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Old 07-12-2006, 09:50 AM   #26
Mato-san
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Re: Small movements

I posted big aikido vs small aikido and many ppl got me wrong. Small is the short cut and makes nice defence in a phone booth, but lets say the attack is huge, then the aikido is huge and very powerful. IMO why not learn both big and small, small has beauty and big has beauty too, dnoe correctly.In the street you might be faced with both big or small attacks.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:57 AM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Small movements

Have you ever tried small waza with big attacks? The effect can be quite startling.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:11 AM   #28
Amir Krause
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
I posted big aikido vs small aikido and many ppl got me wrong. Small is the short cut and makes nice defence in a phone booth, but lets say the attack is huge, then the aikido is huge and very powerful. IMO why not learn both big and small, small has beauty and big has beauty too, dnoe correctly.In the street you might be faced with both big or small attacks.
Sometimes, a large attack would require you to use larger movements. But in most cases, the small can remain small, and yet achieve as much as much larger movements.


Amir
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:51 PM   #29
David Yap
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Sorry David, I am not one of the newly promoted shodans... However, I will be at the other seminar on Saturday
You will get there eventually

Quote:
From your comments, the probability of meeting on the mat seems higher than I previously thought
Putting aside the politics amongst our teachers, the probability would be much higher

I got to meet Y's infamous Mr. Ong Eu Soon at a Horii shihan seminar couple of years ago - great character/uke Learnt great stuff from him - non-technique related though

Hope you will enjoy the other seminar this Sat...
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:18 PM   #30
kokyu
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
I posted big aikido vs small aikido and many ppl got me wrong. Small is the short cut and makes nice defence in a phone booth, but lets say the attack is huge, then the aikido is huge and very powerful. IMO why not learn both big and small, small has beauty and big has beauty too, dnoe correctly.In the street you might be faced with both big or small attacks.
In terms of movement size for techniques, I've read that it's better to start with big movements... somehow, someday, the movements become naturally smaller and smaller, but no less powerful... although you do have a point about practicing both ways
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:21 AM   #31
eyrie
 
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Re: Small movements

Ack! *cough (BS) cough *... That's a load of tripe. Stop believing that rubbish! Personally, I don't see the point in spending years programming the mind-body connection to doing one thing, and then changing it later on. It's not like a software upgrade.... ever upgraded say... Windoze? Ya know what I'm talking about!

Keep the movements small to begin with, and gradually add the "big feeling".

Ignatius
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Old 07-13-2006, 04:04 AM   #32
kokyu
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Keep the movements small to begin with, and gradually add the "big feeling".
Interesting... what does everyone else think?

The answers will probably affect my approach to training for the next year

As the Japanese would say, "Yoroshiku onegaishimasu"

Last edited by kokyu : 07-13-2006 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 07-13-2006, 04:29 AM   #33
Dazzler
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Re: Small movements

I think its easier to teach with big movements since students can see whats happening,

At the same time I wouldn't want to hold students back by making them do big moments when smaller will suffice.

I also think you shouldn't take too much notice of what is said on bulletin boards by complete strangers - there are more than enough partners on the mat to influence your practice. Take the questions from this board and get your seniors to work through the answers over time.

D
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:15 AM   #34
Mark Freeman
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Re: Small movements

My take on it is this:

in the early stages big movement is taught, for the purpose of understanding the principles of aiki, the body learns the relaxed movement, and this trains the mind to think 'big'. Later when the movement is 'embodied', smaller movements can be made with the body, while the mind continues the think 'big'. This is a never ending practice.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:26 AM   #35
David Yap
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Interesting... what does everyone else think?
I agree with Ignatius.

Soon Kian,
Perhaps, after my back injury gets better, we can get together on the mats to explore what've been discussed here. We (the students) normally have a forum-on-the-mat thing (sort of like a focus group) to share our knowledge. Most of us in the group have had trained with various instructors/shihans in our aikido paths both locally and abroad. Some of us even have 2 or more disciplines in other MA. No ego talks (brandness aikido without the politics) but good beers after the training/forum.

What say you?

Cheers

David Y
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:19 AM   #36
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Re: Small movements

IMHO, I believe in both. I think big movements are easier to see, understand, and perform in the beginning of Aikido. Later. I like them as small as possible.

