Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2008, 04:38 PM   #1
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
...regarding someone with love during attack is not spiritual, then what is?
At first sight upon reading the quote doesn't make sense to most anyone walking on the mat for the first time. Attack isn't normally associated with love. Have you ever heard someone say I am going to attack you with love? Love isn't thought of as spiritual very often when attacking. Turning the other cheek makes a whole lot more sense to many more than attacking with love being an act of spirituality.

Aikido's spirituality is unique. It is full of seemingly contradictions of vague poetic verses. A spirituality that may have never been intended to be followed verbatim, or standardize form as other religions are. There is no congreation etc.

Because of Aikido's unique spirituality that may in other instances lose all spiritual credibility because of it's conventional spiritual disconnections and at first glance what seems to be contradictions. Yet, it hasn't. Other religions have lost credibility for less.

Aikido students number the millions around the world, and are very dedicated to it and the spirituality as new students continue to join.

I feel that the power of those attracted to Aikido is in it's spirituality first then technique. That those seeking the spiritual element embrace for any number of reasons the seemingly disconnected spirituality. that is what is attractive, gives Aikido spirituality the mystique of the east, and it's individuality. And that Aikido spirituality isn't as dense or layered as well known religions. Aikido spirituality doesn't have all those complex arguments of existence and the dimensions of God, why are we here and all those classic thoughts.

I think this says allot about people. By attacking with love is a spiritual act may not be understood instantly, but neither are people and that is what makes Aikido spiritual in one way; intended or not.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2008, 11:03 PM   #2
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Attack with love? Why not? We kill with love sometimes too, no? We kill suffering animals and sometimes people---including criminals, loved ones, would-be children, and even ourselves---with the best of intentions. People beat the shit out of each other in striking arts all of the time without their spirituality suffering for it---and with some of the same end goals as those we hold in aikido.

So, what makes you say, "Aikido's spirituality is unique"?

But moving past there for a moment, with specific regard to what "attacking with love" means to Aikido:

I can attack with love. I can attack with lust. I can attack with hate. I can attack with apprehension, fearful of unfamiliar or difficult ukemi. I can attack in a way so as to impress my peers or the instructor. I can attack in such a way as to thwart nage. I can even attack thinking, "Mmmmm... I LOVE COOKIES!!!" too.

Why not?

Because it's contrary to our training. That's why not.

Attacking or defending with anything in mind defeats the usual objectives of mushin, zanshin, takemusu, and their ilk. That warning would sensibly apply both to nage and to uke.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 07:56 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I had learned that warriors don't attack because they hate the enemy, but because they love the people they are protecting.

I also heard that if you attack with the intent of helping another see the errors of their way, rather than ego control or fear, then the attack come from a good place.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 09:11 AM   #4
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

"You don't cut the man. You cut the devil out of his Kharma."
-Terry Dobson

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2008, 09:18 AM   #5
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I had learned that warriors don't attack because they hate the enemy, but because they love the people they are protecting.
In my experience, a true warrior's circumstances put him in the situations to use his skills, but his skills operate without mind according to his training in the moment.

Love of right and justice may have a person train to become a police officer; the sense of duty may have him respond to a call; but, those things should not be on his mind when he draws and pulls the trigger of his service weapon.

Quote:
I also heard that if you attack with the intent of helping another see the errors of their way, rather than ego control or fear, then the attack come from a good place.
Tomás de Torquemada?

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2008, 05:11 AM   #6
KamiKaze_Evolution
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 125
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Both yes and not, love concept is actually available in scholar teaching beside spiritual and love is actually wider than human's thinking not only relationship.

KamiKaze
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 11:07 AM   #7
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 434
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I agree with Joe.

Torquemada!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 11:32 AM   #8
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

What if love doesn't mean for Osensei what it means for us?

(Harmony certainly doesn't...)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 12:49 PM   #9
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I can only answer for myself but the belief "Budo is Love" is the main thing that compels me to continue trudging the path of happy destiny up the mountain.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2008, 02:02 PM   #10
woodyard
Dojo: Hombu
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2
Japan
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Aikido means many different things to many different people. In my forty years on this planet I have never once been involved in a physical altercation. Could it happen...maybe, do I train to prepare for this possibility, absolutely not. We all train for our own reasons but most of us live in countries that have evolved beyond the primal fight or flight reaction. So, in real life, the question in most cases is moot.

