Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Paolo Valladolid wrote: I don't want to misrepresent Taikyoku Budo, so I will just make the following comments about it - and I apologize for the "cultural trappings" comment if you found it offensive - I was thinking of attacks like yokomen uchi which simulate sword movement - these are not found in this system.

Not at all, i just wanted to mention that when you get to a certain point in practice and ask your instructor/sensei, what is the actual point of "this" and how can i use it in a more "combat efficient" manner all of those "cultural characteristics" seem to whither away. The problem is that many of them just don't talk about it openly.

1. They work a lot out of this position, which I have not seen very much in Aikido:

Sleeve and elbow grab, a basic stance in modern Judo. I can understand why.

2. You really do have to learn how to use 6H skills: Dantian usage, Ground and Gravity jin, etc. to get anywhere in Taikyoku Budo. There are some fa-jin (explosive strikes) that are part of the core (Five Themes) of the system - definitely need 6H for them. Some stuff relies on being able to manipulate "connections" inside another person's body. I haven't worked with you in person so I don't know where you are with your 6H skills and how good you are at applying them to your Aikido, but I have worked with a fair number of Aikidoka who move without 6H skill, and they outnumber the few who do.

Well, given the fact that i have no actual idea of what they are i will have to say nowhere.

Maybe your Aikido has all of the above features - I don't know. Just reporting what I observed in Taikyoku Budo vs. Aikido.

Thank you for that. I understand the general difference.

I don't believe regular Aikido practice alone helps big guys relax their upper bodies and not rely on upper-body strength to execute Aikido, based on working with big guys in Aikido dojos. I am not skilled at 6H stuff at all, but after instruction from Mike and Budd, and practicing 6H stuff on my own, I can feel when my partner's upper body is moving separately from the lower body. Of course my comments are based on my own experience.

Well you have experience which i don't so i will take your word for it.

The instructional course 'Integrated Strength", written by a guy who trained with Dan Harden, recommended 10 min. of zhan zhuang practice, for those new to zhan zhuang. As one progresses the practice time increases - at least in the book. I don't follow the book anymore because I recently met a Taijiquan teacher, and I'll leave it up to him to decide how much time I need to stand in zhan zhuang.

How is it that he influenced your training so much?

If you have practiced zhan zhuang for at least 10 min. without your shoulders getting sore, you could just be ahead of me in your 6H skill level.

No, again sorry for being unspecific, what i meant was soreness through physical application of technique. not internal practice.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Yes, but i guess i'm gonna have to read it more thoroughly.

I have friends that trains for Dan that claims that the blog is pretty accurate. I think I can grasp the concepts theoretically, but it doesn´t make my training any better. It´s like training to be a sommelier by only reading about wine instead of tasting it.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Sleeve and elbow grab, a basic stance in modern Judo. I can understand why.

That image was the closest I could find to the Taikyoku Budo grip, in which one hand is on the shoulder (not the collar) and the other is on the elbow (not the sleeve). Two points of contact for jin usage. Budd and Ledyard figured out that the greater the surface area of contact between partners, the easier it is for students to learn this kind of stuff. That's why the Taikyoku guys work out of this position, and Ledyard had us increase our contact area gradually after seeing us struggle with Ikeda's stuff.

Igor Vojnović wrote: How is it that he influenced your training so much? No, again sorry for being unspecific, what i meant was soreness through physical application of technique. not internal practice.

No worries. I have not gotten sore from Aikido waza practice.

I am not sure about this question, though. So far, my biggest influences have been Mike Sigman and Budd Yuhasz. Budd, Ikeda, and Ledyard have shown me glimpses of higher level mind-body usage for martial arts that have inspired me to practice zhan zhuang and other 6H stuff more diligently.

The thought of letting an IP person getting two hands on something (like your gi top) without slack is pretty scary. But, I think contact closer to your "center" makes it easier to feel how your center is affected by movement. Judo grip is fine, push hands is fine, a boxing stance is fine. Ryote tori can be fine but the hands are pretty far away from the center, so I consider those movements more difficult.

From my experience, it's pretty tough to put IP/aiki into your movement until you've got a pretty good feel for the re-wiring of your body movement. We've been at it a little while and just now starting to feel where we should change our movement, let alone make it "combat" effective. We have noticed the movement transcends cultural barriers and sister arts, though.

I also encourage you to read Chris Li's blog (sangenkai). There is a lot of foundation evidence to start looking at the aiki body (Tohei's one-point) and the role of a connected body in aikido. While you'll find a lot of variation in what method of IP works best, I think there is a general consensus that you have to connect your body, however you do it. Then there's whole body movement, power production, and rotation. Allen's blog does a pretty good job of translating IP for aikido people.

