitions talk about aiki before the first contact which I like the idea of but that is even more of a digression.

Kata is shape (sho), right? It's a methodology of training our bodies to move how we want them to move naturally. We practice math problems, we form run, we hit practice balls - there are any number of academic examples that use form to craft behavior. I am not knocking kata and it has it's place in our training. What I am saying is kata does not create aiki, per se. Now, we can argue about what we consider kata, but I am going to stick with the paired techniques we all learn in aikido. Kuroiwa sensei called the aiki exercises "ki no kata" and referred to them separate from the technical curriculum.

Often, our partner makes contact and we think, "Ah! now I will move and make kuzushi with kata." This is not aiki, and it is not the kuzuzshi to which O Sensei (and his deshi) referred. How many doka refer specifically to this concept? blah, blah blah, instantly I am behind him. Blah blah blah, no space for attack. Blah blah blah, cut him down in an instant. Why are we ignoring "instant"? Why are we ignoring multiple references to kuzushi on contact, a trait described by almost ever deshi who was ever interviewed when asked about attacking O Sensei. Because we can't do it, so it must be wrong. Or, better yet, a metaphor.

Aiki can be demonstrated with kata. It is a vehicle through which we do something creative with aiki. The problem is that most of our kata are devoid of aiki, which means the kata is not actually training aiki, it's training a shape. How do you change that? Move with aiki, then the shapes you create will be filled with aiki.

Just for giggles, have you ever watched an actor (or actress), play a role that is foreign to them? Like an athlete, or a martial artist? The character moves so badly, it is plainly obvious that he (or she) has no idea why he (or she) is moving? The old Seven Samurai movie comes to mind. I believe in production the movie was referred to as the "seven-year samurai", because Yoshio Sugino was unsatisfied with the way the main characters moved using a sword. Empty movement, indeed.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Yeah i get it, he is doing Aiki from a grab but for the move itself you don't need Aiki. Like i said you can use your knuckle to do it.

Right. There are overt techniques that appear overtly the same in both internal and external arts. Punches, strikes and kicks also may have seemingly identical counterparts as well. But, while they may have the same outward appearance, the way they are delivered (power-wise) and the effect they have on the opponent's body, are quite different.

Jujutsu is waza. Aiki is body method -- the power-driver. When aiki and jujutsu waza are combined, you get aikijujutsu. Aiki allows you to manipulate your own internal muscle, fascia and tendon in ways that reinforce your structure and generate power that can penetrate an opponent's structure without making much overt movement. Without the aiki, it is jujutsu... which is dependent on externally-applied leverage, vectors, and overt movement of mass to work.

Igor Vojnović wrote: So the small black guy is breathing heavily because Salahuddin is applying Aiki in his instant kuzushi? Is that a common side effect when Aiki is being applied to someone?

Yes, and the same effect occurs on large people as well. I have seen him apply the same thing to a 350 lb. Kodokan-ranked judoka and high-ranked jujutsuka. Same effect. He is manipulating his own mass in a way that goes through to the uke's center of mass and compresses his diaphragm and his joints.

Diaphragmatic compression is a halllmark of aikijujutsu.

Jon Reading wrote: Kata is shape (sho), right? It's a methodology of training our bodies to move how we want them to move naturally. We practice math problems, we form run, we hit practice balls - there are any number of academic examples that use form to craft behavior. I am not knocking kata and it has it's place in our training. What I am saying is kata does not create aiki, per se. Now, we can argue about what we consider kata, but I am going to stick with the paired techniques we all learn in aikido. Kuroiwa sensei called the aiki exercises "ki no kata" and referred to them separate from the technical curriculum. Often, our partner makes contact and we think, "Ah! now I will move and make kuzushi with kata." This is not aiki, and it is not the kuzuzshi to which O Sensei (and his deshi) referred. How many doka refer specifically to this concept? blah, blah blah, instantly I am behind him. Blah blah blah, no space for attack. Blah blah blah, cut him down in an instant. Why are we ignoring "instant"? Why are we ignoring multiple references to kuzushi on contact, a trait described by almost ever deshi who was ever interviewed when asked about attacking O Sensei. Because we can't do it, so it must be wrong. Or, better yet, a metaphor. Aiki can be demonstrated with kata. It is a vehicle through which we do something creative with aiki. The problem is that most of our kata are devoid of aiki, which means the kata is not actually training aiki, it's training a shape. How do you change that? Move with aiki, then the shapes you create will be filled with aiki. Just for giggles, have you ever watched an actor (or actress), play a role that is foreign to them? Like an athlete, or a martial artist? The character moves so badly, it is plainly obvious that he (or she) has no idea why he (or she) is moving? The old Seven Samurai movie comes to mind. I believe in production the movie was referred to as the "seven-year samurai", because Yoshio Sugino was unsatisfied with the way the main characters moved using a sword. Empty movement, indeed.

Lot's of words but I am guilty of that too.

It really depends on what the technique within the kata is and how it is practiced. Some techniques within the aikido syllabus don't lend themselves to aiki just as the old Daito-ryu differentiated between jujutsu and aiki-no-jutsu techniques. For the ones that do - kata should be executed with aiki throughout. For the others, I personally think that there are places we can sneak in a little aiki. In either case, kata can be used to train aiki although I wont argue the point that often this is not done very well. I also wont argue the point that there are ancillary exercises that help train aiki more directly but kata does provide the bridge to applicability (if trained correctly).

