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10-25-2010, 12:05 PM
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#26
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
The role of the uke is to enhance the learning of the nage. the uke is a partner, not an opponent. To this end uke needs to deliver an attack that has content and maintain his structure as best he can. If he or she has that structure compromised, they should recover as quickly as possible. If recovery isn't possible, they should be taking the Fall.
It is a mistaken idea that uke should be trying to stop the partner if possible, that this is somehow the more martial way of practicing. Uke and nage are BOTH training. They are training to do the same thing. So if uke decides to dispute the space with nage and then as nage he is supposed to be learning not to do this, the body and mind just get confused. Uke and nage should be doing the same thing in each role, namely staying connected and relaxed.
On the other hand, it's probably worse for nage to have people tanking for him. If the uke is colluding, no one has any idea at all whether something is really working or not. Also, all of the energetic cues nage keys off on are wrong and energetically false. It not only isn't beneficial to train with ukes who are tanking but it's actually detrimental.
A good uke's job is to force nage to do the technique properly. He is not there to stop the technique and he isn't there to collude. A great uke sees what ukemi the Sensei got when he demonstrated and then attempts to give his partner exactly the same ukemi that Sensei just got fro his uke. If he is good at this, the technique that is natural and logical from the attack will be the same technique that was demonstrated. Too many folks think their job is to screw up the technique, when of course, they already know what's coming. That's silly and has nothing to do with good martial arts. In a real confrontation, you have no idea what's coming.
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10-25-2010, 12:15 PM
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#27
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Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
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Re: Being a good uke.
Thank you for the above - great post on uke's role!
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Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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10-25-2010, 12:30 PM
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#28
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
A good uke's job is to force nage to do the technique properly. He is not there to stop the technique and he isn't there to collude.
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What do you suggest to force nage to do the technique properly without stopping nage when he/she is doing the technique wrong.
If nage's technique is wrong uke's structure and balance haven't been taken, or have been recovered. Then the waza stops.
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10-25-2010, 12:32 PM
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#29
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Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
more great reading about ukemi from one of my sempai:
http://www.aikiweb.com/training/tomoleoni1.html
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practice hard
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10-25-2010, 01:09 PM
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#30
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Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Dave Plaza wrote:
OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.
A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.
So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...
Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...
Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..
So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.
Many thanks
Dave
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Don't bother with videos. If your instructor can't do the ukemi, you won't be able to ether. Ask him/her for help, and if that doesn't work, go train under someone else.
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10-25-2010, 01:58 PM
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#31
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Dojo: Aikido of Hilo
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Donovan Waite's " Meeting the Mat" video is one of the best.
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10-25-2010, 02:02 PM
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#32
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Ryan Szesny wrote:
Don't bother with videos. If your instructor can't do the ukemi, you won't be able to ether. Ask him/her for help, and if that doesn't work, go train under someone else.
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I think sometimes books and videos are helpful... but I agree; if you train under a Sensei for so many years and can't do it right still, what video or book can help you?
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MM
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10-25-2010, 02:28 PM
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#33
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
What do you suggest to force nage to do the technique properly without stopping nage when he/she is doing the technique wrong.
If nage's technique is wrong uke's structure and balance haven't been taken, or have been recovered. Then the waza stops.
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I am not saying that if nage makes a mistake, like pushing or pulling, tensing up, etc. that I fall down. If nage hits my structure the technique stops dead (with lower level people; wit seniors I revers them). But I do not train with the intention of stopping them. I train with the intention to connect to their center. If it's a strike, I am really striking. If it's a grab, it is a grab that is capable of moving their center. I maintain my alignment and structure throughout, if possible. So if the technique stops, it is because the partner ran into my structure, not because I tried to stop him. No one ever won a fight by stopping the other guys movement, you have to be able to take the other guys center.
My rule of thumb is that uke should never do anything with his body that doesn't make sense martially. So tensing up and hunkering down, which so many think is good training is really the opposite. When I see these fellows at a seminar I am teaching I will call them up for ukemi. I then place my hand on their outstretched arm and tell them to make themselves immovable. I then smack the guy upside the head with my hand. Then I say, protect yourself... when he moves to protect himself, I tell him no, be immovable. Even the biggest dope pretty quickly figures out that he can only do one of those things. The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.
Now the internal power guys can be quite difficult to move without tensing up. That's a different matter. They simply have a very strong and integrated structure. They can be just about un-throwable and still be relaxed. But they are not doing anything in their role that compromises their freedom to respond or move as needed by the situation. So, once again, it has to do with ones intention. It is not the uke's intention to stop nage. It is his intention to maintain proper alignment and structure and stay connected with nage so that his attack can effect nage. The instant that ability is compromised, ukemi should happen immediately because his position is then untenable.
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10-25-2010, 03:41 PM
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#34
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I
The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.