I do agree in not training something you later want to change, but I see big-to-small and external-to-internal as on the same spectrum or learning curve. The technique is the same, but the refining is a continual process.

LOL, If my Sensei kept everything small while demonstrating, I don't think I would have see a thing.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-13-2006, 11:23 PM   #37
shaken
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Re: Small movements

Alotof good informative info especially from Mark. On other sites there has been differed opinions on Prof. Wally Jay's Small Circle Theory. He didn't reinvent this principle but just wanted to share a little info on " keeping it small."
Yea, it's good to practice say wrist throws with a bigger circle ( mainly for uki safety ) but in realtity, in the Bugei Arts- it's small.
In fact, a study of most do/jutsu arts will give examples of various size movements- each one interpretated by one's study and Sensei.
I'm just joining the talk here and sharing/getting knowledge from all and I seek obtaining much from all.
A quick example that I learned many years ago in the art of Tanto Jutsu- and with practice you'll see why- are principles of using a blade that can deliver much damage with minimal small circular movements. The same principles applied in Atemi-Waza are the same- if trained properly.
Hope to get some more good advice from everyone.

Bill Shovan
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:06 AM   #38
eyrie
 
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, I believe in both. I think big movements are easier to see, understand, and perform in the beginning of Aikido. Later. I like them as small as possible.
True. But one needs to understand the difference of exaggerating movement for demonstration purposes and not mistaking it for actual movement.

Quote:
LOL, If my Sensei kept everything small while demonstrating, I don't think I would have see a thing.
That's (an integral) part of the training isn't it? A test of observational skills....

Ignatius
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:21 AM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
My take on it is this:

in the early stages big movement is taught, for the purpose of understanding the principles of aiki, the body learns the relaxed movement, and this trains the mind to think 'big'. Later when the movement is 'embodied', smaller movements can be made with the body, while the mind continues the think 'big'. This is a never ending practice.
Hi Mark:

I don't disagree with what you said, in any respect, but in many ways the "big movement to small movement after you have practiced a lot" is true of many things... it's true of so many things, that one would wonder why you see the comments about "movement in stillness" all over Chinese and Japanese martial arts. My comment would be that there's a little bit more to it than that. If you learn to manipulate the forces and you learn to tension and release the fascia-structures in the body like "the string of a bow", you can do fairly strong/impressive techniques with little or no visible motion. Impressive enough that the discussions about "stillness in motion", etc., become important enough to mention.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:58 AM   #40
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Small movements

It is my own belief that the point of the larger movements of Aikido is twofold. First, you are training the body to respond expansively to conflict. Second, the connection between the sword and empty hand movement is readily experienced through large movement. It is not so apparent when the movements get smaller.

One of the principles I use when instructing is that a "large movement doesn't beat a small movement". Since time and space are connected concepts and size is another way of talking about space, a larger movement simply takes too long when used against a compact. This is where Aikido folks generally run into trouble when they try to do applied technique. Most martial arts folks simply do not attack with the large movements we use to train our basics. It's not that what we do doesn't work, it's just that we need t practive against more conventional attacks to learn how to apply the principles we have been studying.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:11 AM   #41
Mark Freeman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Mark:

I don't disagree with what you said, in any respect,
Hi Mike

I can safely assume that you agree with me then?

As I ended my post with "this is a never ending practice" I see the big to small as part of the roughly linear progress in understanding and using co-ordinated mind/body movement. My goal is less effort more effect, this I seem to be achieving through consistent practice of my teachers way.

My view is that the mind plays as big a part in aikido as the body. Co-ordination is not exclusive to aikido, and my experience is that aikido can only be done properly with mind and body co-ordinated. A rough approximation can be done without, but it depends on the relative co-ordination of the attaker.

I agree that 'there is more to it', it's what keeps me keen and dedicated. I want to 'know' what it is for myself.

Shame I could not make it to your UK seminar, I had an annual teachers course that fell on the same weekend. Maybe next time.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:15 AM   #42
kokyu
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
One of the principles I use when instructing is that a "large movement doesn't beat a small movement". Since time and space are connected concepts and size is another way of talking about space, a larger movement simply takes too long when used against a compact. This is where Aikido folks generally run into trouble when they try to do applied technique. Most martial arts folks simply do not attack with the large movements we use to train our basics. It's not that what we do doesn't work, it's just that we need t practive against more conventional attacks to learn how to apply the principles we have been studying.
I absolutely agree. I think we can see this sort of thing even in the irimi tenkan exercise. When the Sensei counts 1,2 (irimi, tenkan) slowly, it's possible to irimi a fair distance and make a big sweeping tenkan. As the Sensei speeds up the count, the irimi becomes less deep and the tenkan becomes a smaller and smaller circle. Thus, it all depends on the time (and space) that one has to respond in.