As for instantaneous that is another issue and has further meaning than just a moment in time. I tend to read that as without pause which is potentially not quite the same thing. This does relate to kata training since by definition both sides know what is coming and it is very hard to train for the spontaneity this implies. Still it can be done if one is conscious of ones goals.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: What was you expacting to see? http://www.aiki-arts.com/InstructorsAndStaff.htm

Okazaki Shuji was a deshi of Yoshida Kotaro (the deshi of Takeda Sokaku who introduced Ueshiba Morihei to Takeda). Yoshida's Daito Ryu provided the aiki and also mokuroku from Takeda. Okazaki Sensei also studied extensively in two koryu: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Ryu - the former being the source of the extensive weapons kata and applications in Hontai Hakkei Ryu, and the latter being a bodyguard art with many classical kata and waza specifically geared toward subduing and controlling an assailant or aggressive potential assailant. He also studied Kosen judo for its newaza. There may have been other influences, as well, but these are the principle ones.

The aiki of Hontai Hakkei Ryu comes primarily from Yoshida's Daito Ryu. Okazaki Sensei also "tweaked" the DR mokuroku to his own vision of practical applications, so while HHR-AJJ has this DR heritage, it is not, itself, Daito Ryu. It's an amalgam of neo-classical and koryu arts that are trained both traditionally and in a contemporary pragmatic "street applicable" way.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: George Ledyard did aiki (I think) to me by just holding my wrist with his hand. We weren't practicing a form or anything. To any observer, we just looked like two people standing there. I tend to think of "kata"="form". As in, a karate form, or an Aikido 22-count jo form. Do you mean something different?

Aiki is a body method that produces uncommon structural stability and power. It is not a technique or a "thing." So, yeah, it is NOT a form or pattern; certainly, not a form or pattern of waza.

Techniques are overt movements that can be applied with or without aiki. If without, then you must obtain power from some other method in order to drive the technique. For example, overtly stepping in tenkan produces the centripedal force needed to move and guide uke along.

When you apply aiki, you do not need to use overt tenkan to move uke. You initiate movement from inside yourself, manipulating your structure and tissues in such a way that the force comes out of you from the inside, not from having to step-move on the outside.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Aiki is a body method that produces uncommon structural stability and power. It is not a technique or a "thing." So, yeah, it is NOT a form or pattern; certainly, not a form or pattern of waza. Techniques are overt movements that can be applied with or without aiki. If without, then you must obtain power from some other method in order to drive the technique. For example, overtly stepping in tenkan produces the centripedal force needed to move and guide uke along. When you apply aiki, you do not need to use overt tenkan to move uke. You initiate movement from inside yourself, manipulating your structure and tissues in such a way that the force comes out of you from the inside, not from having to step-move on the outside.

This is my understanding of the "aiki" that you and Jon are talking about.

George and I were not "doing kata", according to the definition posted. To anyone watching us in the garden that day, we appeared to just be taking turns holding each other's wrist - no stepping or other motion involved.

He was trying to show me how uke should connect to nage's center. He took hold of my wrist, I felt something like water - neither hot nor cold - come up my arm, then further into my body. He then coached me as I did the same to him. I was only able to even try doing it because I'd just been shown by someone else what Ground and Gravity forces were and how to use them.

Unfortunately for anyone dreaming of becoming an Aiki God, this stuff takes lots of practice, some of it can be boring/tedious, and downright uncomfortable if you have trouble letting go of upper-body tension.

From my perspective, aikido is aiki-do, the study of aiki. The point I am trying to make is that I don't want to do jujutsu - I want to train aikido. So what is the point of doing techniques that lack aiki? Do it 10,000 times and all you have practiced is 10,000 techniques that don't have aiki. Now you're an expert in techniques without aiki. This makes no sense.

I was taught that O-Sensei never did anything twice. He was free-wheeling and nobody could follow. So they tried to imitate and created kata, so that they felt on secure ground. Mixing up kata and aiki doesn't make sense.
Best,
Bernd

Nice description of the sensation and feel, Paolo.
You were feeling the effects of what George Ledyard was organizing and moving within his body and directing through your structural alignment to your center of mass. Not waza, but if applied to waza, the waza would be infused with aiki and have a different kind of effect than just a straight jujutsu application.

And yes, it "doesn't look like anything" when you are just letting someone feel the process. Without applying it with a technique, it's just quietly affecting your structure from within. If he isn't applying enough force to collapse or move your structure -- but to just let you feel it -- than to someone watching, it will look like you are just standing there holding hands.

Paolo Valladolid wrote: This is my understanding of the "aiki" that you and Jon are talking about. George and I were not "doing kata", according to the definition posted. To anyone watching us in the garden that day, we appeared to just be taking turns holding each other's wrist - no stepping or other motion involved. He was trying to show me how uke should connect to nage's center. He took hold of my wrist, I felt something like water - neither hot nor cold - come up my arm, then further into my body. He then coached me as I did the same to him. I was only able to even try doing it because I'd just been shown by someone else what Ground and Gravity forces were and how to use them. Unfortunately for anyone dreaming of becoming an Aiki God, this stuff takes lots of practice, some of it can be boring/tedious, and downright uncomfortable if you have trouble letting go of upper-body tension.