On the mat however...does one attack with love? What's your definition of love? My feeling is that you shouldn't be thinking about anything other than the movement when you're on the mat. By doing this you incorporate the piece of yourself that you're about to share with your partner into your movement. Isn't that what art is? Martial arts are no different. It's an expression of who you are. We've all trained with people and felt a special connection and we've also trained with people who rub us wrong or even where we felt no connection at all. Is one of these partners better than the other...I don't think so. Every time I train I express some different element of myself. Sometimes it feels good sometimes not. But what matters to me is that I'm connecting with myself and my partner and learning from it.

But most of the time I have no idea what I'm doing anyway...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 07:07 AM   #11
judojo
 
judojo's Avatar
Dojo: Ju Dojo
Location: 349 MALVAR STREET, DIPOLOG CITY, 7100, ZDN, PHILIPPINES
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Philippines
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Dear Senseis, I know little of Ai but it is just the Love because the this is more on Mukuso or the charity in the in the religion of christianity. The churches always emphasize the flower of the fellowship. Reynaldo L. Albańo

REYNALDO L. ALBAŃO
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2008, 10:57 AM   #12
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I took that quote that started this thread from someone else. It gave me the sense that if I was a newbie to Aikido that I might put it into my own context automatically. Instead of, perhaps, putting the meaning off until I learned more.

Keeping with that thought, I think Aikido is a wonderful thing. It is really a unique experience. I like the whole idea that when (suppose to, it doesn't always happen) that when you get on the mat and train the people are not out to hurt you. They are friendly and don't bully, haze, harass, and try and attempt to break you mentally and physically, kind of like a bootcamp etc. -well they aren't suppose too.

You can walk on the mat and not feel it is some kind of pseudo boot-camp where you will be turned into a fighting machine. But instead, you can train in an atmosphere much like a recreational sport to that of an exercise group to your liking.

I think that is the spirit of Aikido, I hope am right.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2008, 01:20 PM   #13
Harm-ony
Dojo: Unisba Aikido Club
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 35
Indonesia
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

the spirit of 'love' attitude, not no destruct anything, just caring....
and 'acceptance' attitude in training....
to help us in 'relaxing' ourselves...
maybe...

Peace and Love,

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2008, 03:10 PM   #14
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Dali Lama on Compassion. A very interesting read. Please read down through the interview toward the end on his comments on war and violence.

http://www.spiritsound.com/bhikshu.html

I tend to prefer to use the word Compassion vice Love as I think Compassion has deeper meaning when we talk about what it is we do (or try to) in Aikido.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2009, 04:35 AM   #15
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
By attacking with love is a spiritual act may not be understood instantly, but neither are people and that is what makes Aikido spiritual in one way; intended or not.
I wonder if dishonest and uncoordinated attacks are love? Are pulled punches full of love? Is a shomenuchi that swipes the side of the head - rather than cutting through the center - offering something that's "true" to nage?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 11:08 PM   #16
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I don't think of "attacking with love" as meaning that I experience the emotion of love while attacking or directed at my partner. I think of it as giving the best, most sincere and in the moment attack that I can at the time. This action is a manifestation of love.
YMMV.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2009, 07:49 AM   #17
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
I wonder if dishonest and uncoordinated attacks are love? Are pulled punches full of love? Is a shomenuchi that swipes the side of the head - rather than cutting through the center - offering something that's "true" to nage?
Being OT, I really think, it is more like this.

I think there is confusion with the word "love" which really IMO is to mean mercy instead of our western definition or concept of love (noun or verb).

The idea of mercy comes from traditional Japanese ethics that is in the Hagakure and is the 4th line in the Bushido oath: We shall have mercy upon others and do good to them. Mercy is a much better word. Perhaps, love is used it seems to be a langauge translation issue or lack of western philosophical education, or both. Maybe to O'Sensei not killing someone was, when translated to westerners, was love. At any rate it makes more sense and accuracy to use the idea of mercy. Love is so complicated as it is.

