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Old 02-19-2018, 12:14 PM   #51
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Iwama people are quit keen in keeping the old way of performing techniques alive.
And of course there are many other people who care about how Ueshiba perfomed techniques, my teacher for example points out, if there is a difference between what he does and how O Sensei did it. If there is, it is for a good reason.

They point is that the punching techniques were not junked by Ueshiba, he performed atemi-techniques his whole live.
Indeed I never saw him kicking, but that is because he said that both feet belong on the ground.
Depends on the situation, a comment from a Daito ryu group on one of O'Sensei's challenge matches:

Igor-san, I cannot present You the source right now, but I've heard that story in 1990-ties (where Internet was not developed yet so publicly), the content was more-less like that:
once one Japanese guy challenged UESHIBA Morihei for a fight, and UESHIBA has agreed. When that guy started to prepair his best stance for the fight, UESHIBA said "OK, attack me, I'm ready" and was just standing and looking on him. The guy said, "Please, prepair yourself for the fight, I cannot attack You because You're standing totally unprotected!" - but Ueshiba did nothing and had not changed his position. The guy asked again, "Please, don't stand like that, because it is actually too much dangerous for to be attacked", but Ueshiba did nothing again. Finally after the 3rd such a request, Ueshiba has kicked his balls and came away.


Also some of his prewar students have been said to have used kicks like Rinjiro Shirata - "His atemi (including kicks) came out of nowhere, perfectly timed and dead-on." from: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22687

and Minoru Mochizuki:

"When Tadashi Abe traveled he always carried a knife with him, this was not for his own protection, he carried it to hand to his shocked opponent, he would say "please, this is for you". Abe said that an opponent with his bare fists was no challenge, a man with a knife was "very interesting".

"According to Minoru Mochizuki...:

There was a man named Tadashi Abe who passed away recently. I had the following encounter with him when I visited the Iwama dojo to greet O-Sensei after my return to Japan when the war ended. O-Sensei was pleased to know that I had come back safely and welcomed me warmly. I stayed there over night. That night an evil-looking man with a monk-like hairstyle came to the room where I was staying and asked permission to come in. When I gave him permission this man came in.

"My name is Tadashi Abe. Sensei, could I ask you a direct question?". I told him to ask me anything. He asked if I was really studying aiki jujutsu seriously. At that time the art was not yet called aikido. When I replied I was, he said:

"Ace you really? I have heard about you, Sensei, for a long time. I heard that you have had experience in actual fighting situations. I think it is strange that a person like you feels satisfied with an art like aiki jujutsu." When I asked why he thought so he said that Ueshiba Sensei or Mr. Morhiro Saito would not be able to stand against him in a match even for three minutes because he would defeat them with one blow.

"You're quite boastful, aren't you?", I replied. "You feel confident that you can defeat Ueshiba Sensei?", I added. He said that he thought it would be easy for him to defeat Sensei and added:

"Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

I replied as follows:

"I have been in many street-fights but I wouldn't include them in the category of actual fighting. I have also drawn a sword and stormed the enemy camp."

Then he asked me whether or not aikido was really useful for fighting. When I replied that aikido was very useful not only for fights but also in times of war, he said my answer didn't convince him. So I suggested that he attack me and stood there telling him to come anyway he wanted. He asked me to adopt a ready stance. I told him:

"Don't say unnecessary things. There is no way for someone to defeat his enemy if he tells him what to do. Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange... You have openings everywhere..." Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

"How can a person like you who faints when he catches a little kick last in a fight?"

"Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?"

"You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war... an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word 'aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called 'aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki." "Is that so... I think I understand." "If you still don't understand, come to me again." After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.
"
from Aikido Sangenkai
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:07 PM   #52
ksy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 52
Malaysia
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Depends on the situation, a comment from a Daito ryu group on one of O'Sensei's challenge matches:

Igor-san, I cannot present You the source right now, but I've heard that story in 1990-ties (where Internet was not developed yet so publicly), the content was more-less like that:
once one Japanese guy challenged UESHIBA Morihei for a fight, and UESHIBA has agreed. When that guy started to prepair his best stance for the fight, UESHIBA said "OK, attack me, I'm ready" and was just standing and looking on him. The guy said, "Please, prepair yourself for the fight, I cannot attack You because You're standing totally unprotected!" - but Ueshiba did nothing and had not changed his position. The guy asked again, "Please, don't stand like that, because it is actually too much dangerous for to be attacked", but Ueshiba did nothing again. Finally after the 3rd such a request, Ueshiba has kicked his balls and came away.


Also some of his prewar students have been said to have used kicks like Rinjiro Shirata - "His atemi (including kicks) came out of nowhere, perfectly timed and dead-on." from: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22687

and Minoru Mochizuki:

"When Tadashi Abe traveled he always carried a knife with him, this was not for his own protection, he carried it to hand to his shocked opponent, he would say "please, this is for you". Abe said that an opponent with his bare fists was no challenge, a man with a knife was "very interesting".

"According to Minoru Mochizuki...:

There was a man named Tadashi Abe who passed away recently. I had the following encounter with him when I visited the Iwama dojo to greet O-Sensei after my return to Japan when the war ended. O-Sensei was pleased to know that I had come back safely and welcomed me warmly. I stayed there over night. That night an evil-looking man with a monk-like hairstyle came to the room where I was staying and asked permission to come in. When I gave him permission this man came in.