Igor Vojnović wrote: Sleeve and elbow grab, a basic stance in modern Judo. I can understand why.

Off topic and completely unrelated to IP/Aiki.

Get a partner and 4 tennis balls. Put balls under the armpits and grab each other in classical kumi kata like in the image, Do randori. The one who lets the balls drop "loses".

Jon Reading wrote: The thought of letting an IP person getting two hands on something (like your gi top) without slack is pretty scary.

Budd can explain better than me as to why this is a feature of training, because he's the one who took over the development of Taikyoku Budo after Ellis Amdur moved on to other things. I do remember him saying that more contact area between partners is better for learning purposes. As for actual combative or self-defense usage (as opposed to training/learning) against evil IP people, you should contact a qualified TB instructor with your questions.

*collar and elbow

It doesn't really matter how or where you grab or hold a partner when training IP/aiki. It's the physical contact itself that allows you to "listen" to and change with each other's movements (even the smallest tensions or shifts), and to affect their structure and center of mass on contact.

Peter Gröndahl wrote: I have friends that trains for Dan that claims that the blog is pretty accurate. I think I can grasp the concepts theoretically, but it doesn´t make my training any better. It´s like training to be a sommelier by only reading about wine instead of tasting it.

Unfortunately this is one of those things where abstract contemplation and visualization can't help, unlike regular waza training. By everything posted here the best option is to get hands down training. Especially for the initial part.

Cady Goldfield wrote: It doesn't really matter how or where you grab or hold a partner when training IP/aiki. It's the physical contact itself that allows you to "listen" to and change with each other's movements (even the smallest tensions or shifts), and to affect their structure and center of mass on contact.

While we are on the subject of surface, how do you apply Aiki against punchers and kickers? Do you use regular strategies like closing the distance?

Igor Vojnović wrote: While we are on the subject of surface, how do you apply Aiki against punchers and kickers? Do you use regular strategies like closing the distance?

Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgfg9996NI & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVsadMi0GpM

Igor Vojnović wrote: While we are on the subject of surface, how do you apply Aiki against punchers and kickers? Do you use regular strategies like closing the distance?

Demetrio has already posted two good videos from Salahuddin Muhammad (Hontai Hakkei Ryu Aikijujutsu) that demonstrate how internal body method (IP/aiki) add concussive power and control of the opponent's structure. When you combine internal body method to waza, you can absorb/neutralize and redirect the opponent's force, and simultaneously set him up for myriad locks, take-downs, throws, pins, and other waza. The internal method is a body state that generates both power and manipulative (on the opponent's structure) control. Any waza -kicks, punches, or whatever - applied while maintaining and using that body state, makes the techniques very controlling and powerful.

To the guy punching or kicking, depending on what you choose to do with his force, the sensation to him is like hitting/kicking a rubber-coated brick wall or hitting a revolving or swinging door that goes away and then comes back and whacks him with double the force of the opponent's original strike or kick. It can feel ghostly (his punch's force "disappears") or it can be like hitting that rubber-coated brick.

The same process also allows you to punch, strike and kick back with tremendous concussive force that can penetrate deep into the opponent's tissues, if you choose to do so. The Chinese internal martial arts are famous for their "fajin" (which is also part of Japanese aikijujutsu, and called "hakkei") which is the explosive propelling of force.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgfg9996NI & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVsadMi0GpM

Again zombi attacks as a reference for fighting

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Again zombi attacks as a reference for fighting

What a surprise, isn't it?

Okay,

First, who posts a video of instruction, then criticizes it for lacking some element unrelated to the purpose of the video? That's at best trolling and at worst trying to disrupt the thread. Post a video that means what you say, or say, "there aren't great videos on this topic."

Second, aiki is not magic. if you do not know how to deal with punches and kicks, then you will still not know how to deal with punches and kicks... with aiki. Aiki is the foundation of your martial style. What you will notice is some styles are better integrated into aiki movement. Some people are better at altering fighting style to aiki movement. Aikido is supposed to address kicks and punches, the problem is that without the right foundation, it has a hard time resolving different attacks, kicks and punches included. This is, in a question, probably one of the best demonstrations that much of our movement does not have aiki, which is why much of our art has difficulty resolving a variety of movement and fighting styles.

First, learn the body movement of aiki. Then, learn a fighting style that lays on top of your body movement.

Jon Reading wrote: Okay, First, who posts a video of instruction, then criticizes it for lacking some element unrelated to the purpose of the video? That's at best trolling and at worst trying to disrupt the thread. Post a video that means what you say, or say, "there aren't great videos on this topic."

You talkin' bout me?

It's just Szczepan being Szczepan. He hasn't changed in 20 years, and never will. Even though he knows he is welcome to feel for himself, anytime, it's easier to be an armchair critic.

