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Old 09-01-2009, 08:44 AM   #26
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

eagleEye<
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:23 PM   #27
rroeserr
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I was once in a university class with an exchange student who was a fighter pilot for another country.

He was very casual about what all his country's intelligence agency could do.

A young and very pretty woman in the class challenged him saying, there were limits on things, he couldn't do all that.

The guy said, "If we want, we can get a picture of you in your shower," and she shut up.

I said, "How could you do a thing like that?" I'm thinking hiding a camera in her bathroom or something. The girl just looked at me with daggers but didn't say anything else.

It finally dawned on me many years later that she shut up because he had already taken a picture of her in her shower...and he was just letting her know that..."we have ways..."

So, uh....how hard is it to get stuff off an ISP, do you really think?

That still doesn't mean they can't get in your bathroom--or get someone else in there.

Sure, I believe in the right to privacy, but to be harping on that after eight years of Bush is really way over the hill. Any sense of privacy on the internet should be practically considered a fantasy.

But the relation to death panels is that this whole thread is based on propaganda coming out of the "Tea Party" bunch, that ties up all those right-wing fear machine issues including death panel baloney, birther hype and the stockpiling of guillotines to let the goverment get rid of good patriotic right-wingers and efficiently harvest their organs (and that is not hyperbole: there are groups preaching this nutty stuff and they float on the effluence of the tea baggers):

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/74549.html

So there are honest issues about the internet, but this thread does not reflect them. This is "birther" internet paranoia.

David
They need a warrant to get into someones house, or information from a ISP. And after they got a warrant they would need to monitor activity - lot of stuff just isn't keep - it takes up to much space. Like I said before, and you seemed to ignore, you can always use encryption, SSH, or VPN.

Your argument is an inductive fallacy. You are saying because some of the people that are against this bill believe in death panels then this bill must a right wing issue. I don't believe in death panels, but I don't like this bill.

Did you actually look at some of groups opposed to the bill - like the Internet Security Alliance, or the Electronic Frontier Foundation? ISA is non-profit organization that is run out of a Cargnie Mellon, and the EFF is civil liberties group.

You believe that the Constitution gives the President the authority to take control of private networks without notifying anyone for 48 hours when he deems it necessary for national security?
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:41 PM   #28
dps
 
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
From http://www.fas.org/irp/program/proce...chelon-fox.htm

FOX NEWS NETWORK
THE EDGE WITH PAULA ZAHN
October 21, 1999, Thursday

UNKNOWN COMMENTATOR: "By some stories I've seen, up to two million communications every hour of every day, and the only basis apparently on which the government is listening in on these conversations is the computer picks up a certain key word that you don't know what it is."

From http://wiki.answers.com

/Q/What_is_the_total_number_of_bytes_on_the_internet
What is the total number of bytes on the internet?

"Finding the answer to this question is improbable. The internet is a worldwide, publicly accessible series of interconnected computer networks that transmit data by packet switching using the standard Internet Protocol (IP). It's not like there's some huge hard drive somewhere holding all of the internet's information. It's a network of smaller networks that is constantly expanding and contracting.

Example: Let's say there's exactly 1YB (yottabyte) worth of information on the internet right now. That would make it about 1,208,925,819,614,629,174,706,176 bytes. Then, let's say this post that I'm submitting is about 40KB (kilobyte). That means I just added 40,960 bytes to the internet. Now the internet has 1,208,925,819,614,629,174,747,136 bytes. That's just from this one post.

Simply put, if somebody could find out the correct answer to this question, the answer would be wrong by the time they submitted the post. In fact, they'd probably be way off."

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:34 PM   #29
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

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Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
They need a warrant to get into someones house, or information from a ISP.
Many years ago, I worked for a bank where the head of security was a former Secret Service man. He was having a little insubordination from some of the old bank investigators and he just waved them off. He told me, "I've been working with men all my life, most of them having Masters and Doctor's degrees and their job being to do things without anybody's ever finding out."

Sure they need a warrant. Unless someone at your ISP makes some kind of deal with someone. They do it with criminals, after all. Why wouldn't they do it with NSA? Over the past eight years, freedom to search has increased dramatically and the need for warrants has been pretty well shown to be easily waved off.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Like I said before, and you seemed to ignore, you can always use encryption, SSH, or VPN.
Sure. But that doesn't alter the nature of the system you're sending these signals on and how permeable it is to government. And that also doesn't affect the main point, which is that the government built it and it would be very naive to think they're not playing it like a mammoth pipe organ.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Your argument is an inductive fallacy. You are saying because some of the people that are against this bill believe in death panels then this bill must a right wing issue. I don't believe in death panels, but I don't like this bill.
Sure. And where did you first learn about this bill? Think carefully.

I'll bet it was something that will finally trace back to some right wing source or the tea-baggers or Lyndon Larouche. And they also "frame" the presentation of the matter in a way that typically highly distorts the facts, just as they have done with "death panels" in the health care debate.

