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03-16-2006, 12:04 PM
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#26
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
All of the techniques are important to the system, as a whole. Of coarse beginners are going to be terrible at weapons, they will also be terrible at tai no henko, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be doing it, the only way you can get better is to train. I know a teacher who didn't teach free practice Jiyu waza until 1st kyu, then he had a bunch of students ready to become shodan's, and they were all horrible at free movement, he was shocked and upset. But the reason this happened is because he didn't think they should be practicing such an advanced practice till later, and he thought they would just be good at free practice over night once they became black belts! needless to say, he had to put in lots of effort with these guys to get their jiyu waza skills up to par, and he now trains Jiyu waza from the beginning, and his students are much better now.
Leaving out part of the training just makes your students lag in their training.
-Chris
p.s. My earlier comment is not saying that weapons makes your empty hand body movement better, I'm saying that there is no empty hand movement in Aikido, it's and armed system.
Last edited by ChrisHein : 03-16-2006 at 12:07 PM.
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03-16-2006, 02:09 PM
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#27
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.
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Why not? Because it's more important to teach them more simple things at first? Or is there another reason?
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03-17-2006, 09:15 AM
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#28
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Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.
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What level do you suggest tachi dori, jo dori, jo waza etc etc are done? Nidan? Sandan? Yondan...
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They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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03-18-2006, 05:16 AM
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#29
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
John Chapman wrote:
I agree with all of this. It most definitely does improve the body movement. Moving the arms but not the shoulders means moving from the centre, ie the pelvis. Tension in the arms is felt in the belly rather than the shoulders. Using your empty hands as if they were connected by the handle of a sword promotes the movement from your centre. Without this feeling the arms move independently and the tension is then felt in the shoulders. Try it, it's almost magical.
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so i must originate my movement from my center (pelvis) while executing the technique, and with the same breathing sequence enter inhale then throw exhale right??
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03-18-2006, 07:48 AM
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#30
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Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Sounds good to me!
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Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
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03-18-2006, 10:22 AM
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#31
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Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.
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03-18-2006, 01:21 PM
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#32
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.
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probably the best advice given to date.
-Chris
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03-19-2006, 08:57 PM
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#33
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
I am relatively new to Aikido, but I remember hearing - when training with a bokken, move as is empty handed. When training empty handed move as if you were handling a bokken. Weapons training has helped me understand Aikido greatly. My Sensei (Gleason Sensei) is a great advocate of weapons training early on. He actually has a video that will be available to the general public shortly that is great in explaining and showing the relation between taijutsu and kenjutsu.
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03-20-2006, 09:02 AM
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#34
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Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Gabriella Wrigholm wrote:
Why not? Because it's more important to teach them more simple things at first?
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Yes.
And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
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03-20-2006, 09:06 AM
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#35
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Location: Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 177
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Karim., stop worrying about when to breathe and making things more difficult for yourself. Just keep training, it WILL come to you.
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But don't do "reverse" breathing.
If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
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03-20-2006, 10:28 AM
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#36
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Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 470
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
But don't do "reverse" breathing.
If you don't train breathing, you have more than 50% that it NEVER come to you.
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Wonderful Roosevelt,
I always thought that less than 20% of all aikidoka would ever get IT. So maybe we are better off, if we do not train breathing
Regards Dirk
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03-20-2006, 10:44 AM
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#37
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Yes.
And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
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Good point. But people probably can't on higher levels either but we still practice it.
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03-20-2006, 10:44 AM
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#38
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Yes.
And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
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This is a question we should really be trying to find an answer too. I wish the Aikido community at large would stop arguing about : magic powers, historical facts, pseudo intellectualism, pseudo spiritualism, fantasy/roll playing, and other trivial bits, and instead try and figure out if a black belt could really stop a guy with a sword. This of coarse is my wish, and of coarse the goal of stopping a man with a sword is kind of a trivial bit if you think about it.