O'Sensei if he was a martial artist subscribed Japanese ethics and stuff. It was not obscure stuff, it was as common to him and all Japanese as the Golden Rule or what a Good Samaritan is too us.

I think not beating the stuffing out of your fellow students or trying to cripple them during training may fall under mercy thus appropriate training. And is what the new Japanese arts like Aikido, Judo, Karate etc. where trying to achieve as part of Japan's reforming it's self from feudal to civil. I strongly feel they where trying to do the same. Which I think translates to how our sports started such as gymnastics starting as warrior training to sports competition.

Within each person and dojo, there is a range of training and individual choices made in the intensity of training and training philosophy. Not always is there a match. But, there is I think a limit. I think you have to take training along the same lines as training in a sport. You have to be serious about it. You have to see it simply and honestly it for what it is, and not as something you want it to be or would like it to be. It isn't a fanciful romp in a field of daisy having a gentle breeze blow threw your hair and hakama. I don't think it is a bone crushing, blood squirting, flesh searing, Quentin Tarantino Smack Down orgy either. IMO, it is a Japanese sport and falls along the lines of, originating as, being and having a Japanese minded approached to modern sport. That would be to give 110% into it. IMMHAO.

If Aikido was about "love".... never mind I won't go there.

Last edited by Buck : 02-24-2009 at 07:53 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2009, 07:55 AM   #18
Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 950
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Acronym Defined that I used: In My Most Humble Aikido Opinion. Or I just got happy making key strokes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2009, 10:18 AM   #19
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,276
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I'm not sure I'm reading the meanings correctly, but I get the sense that some folks have equated the idea of "attacking with love" as simply doing your best, and that doesn't seem to fit with my take on things. I think of that as sincerity. To me the love aspect of Aikido has to do with being other-regarding, regardless of the other. Situations dictate different responses (my loving action may still conceivably end an attacker's life), but what matters here is that our actions are shaped by a sense of concern for everyone, even those who wish us harm. It is too easy to write off those who cause us pain and to dismiss their value...in my opinion.
As for whether or not it's spiritual...I'll take the easy answer: "maybe."

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2009, 11:31 AM   #20
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

I dont know as though I am sold on this, "attack with love," thing. I am familar with several references to warriors acting with compassion, which could include physical attacks. As part of my training, I seek to learn compassion for my enemy to help better judge my opponent. Compassion is what helps us see the other side of the story. Compassion is what directs my technique to either break my opponent or pin my opponent. Compassion is a critical component to learning how to resolve conflict, i.e. "what does my enemy want?"

For example, a warrior acting with compassion could assist another to commit sepuku, the resulting blow killing an individual. Or, a warrior acting with compassion could stay a killing blow while fighting a drunk person incapable of harming the warrior. Both of these examples demonstrate compassion from a warrior choosing how best to act in a situation.

"Living the Martial Way" is a great book that talks about similar concepts like honor and compassion. It's a great read for aikido people even though it is not an aikido book.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2009, 03:12 PM   #21
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I'm reading the meanings correctly, but I get the sense that some folks have equated the idea of "attacking with love" as simply doing your best, and that doesn't seem to fit with my take on things. I think of that as sincerity
Matthew, I know I did write something like that but what I wrote, or meant to, was that it attacking that way is a MANIFESTATION of love. What I mean is, an outward demonstration of being willing to engage fully and with an open heart. Which to me IS a part of love.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2009, 02:13 PM   #22
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,276
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Matthew, I know I did write something like that but what I wrote, or meant to, was that it attacking that way is a MANIFESTATION of love. What I mean is, an outward demonstration of being willing to engage fully and with an open heart. Which to me IS a part of love.
Hi Janet,
I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2009, 02:16 PM   #23
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,276
United_States
Offline
Re: Using love is it or isn't spiritual?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I dont know as though I am sold on this, "attack with love," thing.
How so? I see what you're saying about acting with compassion, but what makes the difference between compassion and love to your mind?

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 80 06-10-2022 08:32 AM
What Is Love, Aikido Style Buck Spiritual 32 03-07-2009 06:24 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 06:45 AM
Banyu Aigo R.A. Robertson Columns 3 12-05-2007 09:25 AM
Ki and Technique... Ascendedskater25 Spiritual 58 03-20-2006 06:02 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:48 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate