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Old 10-17-2009, 10:51 PM   #151
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Buck, are you a scientist? How many "scientific studies" have you done?

For the past decade, I've been deeply involved in studies of cancer, herbicide toxicity, diseases related to rubber tire manufacture, myasthenia gravis and others. That's all I do.

Who do you suppose would do a study of "fascia in 'internal' martial arts"?

Who would fund it?

What would be their research goals?

How would they determine their hypotheses and how would they measure their results?

I remember when I was very young, long before I was directly involved in research, when I used to come up with all kinds of ideas for "scientific studies" that should be done on various elements of martial arts. All it took was a few conversations with people actually involved in research to realize that your bird won't fly.

Dan and others have offered you a sword and you've pretty well cut both your own feet off with it, but you're demanding a sharper sword because the one that cut your feet off isn't sharp enough for you.

Zannen. Kawaiso Borat.

Ja ne.

David
What I love about these arguments is listening to people who think of themselves as rational, logical beings ignore the possibility of gaining empirical experience because there is no "scientific" explanation for something. There is no scientific explanation because no one has taken the time or spent the money to study these things. However, there is descriptive terminology that has existed for hundreds of years. There are people who can teach these skills. They can demonstrate these skills. So what are folks waiting for? A grant from the NIH? These discussions between the folks that know and the folks that have no clue are ridiculous.

You think its BS, get on the mat with one of these folks. If you think you can do what they are talking about, show people you can. But sitting back and questioning everything in a discussion when you have absolutely no direct experience of it is ridiculous.

I have trained in Aikido most of my adult life. I have met people from outside of the art who have skills which very few, if any, Aikido people posses, and I have trained with many of the best. So I don't particularly care if there is "scientific" explanation. I want someone to teach me how to do it , how to train it, and I'll be happy to develop my own descriptive terminology for it all. I don't care if it's scientific, I just care if I can get others to do it once I understand it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:00 PM   #152
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Something shown to me by a teacher from Daito Ryu dealt with this specifically. Also, Saotome Sensei has shown us things that I only recently understood had to do with this but he didn't have the terminology to explain in our terms. Now that it's been shown to me more concretely, I understand what he was trying to show us.

Research has shown that the brain receives something like a quarter million signals every second which process on an unconscious level. The number that can be processed consciously is somewhere around 40. Part of "aiki" is working with this unconscious input. The connective tissue is part of this sensory system.

This is a separate issue I think from issues concerning power release via internal power.
Thanks. It was helpful. I know the corpus callosum is connective tissue that aids us as well. From what I am told much of our movement is involuntary and done without conscious input. Thus, I agree, proficient Aikido requires that.

How did the Daitoryu instructor deal with this area directly noting it and it's voluntary function to enhance or play a role in technique? Where there instructions specifically dealing with the fascia, in a voluntary to get a specific result, like say as we can do with muscle like close or open our hand. But not like our heart, and other involuntary actions of our bodies. I am not looking for a result which then is labeled to be such when I referenced O'Sensei. I was more referring to him having anatomical knowledge and was able to associate the fascia to exact a result in relation to a technique.

Hope that helped.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:03 PM   #153
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

George Ledyard wrote:

Quote:
I have trained in Aikido most of my adult life. I have met people from outside of the art who have skills which very few, if any, Aikido people posses, and I have trained with many of the best. So I don't particularly care if there is "scientific" explanation. I want someone to teach me how to do it , how to train it, and I'll be happy to develop my own descriptive terminology for it all. I don't care if it's scientific, I just care if I can get others to do it once I understand it.
My thoughts exactly George!

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Old 10-17-2009, 11:45 PM   #154
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
What I love about these arguments is listening to people who think of themselves as rational, logical beings ignore the possibility of gaining empirical experience because there is no "scientific" explanation for something. There is no scientific explanation because no one has taken the time or spent the money to study these things. However, there is descriptive terminology that has existed for hundreds of years. There are people who can teach these skills. They can demonstrate these skills. So what are folks waiting for? A grant from the NIH? These discussions between the folks that know and the folks that have no clue are ridiculous.

You think its BS, get on the mat with one of these folks. If you think you can do what they are talking about, show people you can. But sitting back and questioning everything in a discussion when you have absolutely no direct experience of it is ridiculous.