I was training yesterday against an uke with very fast tsuki... no time for big movements here
Unless... of course... I was reacting too slowly
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Old 08-02-2006, 05:22 AM   #43
David Yap
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Re: Small movements

Quote Master Wang Xiangzhai on Dachengquan (aka Yiquan):
Quote:
Self-defense - This combat. You should know that big movement is not as good as small movement, small movement is not as good as non-movement. In non-movement continuous movement is born. Movement which has visible form is expression of lack of proper force. The so called movement in non-movement is a movement as if without movement. Movement and non-movement are rooted in each other. The wonder of using it is based on using mind, mental induction, elastic use of the work of joints, stretching and contracting, firm support, the force of a screw, twisting around axis, moving the center of weight in stable way, using elastic power of breath. When someone can use it, he has basis for combat.

This sounds very abstractive. But there are many things which are difficult to explain using words. If someone practices diligently, he will easily achieve understanding. Distinguishing between big or small movement depends on mastering the basics - achieving practical perception of all kinds of force. When you master basics of using force of whole body, the movement can be big or small, it doesn't matter if movement is big or small. But if basics is not mastered, everything is wrong. The same with so called using force or not using force. People are usually unable to use force without disturbing flow of blood. Such force is stiff, not harmonious, it is not good for health. When you are able to get force without disturbing flow of blood, without excessive effort there appears force when you need to use it, this is natural force.

This is as if seeking miraculous but real things starting from empty ideas. It is difficult to express it with words. Summarizing, dachengquan is not based on beauty of external form, but on using mind. In short, if there is form, it is something not ripe yet. Only when the technique reaches level of doing it unconciously, the miraculous appears. This is what I'm talking about.
Sounds like and is applicable to aikido at the higher levels. Anyone here who practices internal CMA system (particularly Yiquan) to improve his/her aikido care to comment?

I've start with the "zhan zhuang" (pole holding) exercise and I find that my arms are more whippy

Best training

David Y

Last edited by David Yap : 08-02-2006 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 08:19 AM   #44
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Quote Master Wang Xiangzhai on Dachengquan (aka Yiquan):
Quote:
Self-defense - This combat. You should know that big movement is not as good as small movement, small movement is not as good as non-movement. In non-movement continuous movement is born. Movement which has visible form is expression of lack of proper force. The so called movement in non-movement is a movement as if without movement. Movement and non-movement are rooted in each other. The wonder of using it is based on using mind, mental induction, elastic use of the work of joints, stretching and contracting, firm support, the force of a screw, twisting around axis, moving the center of weight in stable way, using elastic power of breath. When someone can use it, he has basis for combat.

[[snip]] Summarizing, dachengquan is not based on beauty of external form, but on using mind. In short, if there is form, it is something not ripe yet. Only when the technique reaches level of doing it unconciously, the miraculous appears. This is what I'm talking about.

Sounds like and is applicable to aikido at the higher levels. Anyone here who practices internal CMA system (particularly Yiquan) to improve his/her aikido care to comment?
In my opinion, it's a pretty good summation, in that first part, of what the key body mechanics behind "small movements" really means. Unfortunately, it describes a process that happens over time and also which involves learning a few other skills to augment the procedure. The type of training that Rob John has learned via Akuzawa directly attacks *some* aspects of the training that Wang Xiang Zhai is talking about. It has to be noted that Yiquan (DaChengQuan) is in some ways a shortcut system, so it doesn't reveal the full extent of whatever Wang Xiang Zhai personally knew/practiced, so that's a factor when considering some of these revelations from Yiquan.

The greater point is that this whole idea of stillness in movement is in all the Asian martial arts, to some degree, and is certainly found in Japanese martial arts. Aikido done correctly would not need much input from currently available Chinese martial arts or other Japanese martial arts. What may have happened (my guess at the moment) is that O-Sensei restricted the "upper level" information and the worldwide Aikido organization grew quickly, leaving too few people who actually knew and leaving too many "teachers" who didn't know such information existed. Whether enough teachers make any whole-hearted attempt to recover this aspect of Aikido is something which is very interesting to watch!