To those who question what they see, yeah, it looks unrealistic if you have never experienced it firsthand. If you get a chance to visit someone like Salahuddin Muhammad, though, throw punches, hard shoves, pulls, kicks, whatever you like. See for yourself what it feels like when your hand or foot makes contact with something that feels like a brick wall. The uke throw committed attacks, but it is concussively painful to him to do so. He cannot penetrate nage's sphere.

Videos like this are instructional, not intended to be demonstrations of street fighting apps. They are to show principles and concepts that can then be trained at-speed and worked into a true fighting repertoire. To interpret these videos as anything other than that, is just setting up a straw man to knock down in criticism of this internal body method and its uses.

If you don't understand those principles, that's okay. But accept that you don't understand, and withhold your criticism until you have an -educated- opinion based on experience.

Cady at least you have a clue, though I don't now, where or who you got it from.

Well,
it's nothing new that there will be always people who will think that what they know is all about there is. And, of course some of them talk about O-Sensei's aikido as if they had made it their own, after many, many years of diligent practice. Nothing to sneeze at, many years of diligent practice, but some of them, most of them I guess, never have felt, what we call aiki. So they can't, simply can't have a clue. Be they happy…it's their inherent right.

I myself didn't have a clue for many decades, I have to admit, although I formed some ideas and this at least opened up my mind. But when I met with Dan, the one who hasn't been allowed to speak for himself on this forum for some years now, not that he might care, I immediately felt something strange, something that gave me a clue.
It's got something to do with what Jon Reading is talking about here.

Of course, after many years of the typical training one might think, wow, what an extraordinary strong man, but then after he got you from the soft side and you equally felt immediate kuzushi, you might feel helpless.
What they say about old Ueshiba and his ability to kill or destroy with one strike, you will get the idea. It's the truth. At the same time you will appreciate to have met with a peaceful mind, who has been able to make this choice. The other good thing is that if you have an open mind, Dan might welcome you and teach you. He really can do and he can do teach. His teaching method develops by the hour and he's getting his stuff made comprehensible faster and faster.

But no-one is obliged to believe me. If you're lucky, you'll be invited to feel for yourself, but if you only look at those things we call aiki from outside or even only on video, then very likely you might think it's all fake like Tohei did when he first saw O-Sensei, but after he had felt…

Of course we have to rebuild our body and this takes some time and effort, but imho it's worth it.
Even an old man like me is making some progress now…

Best,
Bernd

Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned Tohei, because he has nothing to do with aiki, imho, he didn't get it and certainly didn't teach it.

Best,
Bernd

Cady Goldfield wrote: Videos like this are instructional, not intended to be demonstrations of street fighting apps.

And yet it is not what I understood from his explanations. But it had to be because of my poor English....

Bernd Lehnen wrote: Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned Tohei, because he has nothing to do with aiki, imho, he didn't get it and certainly didn't teach it. Best, Bernd

.

Aiki/IP people include the use of Up and Down (Heaven and Earth) force vectors in their theory and practice.

When Tohei spoke of "keep One Point, weight underside... " he was talking about Up force (aka "ground force"). At least some of the "ki tests" used by Ki Society and other Aikidoka influenced by Tohei test specifically for one's ability to use Up force.

So maybe he didn't get the total "aiki package" from Ueshiba but I wouldn't say he had totally "nothing" to do with aiki either.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: And yet it is not what I understood from his explanations. But it had to be because of my poor English....

Again, he is speaking of concepts and principles. Demonstrations and lessons are not street fights. Keep in mind that when an untrained (in internal method) person hits or attacks someone who is trained, the more energy the attacker gives, the more painful and shocky it is to him when he attempts to hit, strike or kick. His energy is taken to the ground and then returned to him, augmented by additional force generated by nage.

It takes very little energy on nage's part to propel force and cause damage and pain to a person who does not have the means to neutralize and ground out that force. Salahuddin Muhammad is extremely careful when he is demonstrating on a student or seminar participant. That's why I have to say, again, that unless and until you encounter someone who has these skills, you will not be able to understand the how and the why of their application, or why demos like these have profound meaning.

It takes very little aiki to affect an opponent's structure. When the opponent attacks with force, it just increases the amount of energy that nage has available to work with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y

It takes very little effort to affect an opponent's structure when you are carrying your body in the "internal" methodology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYbfTP-1AA

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgfg9996NI & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVsadMi0GpM

I don't think these videos are a good reference to Aiki used against punches and kick's. He just seems to be parrying and closing the distance without any concrete usage of Aiki. None of this isn't something you wound't see in some Aikido dojo, of some other striking martial art for that matter. Thanks for the videos nonetheless. Does anybody know who this guy is affiliated to?