I have trained in Aikido most of my adult life. I have met people from outside of the art who have skills which very few, if any, Aikido people posses, and I have trained with many of the best. So I don't particularly care if there is "scientific" explanation. I want someone to teach me how to do it , how to train it, and I'll be happy to develop my own descriptive terminology for it all. I don't care if it's scientific, I just care if I can get others to do it once I understand it.
Becareful George it's not nice to start off a thread that way. You have to stay on topic and make it about a person. I got in trouble for that in this thread.

I am like most people, I don't think it is BS if it is proven properly. But that isn't what this is about. It is about researching, it is getting a hold of a study to see what is going on. That is the norm in the world, like medicine, business, and finance, and isn't that what they teach in college? I need to see all kinds of research in my business before I can make a decision, or give credibility to any idea or proposal. Also, medicine relies heavily on research studies. I don't know how many papers have been done on the fascia, but I am sure someone looking for a Ph.D. thesis might do it on the fascia and martial arts.

As I said before, martial arts is an area that has allot of misinformation, and stuff. What is wrong with asking for the best explanation modern science can give? As I said before, if it isn't their fine. I hope to read one someday.

But if this is simply a matter of nomenclature, terminology, specialized language and such then there is no need to prove anything, is there? I mean becomes a mute point, right. Because the principle exists without the langauge, and it can be taught with limited language (move here, move there, or by pointing here or there, moving a limb etc.), and not of the language of western anatomy. Just as Shakespeare pointed out in his play, Romeo and Juliet, What's in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.... Language doesn't define things or shapes something into being, it communicates it. Things exist without a langauge, but it's hard to communicate things complex to others, like teaching medicine and getting something done with others if there is no common and proper langauge. Societies advanced in large part due to langauge, communication of ideas, building, etc. to others and with others. That is why proper language is important. That is why a study is important. Both proper language and study leads to proper understanding and knowledge. If that wasn't the case we would all still believe the earth is flat and not round.

To recap, all I initially said was, is there a study on what Dan is talking about in term of fascia. And it would be great if Dan was a part of it. I thought that was complimentary, it was intended to be. But as it stand, there isn't a study, but I will hope for it in the future.

Last edited by Buck : 10-18-2009 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 12:13 AM   #155
Keith Larman
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Language is also necessarily a two-way medium. I.e., someone has to say/write it, and the other person has to be perceive/understand it. When the disconnect is the ability of the speaker/writer, well, that person needs to improve their communication skills. However, when the disconnect is persistent and apparently on the end of the receiver... There is precious little the speaker/writer can do to remedy the situation.

Your understanding is not necessary for something to be true. And whether you are convinced or not has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is in fact true.

There is a famous quote from Samuel Johnson when asked about Berkeley's subjective idealism. He kicked a rock and said "I disprove it thus." Reality has a way of crushing misconceptions... Like your toe on a rock.

You don't have to accept the "metaphor" of fascia. You don't have to believe anything. However, there are people who can do some pretty amazing stuff. And it is much like kicking that rock to have someone who really knows their stuff start playing with you...

So here's to kicking rocks...

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Old 10-18-2009, 01:12 AM   #156
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

As I said before, martial arts is an area that has allot of misinformation, and stuff. What is wrong with asking for the best explanation modern science can give? As I said before, if it isn't their fine. I hope to read one someday.
Nothing wrong... it just doesn't help much. There are folks who can talk all day long about a certain topic. The problem is that what they say indicates that they don't have any idea what they are talking about. They may use scientific terms, know their anatomy, etc and they still don't know what they are talking about. Dan, Mike, Rob, etc keep trying to point this out but folks don't want to put themselves in the "don't get it"category.

Then there are the folks that can do it. But many of them either cannot or will not (a matter of some debate which) explain. There are a small number of people, those on this Robert's list in particular, who can both do it and explain it. They are actively producing students who have the goods.

As far as I can see, there is an entire range of skills contained in this IT discussion. Some of these teachers can drop you on your butt and you don't feel a thing, and I mean nothing. Some of these teachers can blow you across the room without it looking like anything. Some can mess up your structure before they actually touch you. The systema folks do some stuff I have never seen anyone else do.

But as far as I can see, direct experience is crucial, meaning you have to feel it being done and then you have to feel yourself doing it. Preferably you do it on one of the folks who already has the skills because they can give you direct feedback about what you are doing which you don't want to be doing and what you are not doing which you need to be doing. One spends a lot of time with these guys feeling them do it. Angier Sensei once spent a day and a half with us doing one movement. I'd grab him and he'd drop me. He'd grab me and he'd say no, no, no, too much, too hard, that's pushing, etc. I don't think any amount of scientific understanding or explanation would help this process. Once you have gotten started, perhaps it might help you refine your training but initially I don't think its worth much.