"My name is Tadashi Abe. Sensei, could I ask you a direct question?". I told him to ask me anything. He asked if I was really studying aiki jujutsu seriously. At that time the art was not yet called aikido. When I replied I was, he said:

"Ace you really? I have heard about you, Sensei, for a long time. I heard that you have had experience in actual fighting situations. I think it is strange that a person like you feels satisfied with an art like aiki jujutsu." When I asked why he thought so he said that Ueshiba Sensei or Mr. Morhiro Saito would not be able to stand against him in a match even for three minutes because he would defeat them with one blow.

"You're quite boastful, aren't you?", I replied. "You feel confident that you can defeat Ueshiba Sensei?", I added. He said that he thought it would be easy for him to defeat Sensei and added:

"Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

I replied as follows:

"I have been in many street-fights but I wouldn't include them in the category of actual fighting. I have also drawn a sword and stormed the enemy camp."

Then he asked me whether or not aikido was really useful for fighting. When I replied that aikido was very useful not only for fights but also in times of war, he said my answer didn't convince him. So I suggested that he attack me and stood there telling him to come anyway he wanted. He asked me to adopt a ready stance. I told him:

"Don't say unnecessary things. There is no way for someone to defeat his enemy if he tells him what to do. Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange... You have openings everywhere..." Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

"How can a person like you who faints when he catches a little kick last in a fight?"

"Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?"

"You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war... an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word 'aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called 'aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki." "Is that so... I think I understand." "If you still don't understand, come to me again." After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.
"
from Aikido Sangenkai
pre war fight stories, pre war students who were already trained fighters. guns and artillery, hmmm... Just like Shioda using his back, if you are good enough, i guess your arse could be a weapon, aiki-arse . I could even be an aiki-ice cream eater. imho generalization could go too far sometimes. Nice story about Osensei kicking someone in the balls but afaik, O sensei was never famous for his kicking technique unlike Fong Sai Yuk with his 'shadowless kick'.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:41 PM   #53
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 297
Serbia
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote: View Post
pre war fight stories, pre war students who were already trained fighters. guns and artillery, hmmm... Just like Shioda using his back, if you are good enough, i guess your arse could be a weapon, aiki-arse . I could even be an aiki-ice cream eater. imho generalization could go too far sometimes. Nice story about Osensei kicking someone in the balls but afaik, O sensei was never famous for his kicking technique unlike Fong Sai Yuk with his 'shadowless kick'.
Only the one with O'Sensei was prewar and actually both prewar and postwar students were trained, mostly in Judo or Kendo of coursel, via school curriculum. Some others like Mochizuki were more heavily trained. The fact that O'Sensei wasn't "known" for a certain aspect of fighting in the conceptual sense as in other martial arts doesn't mean that he didn't apply those aspects when they suited him. Not to mention certain principles of Sokaku Takeda's Daito ryu:

Sokaku Takeda's Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu has three principles:

1. Don't stand in front of your enemy.
2. Crush him down to your feet, don't throw him away.
3. Use your legs to finish him.
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Old Yesterday, 03:21 AM   #54
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 189
Germany
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
[i]Igor-san, I cannot present You the source right now, but I've heard that story in 1990-ties (
That*'s the problem...
It's all storys.

With regards to Tadashi Abei, I also heard that he was a good fighter, and in his book he showed a lot of atemi techniques, including kicks.
But I practiced karate for some years, and I must say that the kicks are poorly executed.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote:
Use your legs to finish him.
Normally in daito ryu the legs are used to control uke, not to stomp him to dead.
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Old Yesterday, 04:39 PM   #55
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That*'s the problem...
It's all storys.
I really don't see the problem, two of them are from credible sources, John Stevens and Minoru Mochizuki, the one with O'Sensei wasn't even about the kick it was more about the attitude with which he fought. In fact all of those stories were more about the attitude of fighting rather than "what is and what isn't" Aikido. But I get your point, everything should be always taken with a grain of salt.

Quote:
With regards to Tadashi Abei, I also heard that he was a good fighter, and in his book he showed a lot of atemi techniques, including kicks.
But I practiced karate for some years, and I must say that the kicks are poorly executed.
Which book?

Quote:
Normally in daito ryu the legs are used to control uke, not to stomp him to dead.
It depends on who you ask, I got the info from here:
Hisa-den Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu

plus the version of sankyo done in my dojo is basically taking uke down, kicking him in the head, then applying sankyo. Of course you don't actually kick him in the head you just mimic it.
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Old Yesterday, 05:48 PM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Spain
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Which book?
https://es.scribd.com/document/11512...-Japonais-1958

Starting at p. 43.
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Old Today, 02:13 AM   #57
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 189
Germany
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I really don't see the problem, two of them are from credible sources, John Stevens
Maybe, but If you read his book "Abundant Peace" you know that there are some storys in it, that no one can really believe.
Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
taking uke down, kicking him in the head,
Original finishing technique was controlling the opponent
with the legs while having the hands free for cutting the throat or taking the head....
Finishing with a kick and than applying sankyo makes no sense

Last edited by MRoh : Today at 02:24 AM.
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Old Today, 10:51 AM   #58
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 297
Serbia
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Maybe, but If you read his book "Abundant Peace" you know that there are some storys in it, that no one can really believe.
I didn't read that book but yes I have heard of some of the more mythical stories.

Quote:
Original finishing technique was controlling the opponent
with the legs while having the hands free for cutting the throat or taking the head....
OK then.

Quote:
Finishing with a kick and than applying sankyo makes no sense
Well it's not finishing, the kick is basically an atemi. Similar to when Saito goes here with a punch, instead of a punch we go with a kick. The hand placement and movement is a bit different of course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m75lQ1oK0CU
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Old Today, 10:53 AM   #59
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Serbia
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Thanks Demetrio, the back kicks remind me of Savate.
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