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Our teacher is always showing that, he is as good uke even with a brand new one
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10-26-2010, 02:29 AM
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#35
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Dojo: Aikido Netzwerk
Location: Düsseldorf, NRW
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 80
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I am not saying that if nage makes a mistake, like pushing or pulling, tensing up, etc. that I fall down. If nage hits my structure the technique stops dead (with lower level people; wit seniors I revers them). But I do not train with the intention of stopping them. I train with the intention to connect to their center. If it's a strike, I am really striking. If it's a grab, it is a grab that is capable of moving their center. I maintain my alignment and structure throughout, if possible. So if the technique stops, it is because the partner ran into my structure, not because I tried to stop him. No one ever won a fight by stopping the other guys movement, you have to be able to take the other guys center.
My rule of thumb is that uke should never do anything with his body that doesn't make sense martially. So tensing up and hunkering down, which so many think is good training is really the opposite. When I see these fellows at a seminar I am teaching I will call them up for ukemi. I then place my hand on their outstretched arm and tell them to make themselves immovable. I then smack the guy upside the head with my hand. Then I say, protect yourself... when he moves to protect himself, I tell him no, be immovable. Even the biggest dope pretty quickly figures out that he can only do one of those things. The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.
Now the internal power guys can be quite difficult to move without tensing up. That's a different matter. They simply have a very strong and integrated structure. They can be just about un-throwable and still be relaxed. But they are not doing anything in their role that compromises their freedom to respond or move as needed by the situation. So, once again, it has to do with ones intention. It is not the uke's intention to stop nage. It is his intention to maintain proper alignment and structure and stay connected with nage so that his attack can effect nage. The instant that ability is compromised, ukemi should happen immediately because his position is then untenable.
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Great post! I completely agree!
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11-30-2010, 08:57 AM
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#36
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Dave,
I can tell you only what is my personal idea of a good uke - no claim to setting any universal standard on my part: just the type of uke _I_ find useful.
My ideal uke is twofold - when I learn, he is just passive but does nothing to make things easier for me.
When I _think_ I am ready for some action witb that technique, my ideal uke attacks me without any regard for me - s/he must not matter if I get a big slap on my face, s/he must not matter if i can't tenkan fast enough and s/he pushes me on the ground, s/he must aim directly at me with weapons and not at my sides, s/he must remeber s/he has two arms and use both.
In turn, I will not project him/her. I will just go till I get a grab and i am completing 80/85% of the technique.
So, to me, a good uke is the one who makes me this favour: fight me like a guy who wants to hit me and maul me badly in the street would do. Anything that falls short of this, is working against my hopes of developing an _effective_ aikido and deluding me into the certainty that I could cope with a real attacker when in reality I can't.
The good uke, my good uke, is the one against whom my techniques would most likely fail and that sends me home frustrated and with a deep sense of my inadequacy against a determined adversary.
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11-30-2010, 06:19 PM
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#37
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Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 94
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Dave Plaza wrote:
OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.
A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.
So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...
Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...
Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..
So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.
Many thanks
Dave
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No videos to recommend here, but just like to share my view.
In my opinion, Uke's primary role in Aikido training is not so much to take a fall without injuring himself. I believe the Aikido Uke's primary role is to be a source of reassurance to Tori that Aiki is felt in his technique (right up to the final release).
So based on this understanding of Uke's role, it all depends on how Tori delivers his Aiki (the speed, angle, timing & power of the dynamics).
For example, if Tori's angle of his final release is directly forward in nature, Uke would have to take a step or two forward first before taking a roll. But if Tori's angle of his final release is steeply downwards, Uke would have to do an immediate tuck downwards and take a roll.
Uke's style of ukemi all depends on how Tori executes his techniques. And Uke must determine his ukemi by "feeling" Tori.
There no ideal style of ukemi except for the one which "feels" Tori & blends with him.
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12-03-2010, 08:25 AM
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#38
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
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12-04-2010, 02:51 AM
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#39
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Location: Brisbane, Qld
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Patrick Fitzpatrick wrote:
You know now that I've looked at that video a few times, I'm convinced that it's clever camera trick, where it's actually a backwards fall played in reverse. (based on the way the hakama seems to slide up his legs). The rest of the video is then in normal forward motion. The sound was all messed up for me so I couldn't based on that.
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Hi Patrick, the video is actually just forward and backwards rolling played in reverse. We made it because we were playing around and wanted to see/show how similar the two movements are. So each forward roll is one of us rolling backwards and visa versa. Just for the record, we didn't mean for it to be misleading or pretending it is something it's not, it's just mucking around. Cool to hear you liked it.
Cheers,
Paul
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12-04-2010, 07:05 PM
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#40
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Gary Petrison wrote:
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...that's copy righted. >_<
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MM
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12-21-2010, 02:26 PM
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#41
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Location: California
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 48
Offline
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Re: Being a good uke.
Quote:
Paul Crawley wrote:
Hi Patrick, the video is actually just forward and backwards rolling played in reverse. We made it because we were playing around and wanted to see/show how similar the two movements are. So each forward roll is one of us rolling backwards and visa versa. Just for the record, we didn't mean for it to be misleading or pretending it is something it's not, it's just mucking around. Cool to hear you liked it.
Cheers,
Paul
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It certainly worked, I found it hard to see who was going forward and who was going backward without looking at it a few times.
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