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Old 10-18-2009, 01:24 AM   #157
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Thanks. It was helpful. I know the corpus callosum is connective tissue that aids us as well. From what I am told much of our movement is involuntary and done without conscious input. Thus, I agree, proficient Aikido requires that.

How did the Daitoryu instructor deal with this area directly noting it and it's voluntary function to enhance or play a role in technique? Where there instructions specifically dealing with the fascia, in a voluntary to get a specific result, like say as we can do with muscle like close or open our hand. But not like our heart, and other involuntary actions of our bodies. I am not looking for a result which then is labeled to be such when I referenced O'Sensei. I was more referring to him having anatomical knowledge and was able to associate the fascia to exact a result in relation to a technique.

Hope that helped.
It's not really for me to describe anything I have done in my Daito Ryu training in detail. I'm not "qualified" to speak for them. Also, instruction simply isn't done that way. Much of my understanding I have had to piece together from something my teachers have shown me, which I practice, and then I find other sources of information that help me explain what I am doing. In other words, there are a number of things I can do currently which I really do not know why it works. I am currently reading a book called The Body Has a Mind of Its Own. It's about body mapping. It has gone a long way towards helping me understand why some of what I am doing works. It has also helped me direct my training process to better refine the principles at work once I have identified them.

I seriously doubt whether O-Sensei understood anatomical structure the way we do. I think he had a vast knowledge of cause and effect, and as I said before, he certainly knew about the role of the fascia in making a center to center connection, as we would call it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:52 AM   #158
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
It's not really for me to describe anything I have done in my Daito Ryu training in detail. I'm not "qualified" to speak for them. Also, instruction simply isn't done that way. Much of my understanding I have had to piece together from something my teachers have shown me, which I practice, and then I find other sources of information that help me explain what I am doing. In other words, there are a number of things I can do currently which I really do not know why it works. I am currently reading a book called The Body Has a Mind of Its Own. It's about body mapping. It has gone a long way towards helping me understand why some of what I am doing works. It has also helped me direct my training process to better refine the principles at work once I have identified them.
Good to know. That helps me understand you statement better.

Quote:
I seriously doubt whether O-Sensei understood anatomical structure the way we do. I think he had a vast knowledge of cause and effect, and as I said before.
I too think through his writings he understood cause and effect, and that of polar opposites and their dynamics.

Quote:
he certainly knew about the role of the fascia in making a center to center connection, as we would call it.
Here is where I am confused, and here is I see it hence the confusion. The center to center connection in short is the result of body mechanics, and dynamics. This of course would include proper alinement body in relation to physics. As far as anatomy is concerned lends to what we already know about it; the skeletal muscles, tendons, and ligaments all support movement. Nervous system processes stimulus to the brain. Every part of the body works as we know it. Therefore, fascia being an anatomical membrane sheath that in an example can simply be thought of as a cellophane food wrap keeps stuff in place, packed tight. So, I go with the mainstream modern western research of the function and purpose is of the fascia.

Now I understand the metaphor of the fascia being support for a stable body, as you said. But I don't see how that consciously/ voluntarily can be manipulated to improve technique, and do more than what it is already doing. In my mind the fascia function in these terms is no different then what the skeletal structure/bones, cartilage, Plantar fascia and other tissue bands in the body.

Therefore, the metaphor of the fascia is misleading, because the fascia isn't a catch-all term for support; there are lots of other things in the body that work in greater major ways and with other things like fascia and retinacular tissues (just not lumped all together as being connective tissues as their functions and placement and size differ and serve different purposes) in the body to provide support.

It isn't in my mind a matter of you say "tomato" and I say "tomatoe." But keeping things straight, and adhering to definitions already in place that communicate established ideas. I would hate to have people think much of the misunderstanding of the subject that has already been seen. But I am not teach such things to others and choose those terms to explain, what I feel it already has more than adequate langauge to communicate it.

Now, unless there is a finding that the fascia can be manipulated to work differently and directly with technique then why create a metaphor, and say O'Sensei knew of the fascia in terms of our discussion as you note it, gives credit to something he has already did so why rename his knowledge of body mechanics, physics etc.

I think the fascia metaphor has lots of purposes for some, though it is in some ways I see it as like reinventing the wheel, rebranding and stuff, in terms of language. I ask, do we really need more dfferent ways of saying the same thing, and stuff? I don't think so, I perfer to stick with the norm.

Thanks for the discussion. I really enjoy it, even though we see things differently.
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