The point is not to debate, but to crush and smother debate with wave after wave of misrepresentation and outright lies. The point is not to present real, useful information but to stir up hate and anger, even at the expense of the stability and safety of this nation. This is stuff those right-wingers would have killed for if Bush had implemented it.

Here's the real reason for this thread:

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/pat-oliphant

I haven't read the bill and I'm not too concerned because the net is already full of holes and the holes are already full of spies. And some control is definitely necessary to interecpt terrorist use of the net and to prevent remote manipulation of electrical generation, nuclear power plants, government agencies, and the like.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
You believe that the Constitution gives the President the authority to take control of private networks without notifying anyone for 48 hours when he deems it necessary for national security?
I have no doubt that the President has long had the authority to shut down pretty much anything he wants if he has reasons. I mean, local cops can take you off the street and effectively disappear you, at least for awhile, for almost nothing. Feds can seriously disappear you. They interned the Japanese in WWII. Don't just wishfully limit the feds because they're going to do what they're going to do, regardless of how we feel about it, at least under certain circumstances. Don't forget, Cheney was ready to shoot down Flight 93 on 9/11...

They didn't build this world-spanning intelligence machine so that it could slip beyond their grasp. Don't believe that for a second. Right or wrong, like it or not, US spooks are the ghost in the machine.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:15 AM   #30
DonMagee
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

So, just for the record, AT&T can't get the fact they are launching a new product a secret until launch date, yet they can keep a massive spook conspiracy to undermine our privacy a secret?

Oh wait, they failed at that too http://www.eff.org/cases/att

The fact is there are no great conspiracies. Sure maybe for a few years you can keep something under wraps, but eventually it always leaks out. Everyone loves to brag.

Everyone has a wife who would post pictures of your beach house vacation on facebook when your the head of MI6 and your identity is top secret. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle6644199.ece

So if the government has some kind of super secret internet spy machine, we would know about it. I've worked in telecom from the age of 16. I've worked on the router/switch/server level for years. I never been told to install any kind of backdoor agents on the equipment under my control.

The silliness of this is that a good portion of the internet isn't even in the US. The only good use for this bill is to prevent the American people from getting information from or two the rest of the world. It would not stop terrorists (who use more common means of passing information anyway), and it doesn't not protect the government from attack (They could just unhook themselves from the net and leave me up).

Any kind of government shutting down the internet in the US is for one purpose only, to prevent americans from getting information. Are they going to shut down throw away cell phone calls overseas? Are they going to stop payphone calls overseas? What about mail? Personal ads in newspapers.

This is either a feel good measure to get people to think we are protecting them, or a way for the government to have legal right (which is different from being able to do it) to take away freedom.

Which is a good point to make. To everyone who says "Well the government can already do it, so who cares", I want you to stop and think about all the things the government can already do. They can gas a town with mustard gas. Drop bombs and nukes, pick you up on the street and beat you half to death and leave you in the gutter. Would you be ok with a bill that said it was ok for the government to kill the children of 'terrorists' inside the US without any legal checking? I mean they can do it now right? The NSA/CIA could just swoop in and kill the babies of suspected terrorists. In any case, why have laws at all, why have elections at all, let's just find our chairman Mao and be done with it already.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:23 AM   #31
lbb
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

I"m with Don. I live in a small town, and my little general store doesn't have enough aluminum foil to make hats for the conspiracies being advanced in this thread.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:41 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Mary, you always come up with such priceless quotes...Maybe I'll change my sig to that, with your permission.
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:25 AM   #33
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
So, just for the record, AT&T can't get the fact they are launching a new product a secret until launch date, yet they can keep a massive spook conspiracy to undermine our privacy a secret?
It's simply a fact that the US government created the internet. It seems odd to me that everyone here wants to assert that the government has very limited access to the system it created yet there is such fear the the US government is going to shut it down if they want to.

Which is it?

If they don't have the power to control it, then where's the concern that they can shut it down?

The fact is, the created this worldwide system and they play it like a piano. Whatever we think we know about it, the CIA and NSA know a thousand times more. Call it a conspiracy but it's not: it's the US government running its intelligence programs and if for some reason, anyone believes that the internet is the one and only place they're "not" running those programs, I'm simply telling you it's not. The internet is permeated with NSA/CIA activity. So it's not a conspiracy, at all. It's the US government doing what it does.

So look once more at this double negative idea y'all are espousing: the government really has no control over the internet...yet they're going to shut it down....

I'm just saying yes they can shut it down because yes they built it and yes they have a lot of control over it. It was never anything but a spy trap after it went public.

I'm not saying it "ought to" be that way. That's just how it is, regardless of what any ordinary American citizen might believe.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:42 PM   #34
dps
 
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

If they already control it and can shut it down whenever they feel like it then..... why are they seeking legislation to control it and shut it down whenever they feel like it?

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 09-05-2009, 01:14 PM   #35
David Orange
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Re: Bill would give president emergency control of Internet

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If they already control it and can shut it down whenever they feel like it then..... why are they seeking legislation to control it and shut it down whenever they feel like it? confused
So folks like you will be even more confused.

Good luck with that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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