-Chris
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03-20-2006, 12:10 PM
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#39
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Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 522
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
On Saturday I spent an hour of class trying to improve my forward rolls by rolling and rolling (and working with some kids trying to do the same), and then an hour of class trying to improve them by rolling with a weapon (jo, then bokken) in hand. Wow! I felt a lot less stuck after the second hour. The big piece of wood really spotlights certain deficiencies.
Mary Kaye
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03-20-2006, 01:13 PM
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#40
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Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
In FMA we start with weapons and later the hands.
IMHO, since Aikido comes from ken-jutsu, it halps make sense of why we move the way we do.
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Yeah the movements are practically the same for stick, knife and hand.
Aikido mainly comes from Daito Ryu jujistu iirc, of course jj was (is) the empty handed compliment to kenjutsu, etc.
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03-20-2006, 06:56 PM
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#41
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
of course jj was (is) the empty handed compliment to kenjutsu, etc.
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That's not a true statement. Jiu jutsu is the study of the principal of Jiu, it can be taught (and is taught) with and without weapons.
-Chris Hein
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03-21-2006, 04:23 AM
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#42
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Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
And do you know any black belt who can really defence himself against a guy with a real sword?
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Yes. but the question is a bit vague, and may I add a bit pointless.
Is the guy with a real sword:-
1/ Trained as a swordsman, or just a guy that happens to have picked one up?
2/ is it in a training environment or does the the guy actually intend to commit serious harm?
There are many thousands of aikido blackbelts around the world, some/many would I'm sure completely chicken out if faced with a real sword in a non training off the mat situation. And I am sure there are some, who would quietly go about the business of disarming the sword wielder.
We cannot train for 'real' with live weapons, by that I don't mean we can't train with live weapons, just that the intent to kill is not a training option, so we never actually know what this is like until we come face to face with someone intent on killing. The chances are a non trained swordsman would choose a different weapon, probably a gun, a trained swordsman would probably have enough self control to not want to kill in the first place.
Just a few thoughts FWIW.
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Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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03-21-2006, 05:05 AM
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#43
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Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
I'd chicken out...
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They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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03-21-2006, 05:47 AM
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#44
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Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
I'd chicken out...
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What if you had no choice? Would you then 'chicken in'?
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Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
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03-21-2006, 05:51 AM
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#45
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Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
I'd pick up the biggest, heaviest household implement I could find and go apesh*t.
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They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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03-21-2006, 05:56 AM
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#46
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Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
I'd pick up the biggest, heaviest household implement I could find and go apesh*t.
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Then the question becomes:- Could an aikido black belt cope with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t??
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Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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03-21-2006, 05:59 AM
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#47
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Dojo: Prince Bishops Durham/ White Rose
Location: Durham (north east England)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
I see, so you expect to be attacked by a sword-weilding maniac in a domestic environment. Interesting.
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Grab my arm.....The other arm.....MY other arm
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03-21-2006, 06:05 AM
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#48
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Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
the trick here is to cry like a baby, cry so hard and so loud that they turn away in disgust.....then its time to kick some back
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"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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03-21-2006, 06:08 AM
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#49
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Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
Offline
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Well, not really, but its not too far out of the question is it? My house is arguably a domestic environment (some would say no, but thats another story), it has two swords in it. All we need is the maniac to get a hold of one of them and bobs your uncle...
Quote:
Then the question becomes:- Could an aikido black belt cope with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t??
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"Some aikidoka would prefer to deal with a guy with a heavy household implement going apesh*t this way. Now thats not wrong, but I like to do it this way..."
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They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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03-21-2006, 02:47 PM
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#50
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Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
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Re: weapon training for lower ranks
Back to topic a little bit, that is if we are done with sword wielding maniacs locked in mortal combat with guys going apesh!t with heavy household appliances. LOL
We did some weapons work today in class and afterwords I talked with Sensei about it and he said that we use weapons with beginners because it helps reinforce the footwork and changing hanmi smoothly. He stated weapons work, specifically jo, also helps with the hand techniques but at lower ranks it is more for footwork than anything else.
Just another .02 in the bucket.
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Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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