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-02-2006, 08:56 AM   #45
Lee Salzman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Sounds like and is applicable to aikido at the higher levels. Anyone here who practices internal CMA system (particularly Yiquan) to improve his/her aikido care to comment?
The deeper I am getting into yiquan the more it is seeming like it is a totally different way of doing things than what might be useful for "internal" aikido. To do it as a supplement to aikido might be an injustice to yiquan.

The very basic standing has you learning to truly relax at a particular stopped point of movement, but that's only the beginning.

You then have to learn to coordinate all the muscles of the body along with the mind's intent to use them to make that "proper force". Improper force is if you were to just take your arm/fist, and clench it as tight as possible. The force goes nowhere, everything is fighting against itself, and if this clenching is everywhere then it may spread to the diaphragm too.

However, if you hold a palm out, and then press your fist/arm against your palm as hard as you can, the palm not letting your other arm move at all, you can generate the same amount of force, but now it has direction. If you suddenly pull your palm away, your fist will fly forward.

You're doing this in yiquan standing exercises, but by using the agonist-antagonist muscles (but without consciously doing so), and using every joint you can voluntarily control at once. You are then coordinating this with your "intent" to move in a certain direction, by pretending to move something in the distance, so that when your mind thinks "forward", eventually everything in your body can just go "forward" with as much force as you desire, without hesitation. All the while not letting it constrict the diaphragm or allowing anything else to clench without direction either. This gets practiced in all directions, twisting, shrinking, expanding, etc.

This is an exploration of the body's capability for generating force/movement at a particular example stopped point in movement ("non-movement"). To me, this just seems like something that is applicable to all athletics, not really aikido specifically, so YMMV.
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:15 AM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
The deeper I am getting into yiquan the more it is seeming like it is a totally different way of doing things than what might be useful for "internal" aikido. To do it as a supplement to aikido might be an injustice to yiquan.
Well, my opinion is that there are some somewhat different usages of the core principles in training and application, but the core principles are still the same. Someone understanding that and not just training rotely should be able to use Yiquan training to improve his Aikido, IMO.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:41 AM   #47
Lee Salzman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, my opinion is that there are some somewhat different usages of the core principles in training and application, but the core principles are still the same. Someone understanding that and not just training rotely should be able to use Yiquan training to improve his Aikido, IMO.

Regards,

Mike
I guess what I'm trying to get at is yiquan is science, and aikido is art. In yiquan, you're analyzing not only what your body is doing, but how you're training into the body what you want it to do, based on some very objective goals. Yiquan is very much larger than the study of how you might apply what you've cultivated to aikido, and the philosophy of it much more progressive and empirical. To apply it to aikido, the end result would be more of "yiquan expressed in aikido shape" rather than "aikido supplemented by yiquan", not only in techniques, but in the method of practice itself. That, and studying yiquan can take a lot more time and energy than aikido, so balancing the two I have found difficult, at least for myself, to the point where I am no longer even going to try.

Aikido: intuit the mechanics from repetitive practice of form.
Yiquan: understand the mechanics from the beginning, then train them into the body directly, so that no form is ever necessary.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 08-02-2006 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:58 AM   #48
Mike Sigman
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to get at is yiquan is science, and aikido is art. In yiquan, you're analyzing not only what your body is doing, but how you're training into the body what you want it to do, based on some very objective goals.
I dunno. I think there's a perfectly valid argument that Ueshiba could have taught "as a science" how to build up "internal" power. I just don't see how either style is more of an "art" or a "science" than the other, frankly. But each to his own view.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:21 PM   #49
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Small movements

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to get at is yiquan is science, and aikido is art. In yiquan, you're analyzing not only what your body is doing, but how you're training into the body what you want it to do, based on some very objective goals.
I guess I am with Mike here... The principles which govern Aikido can be taught and taught in a fairly systematic manner. This includes the principles of internal power which Mike talks about and it includes a number of other areas which, in my opinion are generally not well taught in most Aikido.

Aikido can't become an art until you have established mastery of the science.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:41 PM   #50
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Small movements

Well said George. I agree. Many of us spin our wheels for too long by trying to imitate the art (and the artists...) without going though the science and forging practice of principle.

Chuck Clark
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